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 History of Religion(s)

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Carol Troestler
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySat Apr 12, 2008 7:33 am

I would be interested to participate in a discussion about the History of Religion. I think there much to be learned about the history and how it affects all of us.
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Pam
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySat Apr 12, 2008 3:47 pm

Well Abe, 14 views to your comment and no replies yet, so I'll bite! It's a pretty big subject; do you want to narrow it down at all or just jump in?
History of religion as it pertains to culture, literature, life in general or specific?
Not that I know much about any of it, but I do find it fascinating...
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Sue
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySat Apr 12, 2008 3:54 pm

Well, Abe, it seems that depending on different belief systems changes the history of religion. I have been studying religions for years (am NOT an expert by any means). I believe there is good and bad in all religions. Jesus and Buddha were NOT religious men. They were spiritual men with a message. Many of Christianity's ummmm traditions come from Paganism and yet they more than frown on Paganism. Most people think Paganism has to do with Satan and not what it is really about.

I was raised Pentecostal/Assembly of God/Holy Roller. I do embrace some of their beliefs, but over the years have also embraced beliefs from other systems or denominations.

Like Pam asked, what do you want to talk about?

sunny
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minissa

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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySat Apr 12, 2008 5:01 pm

Ditto, *big* subject and where to start? I despised history the way it was taught when I was in school (back before the earth cooled) but hooked up with the Baha'i Faith in college, and its universality and world-embracing view of other religions has led me to study a lot of comparative religion (and mythology, sometimes hard to separate the two!) and that's where history starts to get very interesting. For instance, we have such a skewed view of Islam in this country (USA). Granted, events by crazy people like 9/11 haven't helped anyway, but most people in the Christian west don't realize there were lights in the streets of the Abbasid Empire when Europe had plunged into the Dark Ages or that that's where the great centers of learning that Europe sent their doctors and nobility to for learning were. In fact, in high school, I learned that it was a *good* thing that Ferdinand and Isabella turned back the Moors (or that earlier, the Battle of Tours stopped the original Muslim incursion).

I've always wanted to do a book about a Jewish man from, say, 11th century England, turned out by his own community and fleeing England in fear of his life who is shipwrecked in the Middle East and finds Jews, Christians, and Muslims living together in relative harmony and that he is accepted for who and what he is.

My studies have greatly influenced my world of Caros and the way my series Adventurers of the Carotian Union played out. If you look, you see references to other faiths and historical incidents from them scattered throughout the work (basically a quest fantasy). Lots of material for writers in religious history and practice, and there's an active thread on Amazon for people looking for series *not* based on Celtic spirituality.

Interested to see where this thread will go.
Karen Anne Webb
www.chaliceoflife.com
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySat Apr 12, 2008 10:57 pm

Wow. You're right about it being a big subject and already I see many have studied the various aspects. I see Karen has done much study on the subject as well.

Throughout history, religion has been the cause of wars, and it continues to this day. Most religions believe in one God. How ironic that they pray to this one God to help them kill their enemies while at the same time their enemies are doing the same thing. It is not always fighting against a different religions but also between sects within the same religion. As was with Christians in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics or in Islam between the Sunni's and the Shiite's currently in Iraq.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 12:41 am

I think a bit of background would be helpful as Sue has done. My religious upbringing was almost identical to Sue's. Fundamentalist (Penticostal). We were right and everyone else wrong.
I had been chosen by the church to be sent to bible school to become a preacher. I escaped by joining the USAF. When I got there, I took it upon myself to find out about other religions. Each sunday I would attend a different church service at the chapel's on base, and to my surprise, I found they were basically all the same. That was the beginning of the end for me as a "religious" person. The more I learned about religion the more I questioned it.
My wife took religious studies at Penn State Univ. and studied Christianity, Judaism and Islam. I was on the hearing end of all this of course. When I was in the Middle East, I read the Koran. That was a chore with all the footnotes trying to explain certain scriptures. No, I'm not an expert on any religion but I have a fair knowledge about the above three mentioned.
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 9:52 am

I'm afraid my knowledge is minimal at best, so I will be watching this discussion with interest. From what little I know, most religions are basically the same. One God and many names and different interpretaions.

I think I just believe what I feel in my heart to be true. So far, churches have not been helpful, so I have essentially turned my back on organized religion and stick with my own feelings. There have been too many horrendous happenings with some churches and their Pastors, Preachers, Ministers, etc.

I am open to enlightenment.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 10:10 am

Zada,
I think you have the best handle on things. Listen to your inner voice.
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 10:20 am

Thank you Abe. I hope I did not come off as condemning all religions. For the most part they are good, and in the right hands can help parents teach their children the things they need in order to be 'good' people. Things like compassion, empathy, courtesy, right and wrong. And sermons can ease suffering, and promote peace within oneself.

My great grandmother was an atheist but never missed church. She said the sermons were good, old fashioned common sense!
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 10:23 am

Zada,
you don't have to believe in religion to believe in God.
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Pam
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 10:58 am

I think for me that the most stunning feature of religion is as you say Abe; they are all founded on similar values. This really rang home for me when I had several funerals to attend in a rather short time. One week I was at a Catholic funeral, which started with the exact same part of the bible as a Jewish funeral the next week. This got me thinking, seriously.
In my digging around, which has included the world's major religions and even a few minor ones, I found the same root over and over: the golden rule - that do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or harm no one, whatever you want to define it as.
That being set in my mind then, that really the root of religion is at the root of humanity and that no matter what else we ascribe to any of them they are basically resting on the same foundation, I have to conclude that the roots of war could not be religion, even though they get called that. The roots of war seem to be an expression of an egotistical quest for power.
And I'm looking forward to seeing what you all think...it's a fascinating conversation. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 11:17 am

Try to think of the converse. Without any organised religion in the world EVER, would there be no wars and no conflict? Relgions unite people but they also divide. Why is that?

Also, if religions are basically the same, why are there so many? Doesn't that suggest that religions are man-made and not devised by God? Humans all think basically the same and this is reflected in the similarity of religions. If God devised numerous religions, they would be different and devised for different purposes. God wouldn't devise the same religion over and over again; there would be no need to do that.

We adopt the beliefs that suit us. We are not chosen by God, we are not "the chosen people". We do the choosing.

As an example, it is often thought that men choose their brides but the brides have the final word. They say yes or no. So who is really doing the choosing?
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 11:41 am

I think the question “why” would have been on the mind of man regardless of any so-called religious belief. How did we come to be here? What causes things to grow, etc., etc? I believe that there would be a natural belief in some unknown or higher power. One might have called it “The thing” or “It” or “God.”
Yes, Shelagh, I believe that religion is man made. It has been a method of control and used as a guide on how to live. I think the biggest factor is for man to have a belief in the hereafter. People want to know where they go when they die. Believing in a heaven or a paradise provides comfort.
What has always stuck with me concerning life, is that the body is made up of energy, and energy never dies. So when the body dies, the energy leaves it. Where does it go? I believe it goes back to the source from where it originally came.
The American Indian believes in the Sun God. The sun is a ball of energy and provides light and life. Who knows? Maybe they got it right.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 12:11 pm

Good points, Shelagh. I believe that religious beliefs started as one. Then as more people joined in, different ways of thinking came to be, thus dividing the religion into many different ones with slightly different slants on things. It is all basically open to anyone's interpretations.

Politics and a desire to have power have been used to torture religions into beliefs that fed agendas for the powers in power at the time.

One need only look back to the Catholic twisting of 'pagan rites' to fit their religion to see how that worked. Solstice celebrations became religious holidays.

As I said, I am not learned in religion, so my views may be biased, but that is my take on it.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 2:36 pm

My experience would back up Abe's point about men wanting to believe in an afterlife. My brother died in 2002 after a long fight against cancer which he lost. Towards the end, after many years of not attending church or having any religious convictions, he was drawn back to the church and wanted to be buried at the church he attended as a boy.

He was leaving the love of his life, his eight year old son and he need, absolutely needed, to believe that it wasn't the end and that their relationship would not be finite but infinite. Only the church could offer that never-ending continuity.

My elder brother, George, is an atheist and, for many years, wouldn't step inside a church because it compromised his principles. Since my brother died, George visits my brother's grave and has offered to help to keep the church grounds tidy. Death changes people and their perception of religion. My brother is still an atheist but he likes the physical presence of a grave that he probably couldn't explain to even himself. It's a feeling and nothing thought out and rational. His rational mind tells him that there is no God. His feelings, however, sometimes get the better of him.

People believe what they want to believe and I'm a great believer in allowing anyone to choose their own beliefs, whether it's the supernatural, religion or a spiritual belief. I also think that people should be able to choose for themselves and should not be pressured into adopting someone else's beliefs.

Like Pam said, do unto others as you would them do unto you. In other words, never interfere in anyone else's life for any reason. Don't spy on, eavesdrop upon, lie about, follow, mimic, abuse, belittle or ridicule them. Show people the respect you would like to receive yourself and, most importantly, live and let live: vive et vivas.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 3:26 pm

Ah...good advice, Shelagh.

I can, however, totally spy on, eavesdrop upon, lie about, follow, mimic, abuse, belittle, or ridicule the characters I create.

Hm... scratch
Has to be some deep, deep connection and meaning here...

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Pam
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 4:31 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Try to think of the converse. Without any organised religion in the world EVER, would there be no wars and no conflict? Relgions unite people but they also divide. Why is that?

Also, if religions are basically the same, why are there so many? Doesn't that suggest that religions are man-made and not devised by God? Humans all think basically the same and this is reflected in the similarity of religions. If God devised numerous religions, they would be different and devised for different purposes. God wouldn't devise the same religion over and over again; there would be no need to do that.

We adopt the beliefs that suit us. We are not chosen by God, we are not "the chosen people". We do the choosing.


I think it does mean that religions are man made; even looking at the way the Church of England was formed when I think it was Henry VIII did not like the rules of the Catholic Church. And in the US where groups of loosely organized individuals can lobby for government support and receive recogntion as a religion when they really aren't in any traditional sense of the word but now qualify for special treatment as a recognized church (scientology for example). I think religion is people's way of organizaing themselves, just as tribes and states and countries have done for millenia. Jesus never called himself a Christian, he was Jewish. It was people after him who - dare I say - invented Christianity. We do choose these days in much of the 'free world', although at one time ascribed to the religion of the toughest guy in the neighbourhood (thinking of examples like the Crusades as well as the way that North American natives were 'converted').

It is so interesting that you mention your brothers Shelagh. My parents have had an experience that left me, well, stunned. My Dad an atheist my whole life and my Mum a "good non-practicing Anglican" we loved to say. When they were both diagnosed with cancer within a month of each other a few years ago, my Mum headed almost straight back to church and made Dad come with her. He has become more introspective and searching for meaning, even hosting bible study at their home. Throughout, they have grown much closer as a couple - more than ever before - and they support one another, pray together and each journey through their disease, but do so together. Faith, for both of them, has had a profound effect on their relationship and the way that they deal with their illnesses.

Life truly is a remarkable journey. History of Religion(s) 588578
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Phil Whitley
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 8:48 pm

I now think of myself as a spiritual person rather than a religious one. It took me the better part of my lifetime to de-program myself from the "brainwashing" imposed on me as a child. Raised in the "Bible Belt" South, my family, the church and the community instilled in us a fear of hellfire and damnation (out of love and concern for my immortal soul), that I now find abominable.

When I began seriously studying ancient texts, as a result of discovering the works of Zecharia Sitchin (The Earth Chronicles) in 1997, I found that the Sumerians and Babylonians had recorded most of the popular Bible stories a few thousand years before the Bible was ever written!

The Babylonian's Enuma Elish (google it) is an epic of creation, told as an historical narrative from an astronomical viewpoint.

Then there the accounts of an alien race that came to Earth from another extrasolar planet who genetically altered homo erectus into a more suitable creature for their purposes. I know this sounds wild, and bordering on science fiction, but read on...

They called their creation "the Adamu".

The place they chose to do their work was called "E-Din", and was located in Mesopotamia.

In their version, our Noah was called Ziasudra, but the Flood and the resulting survival was nearly the same as the Bible story.

There is lots more, I just offer these examples to emphacize what led me to "getting over" my doubts which were going to send me to hell anyway... LOL

Rather than destroy my belief in a Supreme Being, a Creator, it actually gave me a foundation for my beliefs and restored my faith in a Higher Power. These visitors, the Anunnaki (as referred to by the Sumerians), had a strong belief in a higher power whom the called "The Creator of All". They eveb had arguments among themselves whether their genetic manipulations had interfered with the Master Plan, even to the point of whether it was Fate or Destiny that they had done.

Before they left Earth, they bestowed "Kingship" upon the humans so they could rule themselves. It was these priest-kings that began what we now know as religion. They set themselves up as the intercessors to the "gods" and the masses, for their own gain.

Thus began "religion".

Just my opinion...

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptySun Apr 13, 2008 10:15 pm

Brew, and the rest of you on this thread, I think you may find, "A Higher Good," by Ron Kruger most interesting. Ron posts on the Published Authors Network but I haven't seen him on this forum, but he has much to say about this subject.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyMon Apr 14, 2008 5:18 am

It`s fascinating to me that there are different versions of creation myth in many cultures, as you point out Brew. It is similar with fairy tales that kids read too. I beleive that there are something like 200 versions of Red Riding Hood--everyone needed a story to teach kids how dangerous it was to speak to strangers, stray from the path...and our kids grow up thinking it was created just for them.
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyMon Apr 14, 2008 10:07 am

Pam wrote:
Shelagh wrote:
Try to think of the converse. Without any organised religion in the world EVER, would there be no wars and no conflict? Relgions unite people but they also divide. Why is that?

Also, if religions are basically the same, why are there so many? Doesn't that suggest that religions are man-made and not devised by God? Humans all think basically the same and this is reflected in the similarity of religions. If God devised numerous religions, they would be different and devised for different purposes. God wouldn't devise the same religion over and over again; there would be no need to do that.

We adopt the beliefs that suit us. We are not chosen by God, we are not "the chosen people". We do the choosing.


I think it does mean that religions are man made; even looking at the way the Church of England was formed when I think it was Henry VIII did not like the rules of the Catholic Church. And in the US where groups of loosely organized individuals can lobby for government support and receive recogntion as a religion when they really aren't in any traditional sense of the word but now qualify for special treatment as a recognized church (scientology for example). I think religion is people's way of organizaing themselves, just as tribes and states and countries have done for millenia. Jesus never called himself a Christian, he was Jewish. It was people after him who - dare I say - invented Christianity. We do choose these days in much of the 'free world', although at one time ascribed to the religion of the toughest guy in the neighbourhood (thinking of examples like the Crusades as well as the way that North American natives were 'converted').

It is so interesting that you mention your brothers Shelagh. My parents have had an experience that left me, well, stunned. My Dad an atheist my whole life and my Mum a "good non-practicing Anglican" we loved to say. When they were both diagnosed with cancer within a month of each other a few years ago, my Mum headed almost straight back to church and made Dad come with her. He has become more introspective and searching for meaning, even hosting bible study at their home. Throughout, they have grown much closer as a couple - more than ever before - and they support one another, pray together and each journey through their disease, but do so together. Faith, for both of them, has had a profound effect on their relationship and the way that they deal with their illnesses.

Life truly is a remarkable journey. History of Religion(s) 588578


King Henry VIII "invented" the Church of England so he could get a devorce from Catherine of Aragon (the pope refused to grant such a devorce). The reason king Henry VIII wanted the devorce is Catherine would not have a boy baby. After creating his new church, king Henry granted himself a devorce and married Anne Bolyn and after she failed to produce a boy, he had her head cut off. Getting back to the subject of inventing religions, is seems, as you have said, that Christianity was invented not by Jesus, but by those that followed him. In particualar, I think Christianity was largely invented by Saint Paul of Tarsis. More than half of the New Testament was written by him. Christian fundamentalists today seem to emphasize Paul's teachings even more than those of Jesus. Prehaps, that is because Jesus told people to be non-judgemental, and anyone who has heard even a minute of a fundamentalist sermon will know that these people seem to think about nothing, except judgement and eternal damnation. Now, back to the writings of Saint Paul of Tarsis. If one reads those writings critically, the first thing one should notice is that Saint Paul appears to be a sexist. He teaches that men should have complete dominion over women (which no logical person should view as right). It also seems to me that Saint Paul thought he could invent his own rules just like king Henry VIII invented the Church of England. If I remember correctly, Saint Paul is also the one who taught that we are saved by faith alone (so appearently it matters more that we believe than what we do). Personally, I disagree whth that. I believe actions speak louder than words. I would say faith without good deeds is worthless. As you can tell, I am not a fan of Saint Paul of Tarsis.


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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyMon Apr 14, 2008 4:26 pm

My background: raised Roman Catholic but in a somewhat diverse neighborhood. I (horrors!) went to public school, for which some of the Catholic kids who went to St. Richard's assured me I was going to burn in Hell. My husband, raised Baptist, still kids me if I can't do the book, chapter, and verse thing on something that, "Oh, you were raised Catholic." (With respect to any of you who might be Catholic, when I was a child the Baltimore Catechism was what was drilled into you, and you had a Mass Book, but the Bible? What's that?

My spiritual path was similar to what others here are describing --- yup, studied almost everything there was to study and saw the commonalities. Needed something, but couldn't decide, as at heart, all the major world religions were teaching the same principles: one God, be nice to one another, follow some laws God wants you to, put your focus less on the material and more on the spiritual. My husband (similar path, though his Born Again folks really are terrified we'll go to Hell for following a false prophet) and I followed the path to what seemed like the logical conclusion at the time: the Baha'i Faith, which explains why, yes, all the major religions really do pretty much teach the same values *if* you look at what their founders taught. So glad to read that Abe at least has gotten through the Qur'an. Does it say anything about flying planes into buildings or suicide bombing little kids? Nope. But did it say in what little we know of Christ's words that we should slaughter people, Christians or otherwise, who didn't agree with us? Nope. (Slaughter of Christians by other Christians began around the time the church councils started and the patriarchs started trying to solidify and codify what Christians were actually supposed to believe theologically.)

I would like to take diplomatic issue with the thought that religion is born of man, though I would agree that what religion *becomes* is a function of man fiddling with it. I think religion starts out as a pure stream; given enough time, man will pollute it. *That's* why we have wars. (Baha'is would say that's why religion needs to be renewed periodically, so we can get back to the pure font and get past all the crud man has polluted it with.) In our texts, it says "If it [religion] be the cause of discord and hostility, if it leads to separation and creates conflict, the absence of religion would be preferable in the world... Prejudice and fanaticism, whether sectarian, denominational, patriotic or political are destructive to the foundation of human solidarity; therefore man should release himself from such bonds in order that the oneness of the world of humanity may become manifest."

We think science and religion should agree, that there should be universal literacy/education, that men and women are equal, and a bunch of other radical new ideas! As a science jock, feminist, little peace-loving hippie chick (someday I shall paraphrase Joni Mitchell and write a song called "Songs to Aging Hippies Come"), and educator, how could I resist?!

Hope that didn't come off as proselytizing. That wasn't my intent. Just to share my background and offer another point of view on the "where did religion come from/does it give us wars" discussion.

Karen
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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyMon Apr 14, 2008 4:35 pm

Just posting to see if my avatar and address saved. THIS IS ONLY A TEST.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

History of Religion(s) Empty
PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyMon Apr 14, 2008 11:43 pm

Your study is impressive minissa.
I found that the more I learned about the history of religion, the less religious I became. We know that Jesus never wrote anything down. What is recorded about what he is alledged to have said was disseminated mouth to mouth until someone wrote down their understanding of the stories. That is true of the other prophets as well. Each time the early scripts were copied or translated, the meaning was subject to change. Much of what was finally selected to be placed into the bible underwent much disucssion to make sure what was included was in accordance to what their beliefs were at that time.
Anyone who has studies languages knows that not every word can be translated and have the same meaning. So when one considers translations from Aramaic, Greek and finally English, the current meaning is also suspect.
As an aside: When I lived in Atlanta, there was a live broadcast over the controversy about having Spanish in school. They asked a lady on the spot what her feeling were about having Spanish in school. She replied, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone else."
I think we recognize that fundamentalists try to follow what is written in the bible "word for word." Most are good people who want to believe in God and in what the bible says. To shatter their illusions for some would be catastrophic. I think our beliefs should remain "our" beliefs and not try to destroy the faith simple people have that governs their lives. But it stops there. When it becomes political is when I speak out.
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Pam
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Pam


Number of posts : 1790
Registration date : 2008-02-01
Age : 58
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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PostSubject: Re: History of Religion(s)   History of Religion(s) EmptyTue Apr 15, 2008 5:48 am

Abe F. March wrote:
She replied, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone else."

That made me burst out laughing and startled the dog, who is now a quaking mess at my feet, Abe. It also reminded me how vain we can be, to consider ourselves the centre of the freakin' univierse.

Interesting and fascinating conversation folks.
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