The Jesus Birther

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Dom said:

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King James came out with the first bible in book form.

It was written
from the scrolls. It should match the scrolls, but much has been
changed. When the Dead Scrolls were found, these matched the scrolls.

Ricardo the "Texan" said:

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The first Bible in book form. Curious. I had no idea Herr Gutenberg spoke and printed English. Live and learn.

Dom said

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Well said Tex.

Ricardo the "Texan" said:

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The Bible. As an astoundingly well-read person, critic, and storyteller,
as well as a man of impeccable taste and an objective judge of literary
merit, I maintain that forty thousand Shakespeares would not have been
enough to write the Bible, even if they had Alexandre Dumas and Leo
Tolstoy to help them. That said, you have to consider the epoch. Doubly
impossible, then. Ergo, Divine Dictation rules. To be sure, there are
some human insertions here and there. They serve a whole bunch of
purposes, but that's a whole different story.

Rick, I have the hardest time figuring out what you mean by the words you write. It looks like I'm not the only one

As for the rest of this off-topic nonsense, it's no laughing matter

Ann

Domenic,

Neither DT nor President Obama have claimed they were discriminated against because of race.

DT has said President Obama was/is and I agree. No other President has had his birth so scrutinized.

As far as his personal beliefs go--he is entitled to them as are you.

I don't understand the gay issue either. Clearly gay is abnormal anjd not recommended by the Bible. I don't want children being taught about it.

I am sorry sex cannot be a private matter--seems like something ought to be.

I would prefer that the children be taught that for reasons not understood, some people are gay. They should not be hated or mistreated.

Most of the current archeological research seems to indicate that the earliest homo sapiens came from the African continent and were likely dark in all respects as protection from the equatorial sun. With migration came evolutionary adaptations to the climate, foods and lifestyles that have led to the diversity in the world today.

The history of humankind is full of enslavement as a spoil of war, a binding agreement, a means to govern a conquered people. It doesn't make it right. The United States were founded on some higher ideals. Like all people with a selfish purpose to serve, the proponents of slavery found "reasons" to justify their behavior.

It's easy to say "all is well now; forget that part of our history." Trauma is not forgotten regardless of the improvements. There will always be people who judge based on irrational stereotypes and biases and who treat people less than equal for economic, religious, political and ethnic reasons.

It takes a partnership of learning to find our common values and the human core that binds us all to overcome historical hatreds and the behaviors that result. Sometimes, we have to be face to face with issues before we can improve them.

I do not agree with any classifications of people by ethnicity since we are all uneven mixtures and citizenship pride is born of claims as an "American" as opposed to identifying with an ethnic background. However, for many people, their personal pride includes both: their personal characteristics and the country in which they now live. That's our choice as citizens of the U.S. - we have many choices worth protecting. I just don't have the right to think more or less of a person beyond how their behaviors impress me.

I have been the only white girl in a working environment of people from many different ethnic backgrounds. I felt different. I had feelings I still cannot define. That's why we have Chinatown and Japanese Town and Korea Town in our big cities. No matter our roots, absolute comfort is easiest in the familiar.

Absolute comfort is not what I seek. I want to broaden my perspective and challenge who I am and how I believe. I want diversity, not sameness. I am also proud of my country for its past inclusionary ideals and for its struggle to be a great land still for everyone here.

Ann,
I too tried to make sense of Ricardo's post. We're supposed to be writers here.
Clarity is not too much to expect.

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dtpollard wrote:

I will leave the Bible alone. As for the race of the President, I will make a statement. It is not easy to escape this country's history on how people were classified for racial purposes. It was once written into law that anyone of mixed parentage of black and white parents were considered black and that practice continued after the laws were changed. For some to pretend when convenient that the President is not black is being less than true to the racial history of the United States. In addition, President Obama himself has stated that he considers himself to be black/African American.

It is interesting (and I posted about this on the Obama birth certificate thread) how the first non-white president is the only one to have his citizenship questioned. Could his non-white ethnic surname have anything to do with it, as well?

As far as children of mixed race goes ... I refuse to choose just one. I consider myself multi-racial and multi-cultural. I come from a multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-cultural family and I embrace and love that we have difference views and backgrounds.

Me too!

A friend and I had this discussion the other day. When they type blood, it's a letter of the alphabet, not a race, religion, ethnic origin or eye color. Many lives are saved because generous human beings donate the the body parts of their dead loved ones. The recipient isn't asking the history of the donor; the donor isn't specifying to whom a life saving organ is going.

However humans came onto this earth, they came with the same parts, two of many. Not only did they come with the same parts, but some of them can be transferred to another person to save a life. What a miracle! What a plan! What a brilliant Creator who planned all this.

For those that believe, a soul is nestled in that body and connected to the Creator and all other humans across the globe. What a concept! And the earth has all the resources needed to nourish both.

And then we have the free will to mess it all up.

[quote="Domenic Pappalardo"]

dtpollard wrote:

I will leave the Bible alone. As for the race of the President, I will make a statement. It is not easy to escape this country's history on how people were classified for racial purposes. It was once written into law that anyone of mixed parentage of black and white parents were considered black and that practice continued after the laws were changed. For some to pretend when convenient that the President is not black is being less than true to the racial history of the United States. In addition, President Obama himself has stated that he considers himself to be black/African American.[/quote]

The president, and those who see a difference in color, keep an issue that is dead, and past alive. You may leave the bible alone, but I won't.
We all came from Adam, and Eve. Please, tell me what color were they? God created color in everything, even humans...would you rather we all look alike?
The issue of blacks being slaves in America was before my time. Matter of fact, my mother and father came to this country as babies in 1914. They had no part with the slave issue. If you, and Obama have an issue with it, you should dig up the graves of those who did it, and put the blame where it belongs.
I do know it was African blacks who took other African blacks, and sold them as slaves...why not start there?
It is people like you dt, and Obama who hold the past up and shout, "Look what you white people did to me," bull shit.
When you first started posting this thread, I saw where you were going. You sir, are, and, uphold the thing you claim too detest.
It is because of people like you, and Obama, the past is not held responsible to those in the past. Would you also blame those yet unborn? Your issue is stupid. Anyone who feeds it is not a person of God. You Sir, are prejudice.
You smile to those of different color, but you carry hate in your heart. Yes, I see why you leave the bible alone...maybe you should read it, and see Gods view on your thinking...you won't like it.

I have to say that race is a tough issue for Americans to discuss. There is the past and there is the present. The present is shaped by the past. In my lifetime I started school in a separate but unequal Jim Crow school in Texas for the first and second grade, went to a separate public park for blacks only and watch movies from the hot and smokey balcony that blacks sat in at the local movie theater and that was the law of the land. That law was changed when the civil rights act was passed but attitudes change slower than the law. So excuse me if I have a sensitive area of awareness when it comes to what seems like a sudden concern for the birthplace of the President when he happens to be the first non white person to hold the office.

Graves don't have to be dug up, because some of the current actions and words show that the ghosts of the past are roaming the land today.

Dear DT,
I am glad that I, personally, was not responsible for that. I remember those times, too. I remember the kindness.

Love,
Betty

DT, we both grew up in Texas at the same time. I remember the situations you speak of, from the other side. I saw these things, and asked questions, but never really got straight answers, so I remained unfortunately ignorant. I thank God for the Civil Rights Movement, and for several brave young students who spoke out about their side of the issues while I was in college classrooms - the first integrated classes I had ever attended. I hope you will forgive my selfishness as I tell you that those classrooms changed me, at least in part, because, when I realized how many of those students were not only as smart as I was, they were smarter. In some ways, my thinking changed because I didn't want to think of myself as being less intelligent than other white people. That, I'm afraid, was a part of what taught me that it was the premise itself that was wrong.

During those years, because of those students, I experienced my own paradigm shift into a new reality. That new perspective has taken a long time to become fully realized, and every once in a while, like now, for instance, I find my eyes are opened even wider as I realize this worldview is still not a complete reality.

The election of President Obama has brought a few creatures out from the woodwork and into the light of day. In the long run, this exposure will surely help to complete the shift.

You are a gentleman, sir, and I respect you. I am very glad that you post here.

Ann

alj wrote:

DT, we both grew up in Texas at the same time. I remember the situations you speak of, from the other side. I saw these things, and asked questions, but never really got straight answers, so I remained unfortunately ignorant. I thank God for the Civil Rights Movement, and for several brave young students who spoke out about their side of the issues while I was in college classrooms - the first integrated classes I had ever attended. I hope you will forgive my selfishness as I tell you that those classrooms changed me, at least in part, because, when I realized how many of those students were not only as smart as I was, they were smarter. In some ways, my thinking changed because I didn't want to think of myself as being less intelligent than other white people. That, I'm afraid, was a part of what taught me that it was the premise itself that was wrong.

During those years, because of those students, I experienced my own paradigm shift into a new reality. That new perspective has taken a long time to become fully realized, and every once in a while, like now, for instance, I find my eyes are opened even wider as I realize this worldview is still not a complete reality.

The election of President Obama has brought a few creatures out from the woodwork and into the light of day. In the long run, this exposure will surely help to complete the shift.

You are a gentleman, sir, and I respect you. I am very glad that you post here.

Ann

Ann, when I wrote the book Obama Guilty of Being President While Black, I put my experiences growing up in the book because I knew the playing field that he was on. I also reprinted the Jim Crow laws in the book to lay down a historical perspective of how prior laws of the land regarded someone who was now President of a nation that once had those laws on the books two generations ago. Barack Obama had about 70 million votes and most of those were from people of a different race/color than he was. There were about 60 million that voted for John McCain. Most probably voted the way they did because of their political leanings, but some, and I don't know the number, had other issues stirred up within them and could not accept who emerged as the new President as their President. That to will pass.

I knew Obama would go through what he has because he was the first to be different. Political differences are expected, but the attacks on the essence of the person, the citizenship and patriotism go somewhere else.

Quote :

Political differences are expected, but the
attacks on the essence of the person, the citizenship and patriotism go
somewhere else.

Amen to that!

Ann

alj wrote:

Quote :

Political differences are expected, but the
attacks on the essence of the person, the citizenship and patriotism go
somewhere else.

Amen to that!

Ann

Add my Amen. also! DT is right!

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We all have filters through which we see the events around us. Sometimes, we are able to remove them. Sometimes, we cannot. Those filters, or paradigms, insure that no two people come away from the same experience - with the same experience.

Credit goes to those on this post with such divergent experiences and filters for hearing each other and attempting to explain feelings that are personal and complex.

Understanding each other's filters is a step toward real knowledge. Knowledge is a step toward enlightenment.

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Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

dt,

I understand peoples hurt. I understand how that hurt is passed from generation to generation. I understand right, and I understand wrong. I also understand we are responsible for our own actions…those actions if bad, can not be blamed on bad action of others on us.
I grew up most of my life in California, not the deep south. I have listened to people of color blaming their color for everything, from losing their jobs, to warts on their nose, to corns on their feet.
At the start of the Civil War, there were (1860) some four million slaves in the southern States. During the Civil War, approximately 360,000 Northern Union white troops died to free those four million. I have yet to hear one person of color express appreciation to, and sorrow for the death of those who died to free them.
I grew up in Oakland California…it is a dangerous place. People are killing for no reason daily. Several citizens (people of color) were interviewed on the street for the local news. All of them said the same thing…(“Well when people lose their jobs, they are forced to do things they would not normally do.”) That is wrong thinking. People are responsible for their own actions. Being poor, having bad parents, etc, are no excuse to do bad. Prejudice is a bad action. There is no excuse for it.
You said you leave the bible alone…you should read it. Satan’s number one tool is divide, and conquer. Divide by color, divide by material things, divide by position, divide by location, divide, divide, divide…wake up.
You talk prejudice, and some kid gets a gun a kills another kid. That makes you a link in a murder…wake up.

I think you need to be more careful with your words and read closer. I said I was leaving the bible out of this discussion going froward. 2. When you ramble on about someone being a link in a murder, that's a bridge too far. When you speak of not hearing a black person thank those that died to free them then you have a dim view of history. Americans fought against each other when one region decided it would rebel and become its own country. Many African American died in the Civil War fighting for their own freedom along with Union soldiers. many Confederate soldiers died also. More died after slavery when oppressive Jim Crow laws were imposed. Many died in lynchings etc. Americans fought and died to more fully realize what was already written in the Constitution. Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and is revered for the decision he made to end slavery as are those that died carrying out his orders. Every time you see a descendant of a slave walking free in this society they are the thanks for the sacrifice. I am not the custodian of everyone out there doing wrong, but my son is a military man.

That is part of the reality of this nation's history. I have never used race as an excuse for anything, but that does not make me blind that some use it as a factor in how they view and treat someone. Sometimes the mirror is the best place to look before advising others on what to do.

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Unfortunately, this thread has personal attacks that cause it to lose credibility, at least for me. I guess it is a good thing Mitt Romney wasn't elected. Could you imagine the firestorm that would have created.

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

Follow your own path. Be who and what you are, not who you think you are.

Lincoln made slavery an issue 2 years after the war started...to keep England from entering the war on the side of the south. Also many African slaves fought on the side of the Confederate States.
As to Jim Crow, my last book, is about the white, and the black Jim Crow's.
As too your warning about being careful with my words... I have no fear speaking against people who are prejudice, against those who spread their feelings in the form of hate, and wear white robes. You need more than a mirror to see who you think you are.
I say again, prejudice is bad, and you stink of it.

For someone defending the birther position to accuse another of stinking of prejudice takes a creative path, but I am not going to burn this forum down engaging with someone that resorts to vile attacks and character assaults when unable to defend his position. You can take whatever stance you like, but I know the path I have taken was not built upon the pain and degradation of others. You seem to revel in the role of judge of others souls. It is nice to know that the almighty has such an able assistant in that area. For me I will leave the judging of the hearts, souls and minds of my fellow man,who is my equal, to a higher power.

Slave or enslaved.

A definition of a Slave is someone who is the legal property of another or others and is bound to absolute obedience, a human chattel.

Many of the early immigrants to America had to work off their passage as bonded servants. They were enslaved until the debt was paid. Slavery, referenced in this thread, is characterized as a color thing. People of means in many lands had servants. Often they were prisoners of war sold into slavery. Some of my ancestors were indentured servants and had to work off their passage by ship. They were slaves until the debt was paid, however there was light at the end of the tunnel, in that they would be free when they had worked off their debt. Without a chance for freedom, slavery is a bad thing. Thomas Jefferson had servants (slaves) that were treated well. Being labeled as slaves had to do with ownership. Doing menial tasks as a matter of choice, is not slavery. Being owned by someone with no choice is slavery and that has nothing to do with color. In some countries, even today, young girls are sold as sex slaves.

I grew up in the north. People of color were referenced as coloreds or niggers. In my youth, I thought the term nigger referenced the color of the skin; however there were some who referenced whites as niggers if they were considered lazy. As I grew up, I realized that many of the Negroes couldn’t find work, simply because of their color. Sitting around doing nothing gave the appearance of being lazy, but that was far from the truth. If nigger refers to being lazy, then many whites were niggers. The Niger River is the principal river of western Africa. It is possible that slaves from this region were referenced as Nigers. The word "negro" means "black" in Spanish and Portuguese, from the Latin niger ("black") and Greek Νέγρος Négros ("black").
I don’t believe that the term was originally intended to be derogatory. Labels are offensive, especially when they are used to stereotype.

When I joined the Air Force, I met my first Negro person. He was smart and athletic. We became best friends. In Europe, we traveled together and also competed with one another as members of the Air Force base track team. We both attended the University of Maryland’s Night School on base. When he left the USAF, he completed his college education and went on to get a PhD. His name is Leon Burrell. I’m not certain, but I think it was his son who excelled in the 1966 Atlanta Olympics.

That’s my take on the issue. I have eyes and can see. I can still distinguish white from black and red from blue. To say I don’t see color is dumb. Of course you see color unless you are clinically color-blind.

There is no such thing as white supremacy to a jazz pianist. We have Art Tatum to keep our minds straight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ciyjQVydLc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Cs_zb4q14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKb0Sc2lYVU

He's amazing. Makes one sit in awe.