MAJOR PUBLISHERS

Me thinks I'll stay well away from this thread.

I spent quite a lot of time reformatting Alice's posts (taking out double spacing and making the text follow on). Thanks a lot, Brenda! Boy do you make work for me! You've even got Don Stephens, Abe and Dick sticking up for you to boot! Sheeesh!

Shelagh wrote:

You've even got Don Stephens, Abe and Dick sticking up for you to boot! Sheeesh!

Well, add me to the list ... The original question was if a NY pub was worth the bother and Brenda just said yes. ??

BTW, Alice, you always say you're not a writer, but I daresay if Lane agreed he wouldn't have wasted his time editing your work. So keep at it, you have a chance, too.

LC wrote:

Shelagh wrote:

You've even got Don Stephens, Abe and Dick sticking up for you to boot! Sheeesh!

Well, add me to the list ... The original question was if a NY pub was worth the bother and Brenda just said yes. ??

The original question was: "I guess my point is--is it worth all the fuss and muss to get a major publisher for so little?"

Brenda just said yes:

Brenda Hill wrote:

I enjoyed kdu's post, as I did on AS. I didn't see where he said his writing was better than anyone's here. He simply disagreed with the article and gave the reasons why.

I'm certainly glad that in the beginning, when I was first learning to write, I was in the company of writers who knew publishing with the majors could be achieved rather than listen to some of you here.

We all know it can be achieved, I said as much in my reply. BUT that was not the question.

Brenda gave her usual sad sob story. It sickens me.

Ok, well, I don't have the history together that the rest of you do, so I saw her answer as benign. But then, I always look for the best in people.

In the August issue of the MWA Third Degree, Laurie R. King, who has had books in the top ten on the NY Times list, wrote a lengthy piece about the 15 weeks of concentrated effort she and a number of friends spent promoting her latest, which also made the top ten. Everything in The Third Degree is copyrighted but I don't think MWA or Laurie would mind if I quote her opening paragraph:
"These are tight days in the publishing world, when the gentleman's profession looks more like cable TV wrestling and every book sees months - years - of a writer's life teetering over an abyss. An ad, an interview, and a week touring bookstores just don't cut it in 2009."
Three other writers also added their marketing strategy.
And yet on some sites people contend that if you only get a major publisher they will do all the marketing and promoting work. The days when that was true are history.

An acquaintance reminded me of a special time in my life that led to today's blog at www.redroom.com . The blog has a section that seems applicable to our little group here. I'm posting it to see if you see some possible similarities about which we might ponder:

"Fiercely independent, the sailing community (that occasionally accepted a wayward stinkpot) would gather together to celebrate an occasion by bringing whatever they had stowed and prepare a hodgepodge feast of fun and camaraderie on the shore or the biggest yacht in harbor, often Lady Ace.

Invention saved the day. Something was always broken on a boat, and someone knew how to fix it. Bartering was not formal, it just happened with "pass it forward" the order of the day. Gossip filled the air as ships sailed in and out, but I never met a sailor I couldn't find a reason to respect regardless of differences that were often in extremes.

The beauty of the sailing community was the present. We lived in the present. Conversation wasn't about past accomplishments or future goals for wealth and position; no, conversation was about sailing skill, navigation, the beauties of the last port or the dangers of the next crossing. Differences in ship size, financial means, country of origin, or past sins were not on the table.

We had a special democracy that included flotillas when heading in the same direction or a tearful good bye when a yacht set out on its own path. A sailor in need was everyone's responsibility; we shared joys and sorrows, often unable to provide much but the best we had at that time."

Abe suggested going to lunch. I will always prefer finding common ground while still having heated discussions about differences; I will never believe in personal attacks. I do believe that words are as a friend of mine said about domestic violence, "the knives that go in the heart but are never removed, unlike bones and bruises that eventually appear healed."

The good, the bad and the ugly.

It was a pleasant 60 degrees this morning when I took my walk. I reflected on my trip to the States and on the various threads that turned ugly. I thought about Dick’s 84^th birthday, his long life, and of Lane’s untimely death. The response to Lane’s passing reflected all the good things about him. Why is it that we can only see the good in people when they are no longer with us? I have never attended a funeral where they talked about all the bad things the person did but rather the good. Of course there are exceptions where it is difficult to find something good to say about a person, and as Dick once remarked, “Some people are just plain rotten.”
Trying to ignore disparaging remarks is difficult and a response is often necessary. However, to dwell on vengeance is not only unhealthy but a waste of time and regretful. They may have pointed out a fault that we don’t want to admit and the tendency to defend it becomes a rift.
No, I’m not a psychologist. I just draw on years of experience in working and dealing with people of many cultures. Trying to understand why a person says or acts in a certain manner helps in how we choose to react.
On a forum such as this there are people of various backgrounds and their responses are based on their experience. With some it is extensive while with others it is limited. Many are sensitive and take well-intended remarks as derogatory especially when it is in a public setting. In my view, some remarks should be shared privately. No one wants to be publicly ridiculed. Defending one’s self image sparks discussions that turn ugly.
We are responsible for what we say and do. We cannot blame someone else for how we choose to react. Getting to know the person better can make a big difference in how we react.
In the case of those who prefer to remain anonymous, getting to know them is not relevant.

Brenda is not being chastised. Don't make Brenda a victim in all this. Every member here has offered support and encouragement to not just Brenda but every other member. I took the forum down because of Brenda. Carol hasn't the courage to resubmit her work because of Brenda. Alice deleted her posts because of Brenda. All this, because she wants to succeed morer than anyone else. C'mon! Give me a break! Why should we put up with this all the time? Why do I have to keep biting my tongue and not say what I really think? This is a list on Goodreads. Brenda wants to succeed more than I do? Where's the evidence?

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1425.Best_Literary_Fiction_

We should listen to DK and Abe. When there is a problem with someone, take it to the private board. The only exception, at least to me, is when someone deliberately tries to cause trouble. That doesn't mean people shouldn't speak frankly but personal remarks that are derogatory never result in anything good.

My little post from my blog was about a sense of community around a single common element. In 1988, all we had in common was getting from point A to point B and surviving. On this board, we have the love of writing. My comments have no particular people in mind. We all have our moments, just as another blogger I read alluded to her own frustrations with friends who were authors of various success levels not always exhibiting the most delightful traits.

I admitted that I felt my own ego scream out in defense based on comments made that were not intended to be harsh but were interpreted as such by me.

"All I know is in this moment." The hurricane scare at the moment seems to be small, and I'm going to get my house ready for the potential of worse. I need to protect those jump drives with next years blockbuster novel........

Clarification here: Thank you for your defense of me, Carol and Shelagh. The real reason I took down the writing posts had nothing to do with Brenda.

I posted them to show that Malcolm had a good idea. Lane and I both thought it was a healthy concept to get people to remember their fun Times. The name of the book was" The Fun Times."

Lane had forwarded to me a copy of his childhood memoirs, which he had written for his childen. He would not allow me to print it-- just read and delete. It was abysmal.

Some of you know my childhood was not idyllic. Sorry, Brenda my mother was very intelligent, but neither kind nor gentle.

I hope something stirred some good memories in Lane.

I am surprised by writers. Dick and Lane excepted here . A total lack of support and even touchiness abide.

Lack of sales is a problem--any mention of banding together to solve the problem is throughly squashed.

I have spent hundreds of dollars buying books and trying to support fellow authors.

It seems to have been for nought. The authors whose books I have invested in still have poor sales and I have a lighter pocketbook.

I am a problem-solver, brain-stormer and organzier. I am miserably direct.

Brenda, I made no comment on your writing. You took my support of Domenic to be a put down of your writing--just as you took dmondeo's
praise for Shelgah's book trailer to be so offensive.

My intention here is to offend no one--obviously impossible for me to do.

Hi DK,

Writers seem to be an insecure group of people, forever looking for reassurance that their work has merit.

I posted this comment in response to comments added to a blog post (taken from one of my posts here on the forum) that I added to the Visual Arts Junction blog:

In the past, reading fiction stimulated the mind and fired the imagination. Readers were inspired by their favorite authors and were eager to read the latest release. Not any more. Nowadays, having control over the characters and the plot lines is more fun than reading books written by someone else. Sitting in front of a computer and allowing your own imagination full reign while you type out your thoughts into a word processor is more entertaining than reading. Writing in the twenty-first century is becoming a recreational activity on a par with reading. Soon the most often asked question will not be, "What are you reading?" Instead it will be, "What are you writing?"

You can read the other comments here:

http://www.visualartsjunction.com

Recreational writers seem to get on with each other equally as well as sailors do. It is the ones with aspirations who seem to find interaction difficult.

What to me has seemed to be one of the problems, not only with Brenda, but with some others as well, is when they make the supposition that because some of us choose to seek other paths, we are somehow less dedicated and do not want success as much as they. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We want it, we just think there are other ways to achieve it.

Brenda believes, or seems to at least, that while there may be a few variations, the true path to writing success and to signing with a major publisher is the one she follows. That is to say, it is to study, work hard, seek an agent, write and send out hundreds of query letters and pile up hundreds of rejections while you hone your craft and wait for someone to ask you to sign on the dotted line. Brenda is talented, and perhaps she will attain that goal. I hope so.

Others believe that hard work and determination will be the path to success, and if you want it bad enough to do whatever it takes, that you will surely succeed.

Others, such as myself, face the reality that regardless of what we do we may never sign with a major publisher. I'm not guessing about that, by the way, it is a cold hard fact, and might as well have been handed down to Moses on the mount. Some people make it, some don't, and nobody can find a common denominator.

I have said that hard work, study, and all the rest can and will improve your chances, but nobody will admit that I've said that. I've said keep dreaming, don't give up hope, it may happen for you, but all I see is that I have tried to destroy the dreams and hopes of others. I've remained true to my belief that now and then something touches a certain person and rises them up above the crowd. It may be that the person has done all of the "right" things, but often those things don't come into play. Yet, some people will be the chosen ones, and will become the next Kings, Clanceys, and Rowlings.

Can we help our odds? I think so. Does that mean we will be one of the chosen? Not at all. Success stories in the publishing business are a dime a dozen. Failure stories are a dime a million.

I work at my writing. I write a lot, every day. I study, I read, I network at every opportunity. I promote everything I write to the best of my ability, and I never miss a chance to learn something new. I am well aware that good advice is something to be listened to. Self confidence has never been lacking in me, so I think I am a good writer, perhaps a great one, or perhaps a future great one. But I know that I am competing with millions of other talented writers, and that most of us will not become R & F. I am content to do my very best and let the chips fall where they may. If I don't make it to that major contract, I'll be disappointed, but I won't be devastated.

And that is all I ever caution people against. Not to become so involved with one dream that you will be destroyed if it doesn't come true. Don't stop dreaming, but do not become a slave to your dreams. You are the master, not them.

You are the writer, and all you can do is your best. If you can say that you have done that, then you will never have anything to apologize for.

Don,
I agree. We have goals that satisfy our needs. Our goals are personal. Sharing our goals often causes conflict as to which way is best. As writers, I think it is important to write in such a manner that is clear. When we fail to communicate our thoughts correctly, the fault is ours.

E.Don,

Well said--all we can do is, do our best. You have killed no one's dreams.

Writers are indomitable and intrepid.

I can honestly say my book was the best I could do.

At the time I wrote it, I was more dead than alive.

I don 't think I have a best seller in me.

I am, more like was, a speaker, not a writer.

Abe F. March wrote:

Don,
I agree. We have goals that satisfy our needs. Our goals are personal. Sharing our goals often causes conflict as to which way is best. As writers, I think it is important to write in such a manner that is clear. When we fail to communicate our thoughts correctly, the fault is ours.

Don, good post.

Abe, I agree. I have communicated incorrectly here many times and will say "huh?" who are they speaking to when they are speaking to me. Sometimes we make assumptions and again I say "we."

I do not believe anyone has disparaged Brenda's writing. I don't think anyone kills her dream.

But I agree with Don. I had a son who played percussion professionally for two years with Caesar's house band in the Poconos. Las Vegas was a dream for him. We have seen him play hundreds of times. I think he is a fantastic drummer and singer. After two years, he left and said he needed another job. Even when young he said he didn't have to decide to be a musician because he already was. We supported him in his dream. He tried and that was important to him, and if that is what Brenda is saying to us, that is a good thing.

But I have tried, it isn't there and never will be no matter how many books on writing I read. I know that. I accept that. And I love to write and will not stop.

I appreciate Brenda's support of me with Vanilla Heart and am sorry to have disappointed her when my writing wasn't good enough. But I also learned that writing from my heart was as important as getting my research "right," from their comments on the rejection being based on my being too "encyclopedic."

I do not bring this up to keep the fires burning. I bring this up in hopes we can come to some resolution so our conversations here can be constructive. I have learned a great deal from everyone.

Carol

CARRY ON--I AM NO LONGER A SPEAKER!!

The facts of the matter are-- I can barely speak.

I am everyone's dream come true -- a burden.

Just what eveyone hopes to avoid --I have achieved.

I don't even know how I did it.

Brenda, you win.

Brenda wins? Over my dead body!

Shelagh,

Don't give up your life for it--I am still alive --nowhere near dead and will probably live forever.

The doctors say I am very strong. I need some company as I journey through life.

You plucky Brits are the best.


Cheerio!

Carol and I will be over in May.

By the way--for those who have ever wondered who the 144,000 are--spoken of in the Bible--I know-- they are the chronically ill. Everyone dies from listening to them complain.

Just another fact from Crooker's deep well of knowledge.

Isn't there a way we can all win?

Shouldn't each of us be free to pursue our own goals?

Shouldn't we each be able to respectfully share our own thoughts and ideas?

There is only one thing I would reiterate, and that is that not being picked up by a major publisher, in and of itself, does not mean that a writer is less qualified, does not study the craft properly, or does not work hard enough.

There are only so many slots to be filled, and there are more qualified writers than slots.

But just because I say that does not mean that I do not wish any writer well who decides to focus solely on that goal.

Just me.

Ann

I declare a draw. Everyone is right. Nobody is wrong.


This thread is finished, okay?

Carol Troestler wrote:

I appreciate Brenda's support of me with Vanilla Heart and am sorry to have disappointed her when my writing wasn't good enough.

Carol

Carol, please, you've never disappointed me. That's the second time you've said something like that. I've looked over my posts to you and checked through our personal emails and I can't find where I ever even hinted I was disappointed in you or with your writing. I may have sympathized because I know how a rejection letter feels, but I've never been disappointed.

As I've said before, if you want to resubmit, by all means, do so.

I've started a new thread on the Publishers Board:

http://www.publishedauthors.org/publishers-f5/major-publishers-t3047.htm#46700

This thread is finished.

What this thread needs is a lit............. Oh where has everyone gone? Late again oh bugger! I missed it.