Zimmerman -Not Guilty – Trayvon Dead - How It Feels

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                                                               Joe..

Read the opening post.

I am sorry for everyone in this unfortunate incident.   VERY SORRY!

DT's opinion is just that, his opinion. No better or no worse than any of the rest of us. As Joe said and as I have said, none of us were there, so we don't really have any idea what really went down. And no, Alice, it's not a kid thing to do drugs. Not a normal, sane kid that is.

It is a normal teenage and early 20's thing to "experiment" and "take risks."  Those experiments and risks are determined by many factors.  It doesn't mean that our generation approves their risky choices; our generation had a different set of risks.  Most of the young men in my generation went to Viet Nam and many that came out were or became alcohol and drug addicted from injuries to the mind and body. Without the Viet Nam war, who knows what that generation of young men would have pursued - I think this country would be different - how - don't know.  It was shaped by that war just as the previous generations were shaped by WWII.  Wars provide an arena for young men to take risks.

Today's generation of youth are entirely different from any other.  Participation in War is a choice.  Technology is influential.  Poverty is rampant.  Jobs have been scarce.  Education is no longer affordable.  Families are fractured, blended or some variety.  Churches and service organizations are full of old people. Information overload and transience are norms. A vision of home ownership, a boat in the yard, and a hunting cabin is distant if at all there.  Youth are marrying later, having children later and choosing not to have children (dogs instead).  There's a definite divide between the have and have nots and the bridge for upward mobility is longer and rickety.  It's an instant gratification generation schooled by the Internet and technology.  Though I understand the forces, I find it impossible to understand how our youth think.  The young people I know range from the perfectly focused students with goals to the fractured, undecided lost and from those with manners and grace to those with neither.

Youth is a time of revolution, in this country and in others.  It may be a personal revolution of ideas and behaviors or one that challenges a society.  Clothing style, piercings, tattoos and more represent these revolts and reaching for identity.

It is still our responsibility as adults to protect our youth so when they come out the other side, they have the chance to become productive citizens of this great country that allows for differences and choices.  We have no greater gift to society than guiding, protecting and nurturing our youth. They are our legacy.

DK, 

I agree.

I learned to not judge a young person by their appearance.  One of the scariest persons I ever encountered was  a young man in a hospital--a worker, no less. He had body piercings, weird hair and was very intimidating.  He was drawing my blood.  I talked to him .and told him my medical history.  With tears in his eyes , he said, " Lady I am going to pray for you."   No preacher has ever spoken as kindly and encouragingly as he did that day . 

Our children looked weird as teenagers.  Thank God , no one shot them.   
Teenagers are not normal.  Their hormones are raging and they know everything.  Some of the brightest and best people were intolerable teens.

Our children are our future.

I am sorry about Zimmerman's situation also.   His life is ruined.  His poor parents are having a time and not a good one. This is a sad story.
We  can learn  from it though. Zimmerman should have known this from Kindergarten:
Stay away from strangers!

I agree with what DK and Alice said.

If you guys think drug use today is normal teenage activity, then you've got a screw loose somewhere. The stupid stuff that's on the streets right now is a lot different from a little weed or a few beers, and that's what they experimented with during the Vietnam era. I think you are willing to dismiss anything and everything this Martin kid might have done because you are so filled with hate for Zimmerman. It's understandable not to want to see a young man killed, it's not understandable to turn a blind eye to the true reason he got killed. He was over 70 yards away from Zimmerman and then went back and attacked him. He should have gone home. His problem was he thought he was a big tough "gangsta" and he went back because he intended to beat the hell of that "cracker." Turns out the cracker had other ideas. Zimmerman was trying to do what he thought best for the neighborhood, Martin was a typical young thug who thought he was a bad ass. The jury saw that, I think, and so did a lot of other people. You folks are living in a dream world, you just don't know it. Anyway, this is it for me. It's impossible to explain things to people who don't have the capacity or the streets smarts to understand it. Actually, I hope you never have the opportunity to see that world up close, cause it ain't nearly as pretty or as black and white as you think it is.

I respect your opinions Don, but as stated previously, they are opinions.  Trying to make analogies with previous times can also be misleading.  How kids think today are not all that different from days past, however conditions have changed.  Instead of using fists, as in our days as kids, the kids now use guns.  Getting rid of anger is not the same.  We are conditioned by the environment in which we live.  As a kid, I heard the word, "Nigger" often.  It was a word used to denigrate another person.  I never met a black person until I was in the USAF.  As it turned out, one of my best friends was black.  My attitude changed.  I have had a change in attitude often during the course of my life.  That change occured based on experience, i.e., my attitude concerning the Israelis and the Arabs.  My attitude on religion also changed.  Having been brought in a fundamentalist home, it was a drastic change.  Trying to explain a change in attitude is not possible with a few words and when one states their position/opinion, it can be misconstrued.  I think it wise to give everyone the benefit of doubt and realize that opinions have some base of origin. JMO

IF Zimmerman was trying to do what was best for the neighborhood, he would have let a real cop handle the situation. 

Don't worry, E. Don, I do not wish to have the capacity to understand the justification for killing a minor.

I do not hate Zimmerman.  I feel sorry for him.

I value young people over older ones.

I am biased---in favor of the young.  They need to be given time to develop judgment.

I am a former School board  Chairperson and feel duty bound to side with the student.


Here are a few stats on drug use.  Wouldn't want to see all of these kids killed.

 http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/08/22/many-teens-drinking-taking-drugs-during-school-survey

There is no room in my heart for hate or its many manifestations though I remember what it felt like and am glad I moved in a different direction.

I respect that each person's opinion comes from their experience, education and capacity to learn. 

I also recognize that when people hold to a point of view, unwavering, they may get emotional when that perspective is challenged and defense mechanisms may lead to throwing word stones.

I don't think it's necessary to categorize people with different points of view as "screw loose" or "living in a dream world" or "don't have the capacity or the streets smarts to understand it" or "never have the opportunity to see that world up close, cause it ain't nearly as pretty or as black and white as you think it is." It is appropriate to state the facts that lead to a different opinion.  

Last I was tested, all my screws are tightly turned, my world is often painfully real as well as my capacity and street smarts, and I have seen the entire world up close (except Alaska, Antarctica, India and Russia) and never found it to have as many clear cut rights and wrongs as I would prefer.  I tend to think this applies to most of the thoughtful people who post in this forum.  After barbs are thrown, walking away is a safe way to remain unchallenged.  

The value of a forum is different opinions and fair discussion.  I was very maligned by Facebook posters' crude sexual innuendo and more during the election because I stated facts some people did not want to hear.  Those people who ranted at me found throwing out crude remarks easier than using real facts instead of learned rhetoric. They purposely attempted to demean me because that tact provides a weak target. Instead I was shocked by the online behavior of grown men for whom I previously had respect. 

Demeaning other human beings starts small.  Once accepted however, it grows. Perhaps in some people's lives it's okay.  In mine, I respect a person who dares express viewpoints different from others.  It does not mean if they think differently from me that they are deficient.  They just see the world differently from me.  Imagine the boredom in a world of cloned thinking!

Thanks DK for your thoughtful remarks.  Discussing problems with people who allow you to express your views is wonderful.  Trying to have a conversation/discussion with someone with a closed mind or preconceived ideas is a waste of time and often leads to disharmony.   Presented with facts (as you referenced) can enlighten.  Presented with opinions based on hearsay or with an ulterior motive is nonsense and it is best to avoid conversations with these people.  Of course that is easier said than done.  When challenged or when presented with false statements, we feel the need to respond.

7/28/2013

                  It was a horrible tragedy no matter who was right or who was wrong. I feel
                  he shouldn't have had a gun, call the police and let them handle it, that's
                  what I would have done....

                                                                     Cheers..Joe...

joefrank wrote:

7/28/2013

                  It was a horrible tragedy no matter who was right or who was wrong. I feel
                  he shouldn't have had a gun, call the police and let them handle it, that's
                  what I would have done....

                                                                     Cheers..Joe...

 Thank you,  Joe,  That summarizes my feelings exactly.

Me too.

I apologize.  Out of 90 posts here, I made 28.  I deeply admire E. Don and am glad he came here and  shared his opinions.  

I like everyone  and don't care whether you agree or disagree with me. 

It was an interesting discussion and I hope no ones feelings were hurt.
 Mine were not and I hope I didn't offend anyone. 
 
A lot of people read this thread.   It would be fun  to know what they think.  

7/28/2013

                     Now if we can only figure a way to straighten out our politicians,
                     we would be doing good......

                                                              Cheers...Joe...

Democracy needs an informed electorate.    We must demand  honesty in news reporting. 
The reason we are still  arguing the Z case is because we have been biased by our news. 
None of us know for certain the facts.

Thanks for making my point Alice.  It's amazing how angry opinions were directed at me when I basically repeated what many have said - the information on which to base a judgment was inadequate.

 I also suggested that teenagers and young people have behaviors unique to their age that they will usually work through on their path to adulthood.  Adults are supposed to be wiser.
 
 I think the thread provided a spirited debate.  I could have done without the name-calling bits, but then different people have different ways of making their point.

 I am always happy to be challenged by people with different points of view.

Wow, it's amazing what happens to a thread when you're away from it a while. Look there is very little that's new under the sun. Kids were drinking codeine cough syrup when I was in high school in the 70's, back then they were drinking Robitussin, now they call it something else, it's still codeine cough syrup. While all of this was going on on this thread, I've written another book and sold over 700 ebooks in July. I have another book 3/4 finished. I like debate and look at things from only one angle, someone that is minding their own business should not end up dead when they are walking home regardless of how they look, what they're wearing or what suspect group someone else thinks they belong to. Unless you are an officer of the law leave other citizens alone that aren't bothering you, unless they are in the act of "actually" committing a crime, not looking like you think they're going to be up to something because that's insane.

Quote :

Unless you are an officer of the law leave other citizens alone that aren't bothering you, unless they are in the act of "actually" committing a crime, not looking like you think they're going to be up to something because that's insane.

That's exactly what they do on Chicago's South Side. See, "actually committing a crime" is so open to interpretation with some demographics that even when someone is getting beat down, they don't recognize it as a crime anymore. Which explains their neighborhoods. 

And while this thread was going on, I finished a book, submitted it to my publisher, am working on another book for another publisher due in January, and am in talks with two other publishers for three other books. Some of us can do that, too.

And I finished two books and a screen play, none of which exploited anything other than my own imagination.

The point of a neighborhood watch is not to leave other people alone, but to do what you can to prevent crime in your neighborhood. Are you saying that's a bad thing?

I don't recall the South Side of Chicago being in this discussion, and if "some demographics" is your new code word, just say what you mean, and who are you talking about recognizing something as a crime, the police or other criminals, there is a distinction. By the way who is "us"? As for exploitation, that only seems to come up when certain views go counter to the thinking of the way some would like it to be.

The point of a neighborhood "watch" is to "watch" and not interfere with law abiding citizens that have just as much right as the "watch" captain to be there because they are the guest of someone living there. Zimmerman fulfilled all of his duties of being a "watch" captain when he called the police and they told him that when he was told, you don't need to do that in relation to following a 17-year old kid.

Trying to be vigilant and prevent crime in your neighborhood is a good thing, but when vigilant becomes vigilante towards people that are doing nothing, we have a problem. It's ironic that there is only one letter difference between those two words and it makes a world of difference in how we treat each other, because some have a notion that they hold a higher mantle of legitimacy than some other citizens when in truth we are all equal with the same right to be unencumbered when we are minding our own business and not infringing on someone else.

It's good to see people be productive.

7/30/2013

                             DT...

                                    Great Post !.......... 

                                    Cheers..Joe..

DT wrote:

The point of a neighborhood "watch" is to "watch" and not interfere with law abiding citizens that have just as much right as the "watch" captain to be there because they are the guest of someone living there. Zimmerman fulfilled all of his duties of being a "watch" captain when he called the police and they told him that when he was told, you don't need to do that in relation to following a 17-year old kid. 

Bingo!