History of Religion(s)

Elf,
I think that you have a good handle on things.

JoElle I like the way that you think. I choose to beleive that the world and people in it are doing their best with what they have and with what they know, for the most part. Our time here on the planet is short, but our footprints are big, and so I want to do the best I can to prepare if for the people who follow after us. Not just for my own kids, but other folks' kids too.

Abe F. March wrote:

Good points Gordon.


. As you know, the jews don't forgive or forget.

I was born Jewish although after my barmitzvah I could no longer adhere
to the religious aspects like being taught Hebrew by rote like a
parrot, not understanding a single word I was spouting and when the
Cohanim turn their backs on the congregation and you're not supposed to
look at them or hear them, I was the 8 year old who ran up, looked up
at them and said words to the effect of, ''Ere, what you doing?" it
didn't go down too well with the elders anyhoo, perhaps Abe you'd
care to expand on your 'Jews don't forgive or forget!'

Excuse me while I find my horns! Perhaps a word here, as a sprog in a
small seaside town in south west England the natives believed all Jews
had horns, we told them we don't wear them in public!!!!

Good point Rick! We do tend to lump people together. In the United States, people from the North (especially New England) regard people from the South as inferior slaveholders and people from the South see the Northerners as elitist, snobbish, and greedy.

There's still a "north and south" divide in the UK. Northerners(south of Scotland) are seen as being lazy, hard-drinking, long-term unemployed, working-class "Geordies" who are all children of former miners. Southerners are referred to as effete, decadent "southern poofters" by comparison.

Forgiveness doesn't come come easy to any of us and the Jews have been persecuted for years -- hence the tag about fogiving and forgetting. It's a myth but ethnic humour reinforces common misconceptions.

Shelagh wrote:

Good point Rick! We do tend to lump people together.
In the United States, people from the North (especially New England)
regard people from the South as inferior slaveholders and people from
the South see the Northerners as elitist, snobbish, and greedy.

There's
still a "north and south" divide in the UK. Northerners(south of
Scotland) are seen as being lazy, hard-drinking, long-term unemployed,
working-class "Geordies" who are all children of former miners.
Southerners are referred to as effete, decadent "southern poofters" by
comparison.

Forgiveness doesn't come come easy to any of us
and the Jews have been persecuted for years -- hence the tag about
fogiving and forgetting. It's a myth but ethnic humour reinforces
common misconceptions.

Thanks Shelagh,
in fact in my new book is the story of the bitch and her ex catholic
priest pedophile, who broke our relationship with the words, 'I forgive
him!' it's in the chapter of my memoir entitled: Heart and Soul Death
Break

And My Muse questioned the fact that I was Jewish back on July 23 2005

Lots of names that I do see in my address book
Where the f'muck are they all now? I just took a look
Most I haven't the faintest clue, some I can't remember
It looks like a lonely birthday in this coming December
Home alone, alone at work, it seems it's back to me
And really what I want to do is climb a mountain and scream!
I have got to keep on going and with a smile, no frown
I better take my own advice, don't let the barstewards grind me down!
Bruised and battered, hurt and scarred,betrayed and villified
Lied to, shat on and what's more, they cut me deep inside
Yet still I'm here I'm writing this and I will still endure
I've got to take all that they give, though it seems more and more
Is it because I can take it? I don't want to it's true
I can't believe that this is part of being born a Jew!
What a strange thought that one was, for down the centuries
We Jews we have been ostrasised when trying to be free
It's true enough, I am a Jew, I also am a Man
And in this life I think I lost my wonderful master plan!
Well not quite I will admit, my master plan number one
I can't remember ever having a master plan, not one!
I've always taken it as it comes, what else is there to do?
Whatever the reason, it's how it is for....
This Alien, Wandering Jew!

I've fomulated a few impressions about religion that control my beliefs, and therefore my life: Things accepted or proven by science refute everything I learned about creation in Sunday School. Man created God in his own image, and not the other way as we are conditioned to accept. Organized religion is crowd control in the most basic of systems. The Christian Bible, and similar versions devised though belief systems by different names, are anthologies by chosen authors. And those published authors, then as now, serve at behest of the Editors. Weeds and people and lower animals live and die, and eventually become extinct as they are replaced by more adaptable species. And beliefs in parallel universes, or Heaven or Hell or Purgatory, are conveniences for those who so choose to believe them, and those beliefs should be honored by all and rediculed by none. And these are my beliefs.

Jim Woods
www.ultrasw.com/jwoods

Jim Woods wrote:

I've fomulated a few impressions about religion that control my beliefs, and therefore my life: Things accepted or proven by science refute everything I learned about creation in Sunday School. Man created God in his own image, and not the other way as we are conditioned to accept. Organized religion is crowd control in the most basic of systems. The Christian Bible, and similar versions devised though belief systems by different names, are anthologies by chosen authors. And those published authors, then as now, serve at behest of the Editors. Weeds and people and lower animals live and die, and eventually become extinct as they are replaced by more adaptable species. And beliefs in parallel universes, or Heaven or Hell or Purgatory, are conveniences for those who so choose to believe them, and those beliefs should be honored by all and rediculed by none. And these are my beliefs.

Jim Woods
www.ultrasw.com/jwoods

I would agree man made god in his own image, but in actuality, god doesn't really have an image in the way we think of an image. In fact I believe everything and every event is in the image of god for god and the totality of reality (the universe, in this sense including all paralell cosmoses and realities) are one and the same (for more on my views on this see my Nature of God thread) Man just wanted to make god in his own image because of ego in my opinion.

I just skimmed most comments and am not responding directly to any. Just to reiterate my position, let me say that I believe in God but not in religion. Religion is man-made. I believe there is but one God - an universal intellingence. I don't believe that this intelligence is in human form. The God I believe in is the same one that Moses prayed to. The same one that Muhammed prayed to. The same one that Jesus prayed to, etc., and the God that most people worship. God is called by various names but it is my belief that it is the same substance or force of energy. All the philosphical forms of worship has caused wars over the centuries. Each dogma praying to this one God to destroy their enemies - enemies being those who don't believe in their particular faith. Not much has changed over the centuries. There is still conflict/strife over the various forms of religious worship and wars continue. It creeps into politics. Politicians spout their support for their religious friends seeking favor and at the same time creating animosity with others.
And so it goes....

These comments are very interseting. All the above points have value...good questions should have simple, and provable answers.

Abe, why not start with the first question: "What is the purpose of the human race?"

This is the first time I've seen this thread. Abe, I skimmed through all five pages - not reading anything that deeply, so I could be wrong, but out of five pages, I haven't seen one entry that has to do directly with the topic.

The development of religion is closely connected to that of mythology, and it appears that the earliest forms of religious ritual and practice had to do with the worship of animals. One of the earliest in Old Europe was the bear. There are artifacts from old burial sites, and inside some very old caves which point to the practices.

In Great Britain, I believe, one of the worshiped animals was a deer. In the American west, it was often the buffalo.

It seems to have originated with the early tribes recognition of the cycle of life. The flesh of certain animals provided food, their skins, clothing and shelter, their bones, awls; etc.

So they considered them superior beings, and worshiped them. Over time, these animal gods took on superhuman qualities. You see evidence of that stage in Egypt, when the gods had human bodies but animal heads.

When the hunter-gatherer tribes started to split into hunters and planters, the gods split into male and female. Goddesses generally ruled the planting societies and the earliest cities, while the hunters worshiped male gods. Hunters had to move a lot, and women and their paraphernalia were a problem. A hunting tribes survival depended on a low accumulation of resources. In planter societies, the opposite was true. Survival there depended on a high accumulation of resources, and compliance and community over risk-taking and individual freedom.

That would be the basics from the pre-historical period and the earliest recorded religions, anyway.

Ann

alj,
is that a theory, or proven fact?

My major source for what I've written here is Joseph Campbell's Primitive Mythology, and some adaptations from that book in his Hero with a Thousand Faces. The evidence is based on archeological findings and on some anthropological studies - some by Margaret Mead, I believe. It's been a while since I was doing the research, but I could probably locate more of them if you are interested. Primitive and comparative mythology and religion has been an interest of mine for a long time.

Ann

What I find strange, is everyone claims to have the truth, but, they are all saying something different? I believe in
archeological findings. I believe in what can be proven, in and outside of the bible. I also believe many people follow those who will tickle their ear. (tell them what they want to hear.) That's not to say your ear is being tickled...but, did you prove out what Joseph Campbell's claims to be fact. What do you believe, and why?

Have I personally been to the archeological digs? No, Campbell's work was based on much careful research, and he is not alone in his viewpoint. There are many other sources that back his work up. It resonates, if that's what you're asking. The question had to do with history, so that's what I was discussing. I don't know if my term, resonates, is what you mean by tickling my ear. Is it what I want to hear? That's kind of irrelevant. I don't want to hear anything so much as I want to learn. Either way, it sin't really about what I want.

If you are asking what I believe, it goes something like this. Humankind has evolved, and in that evolution, a recognition of something beyond ourselves has developed over time. It isn't that God is changing so much as our ability to perceive God continues to grow, so our understanding changes. There is a local understanding, based on the immediate needs of the tribe or community, that continues to develop into a more global one. We are still in the process of developing, and so is our understanding.

We are in a place, right now, where our we are confronted with a need to let go of some of our older, more national perceptions, and recognize that there is only one Force controlling the universe, but that the differing perceptions of that Universal Force are creating problems that we must move beyond if humankind is to survive. We must share our perceptions: East, West, Middle East - we all have a part of the picture, but as long as we each insist that our part is a whole, and that our "whole" is better than their "whole," we contribute to the problem.

Abe's question was about religion. My use of that term involves a set of rituals and practices that are designed to bring one closer to that Divine Force or Source - a set of practices that is accepted as a standard by a group of people - an institution, if you will. A sense of "spirituality" may or may not be involved.

I don't know if I'm answering your question or not. To be honest, I'm not completely certain I understand what your question is.

What are my credentials? I am a retired English teacher whose interest in learning more about our institutions and origins has been almost a compulsion for my adult life. I am a student of comparative religion and mythology; I prefer Jung's approach to psychology, which I believe is inextricably entertwined with religion and myth. I have read much of Edward Edinger's work on the psychology of religion, I also like Paul Tillich's work, as well as Tielhard du Chardin's. I practice the religion of Christianity through the Epsicopal Church, US, and find I generally agree with what I've heard from our bishop, Katherine Jefferts-Schori, which includes the statement, "As Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ is our pathway to the Divine, but to say that His is the only path would be to put God in a very small box.

And I realize that like my younger daughter would say, you didn't ask for the whole bird.

I hope I have not offended, or bored, or taken up too much of your time.


Ann

Thank you for the reply Ann. I lived in Las vegas for some years. One evening I was watching a women play roulette. There are 36 numbers on a roulette table. She was putting one chip on each number. The pay-back if one wins, is 35 to 1. After several times, I asked, "Why are you doing that. You lose a chip each time?" She replied, "It's safer this way."
Almost sounds like the person that says, "All religions are headed in the same direction."
I am not a part of any religion. I believe in God. I believe in the scriptures I can prove to be true. I am a student of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I believe in science, and archeological finds. I do not believe in the theory of evolution.

I do not try to change anyones view on the above subjects.
I find it strange that everyone believes they have the truth?
I must be the only dummy on earth...I'm still looking.

domenic,

I see where you are coming from. I'm still looking, too.

Ann

The history of religion is too complex to be understood on a forum. There are hundreds of book written on the subject and they seldom agree.
Archeology has shed much light on this subject yet much of what has been learned is not something that organized religions want to hear. There are many inconsistencies in the Bible. It has been said that the worst version of
the Bible ever written is the King James Version. And the word “version” has caused many disputes and offshoots of religious faiths. Seeking for truth is not something many can handle. They want to believe in the faith they were taught and seek only confirmation of what they believe as truth. Anything that shakes that faith is often ignored or condemned. As you know, the study of religious philosophy deals with a particular faith and is not an in depth study of religion.
Then there is the Old Testament and the New Testament. Before the Old Testament, people prayed to many Gods depending on who was in charge. Within the Old Testament we find great stories, parables, fairy tales of sorts that taught people how to live. A God of wrath if one didn’t conform. Lots of ambiguity there as well. In the New Testament, we find a God of love, or a prophet who taught how to live and treat one another. Lots of parables in the New Testament also. There is much truth in both bibles but there is also much that has been fabricated depending on what scribe did the writing. Politics played a role in religious beliefs and that too shows up in inconsistencies between the author and the text. We know that Jesus didn’t write anything. Stories told at meetings and campfires spread the word until eventually what was remembered of what was said, was written.
Translations alone have altered meanings.
For anyone to say that the Bible, in whatever version, is the literal word of God, is conforming to a philosophy.

And there are so many other texts: The Egyptian Book of the Dead; the Rig Veda, Upanishads, and Bagavhad Gita among the Indian works, the I Ching of the Taoists....

There was a Victorian poet named Arthur Hugh Clough who was among those who believed that by studying all of the sources, and finding where they overlapped, seeing what was common to all, we might come closer to a realization of that Absolute Force or Intelligence. As for names, when we must have them, I kind of like Richard Bach's the IS.

There is so much we don't know, but shouldn't we strive to find out all we can? Wouldn't that bring us closer to an understanding?

Ann said:
"There is so much we don't know, but shouldn't we
strive to find out all we can? Wouldn't that bring us closer to an
understanding?"

I agree. The search for truth can be frustrating, but also has its rewards. The more I learn, the more I want to know.

Ann and Abe,

I agree and want to keep learning. Well, you knew that.

I believe faith becomes stronger through learning, learning about history, other religions, and even visiting religious places where one feels more than one sees.

Abe, the Cologne Cathedral is one of the most spiritual places I've ever visited. Others have said the same and I've read stories about messages that have come to people in that holy place.

Carol

When I visit an ancient cathedral, there is something very special about it. It give one a feeling of something "holy." Sitting there, observing the architecture, the stained-glass windows with biblical scenes, the numerous sculptures, etc., is overpowering. The labor that went into the building is enormous and that is often the downside. Labor off the back of peasants, and in some places, slaves, was common. It doesn't fit into today's ethics.

Abe, religion isn't really hard to understand. Let me see if I can sum it up.

At first, there was only God.

God made us.

God told us what to believe.

Many of us interpreted His word, each of us differently in order to fulfill our own spiritual needs.

In keeping with His word, we kill anyone who disagrees with our interpretation.

We have lived through the ages, fat and happy, content to know that we are the only ones who actually know what God intended for man.

God had not interacted with us again since He gave us His word, but once we make Him angry enough, he will destroy us and the false religions we have created. Along with the entire world, of course.

Then once again there will only be God.

Personally, I don’t expect Him to make the same mistake again.

Amen, Marie, amen.

Don,
I agree with most of your summation, but "God told us what to believe," I don't buy. Man did that.