The Pick-Up Game

Carol, there is probably a lot of truth to your observation. It just occurred to me that I never finished any of the books I began writing before my encounter with cancer. Since being diagnosed, I've finished every book I've started (I've written four, plus a book of poetry). I think cancer gave me a little kick in the behind to get moving and stop thinking I have all the time in the world to get things done. That was one of the gifts cancer gave me.

Quote :

If everyone thought like me,

I believe one of the greatest gifts we each bring to the table is that we all don't think alike. Just a moment ago an observation Carol made got me thinking about why I was suddenly able to finish books when, for years, I had never finished any of the books I had started writing. I appreciate her insight. I appreciate your comments and viewpoint, as well. I think it helps us all open our minds and consider what our beliefs are and why we believe certain things. Not in an "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of way, but in a "we're all traveling along on this journey trying to do the best we can and make the best decisions for ourselves" kind of way.

Thanks Marie! I hope your journey never ends and you complete many more books!

I got a 20 also. They were honest answers, and Don, that doesn't mean those with lower scores than yours don't realize what getting published means. It's just the way we are. It is mixing that free flowing creativity with the reality of being published.

Carol

I am a dismal 10.
Love betty

Betty,

You aren't dismal anything!

Don,

Kenny Werner, piano player for a famous harmonica player, wrote a wonderful book about musical performance titled "Effortless Mastery". The publisher states:

"Kenny's candid confession of frustrations regarding his own early development really reveal how *everyone* struggles to reach a place of mastery, no matter what facade of confidence they present publicly. It is an inspiring book that seems to immediately connect with musicians, who say to us over and over, 'I've always felt there was something holding me back, and now I know how to let go and move forward!'"

His concepts are about letting go and getting in a sort of "zone." If you start thinking about rhythm or correct notes, you lose this place. I think this applies to writing and the pick-up game, that feeling of just playing the game and somehow having those thoughts free you to play your best with no fears.

Don, I think you scored well because to be a musician, you have to be a performer, and I think Ann, Shelagh and I scored low on the question about presentations, etc.

Carol

Carol, I don't agree that you lose anything, or that you get out of the "zone" everytime you put some structure into your writing. That goes for songwriting and for books, I think.

I admit I am very structured when I write. I plot my books, I know where I am going and what I want to accomplish, and I have chapter outlines for most of the book before I begin writing. Some people say this means the writing is not "free flowing or inspired" but to me it just makes good sense. I was once a partner in a company that held seminars that taught songwriting. Or at least, the way that a couple of very successful writers went about it. I think that's why I scored well on the quiz. I didn't cheat, and I didn't answer the way I thought I was supposed to, I answered the questions with logic and along the lines of how I actually write.

I am not being critical of anyone, or at least not on purpose, and I certainly don't think that I am right and everyone else is wrong. There are a lot of paths to every destination, and I've been preaching that here and on other boards since I've been here. I saw the quiz as having some pretty basic questions that had some pretty basic answers, and I just chose the answer that was closet to the way I am.

Don,

I'm not saying one is right and the other wrong. I am struggling with being less encyclopedic, making a nonfiction book read more like a fictional work.

I honor your success. There are educated musicians and those who pick up the violin and just play. There are those who combine talent and education.

Many are successful musicians, but not as performers. My daughter is a full time music pastor at a large church. The bell ringers, adult cantors, kids in the choir all add to her success.

We are not performers or writers in a vacuum or in isolation. We need that audience, those who participate with us as on this messageboard, writers of all genres and styles.

We need the pick-up game. We need the team.

Carol

Don,

Whichever way you look at it, you are right. The quiz was set up to give an interactive way to demonstrate what is needed to become a professional writer. The quiz hepled to "show" people the skills required, rather than telling them. There is an enormous amount of advice on the 'net about what publishers seek but that advice is often brushed aside by would-be-authors who don't want to follow advice and prefer to go their own way. The quiz put the onus on the person taking the quiz. The bottom line is that publishers are looking for well-structured stories that have a recognised, targeted audience and fit onto a publisher's list and, therefore, will appeal to an already garnered audience of readers.

That is not the end of the story, either. Once the book is out, publishers want active authors who are willing to participate in book-signings, readings and public presentations (lectures, discussion groups, library talks etc.).

The vast majority of would-be authors want to succeed without all the extra work. They are driven to write but not as driven to succeed. Me included. We can''t all be Brenda.

Writing the book is only the first part, some say it's the easiest part. I am not driven, at least I don't think I am, but I certainly want to see what I write succeed in the market place. With that end in mind, I try to read, learn and put into practice what I can of the best advice available. Not all advice pertains to all of us, and we have to be judicial in what we choose to follow. However, I think that most of us try our best, or what we think is our best, in getting our books in the hands of readers.

I always have mixed feelings when someone wants to know how I define success. First, I don't write for profit alone, although I am not against seeing my work earn some money. I tend to think that a person has to decide what or how much they expect their book to do, and then call it a success when it reaches that expectation. Most of my poems, for instance, I write because I love to write poetry and I love to have people read them and like them. Profit has never entered into it. My songs, however, are different. I write songs because I want to see if I can get someone to record them, I like to hear my music on the radio, and I like to see a royalty statement come rolling in.

Right now I am in my book writing career much where I was in my songwriting career so many years ago. I'm writing, trying to learn everything I can, hoping to write something that people will like, and doing what I can to promote what I write. If I had the time, which I am not sure that I do, I think I would manage to find an agent and a publisher, and I think some of my books would be commercial successes. Not that I think they would be best sellers, but I do think I would earn a fair amount of money with them. That may not happen, but I will continue to try.

I don't regret any of the steps I've taken so far, including publishing with PA, and I don't mind saying that I am making an effort to move forward. If at some point in time I find I am not making any progress, I won't rule out PA, self publishing, or Lulu or Createspace. I am pretty pragmatic about it, and will take it one step at a time.

Right or wrong, this is the course I've set for myself, and only time will tell if I've chosen wisely. I surely don't know, but I've got my fingers crossed. In the meantime, I'll keep working, learning, and writing.

alj wrote:

Are we saying that LC is correct in saying our readers are "dumber than dirt"?

I do consider my probable audience when I write, but that audience is a fairly well-read, well-educated audience that would be bored with formulas. I want my readers to think and be challenged. Is that wrong?

Just to clarify, I think that people in general lack critical thinking skills, and are content to let others to think for them. I wasn't addressing any of our readers in particular, or our goals for them. My comment was also made in the context of the importance of vetting non-fiction work. I'm sure your book was well-researched and accurate. That doesn't negate the fact that many non-commercial house books are not, and that the average reader is not in a position to gauge the accuracy. Nor should he have to. When I buy a book on an unfamiliar topic, I assume the author knows more about it than I do, and is giving me accurate info. I shouldn't have to research it myself to know if what was written is true.

One who does it Don's way is Stuart Kaminsky, named a Grand Master last year by Mystery Writers of America. He takes about three months outlining, then writes the book in a couple of weeks. He's had many dozens published. I especially enjoy the ones about Porfiry Rostnikov, a Moscow detective. If you can find it, check out "Murder on the Trans-Siberian Express." It's a good one.

I went back and took the test and flunked out. I always cheat and lie on tests so that may be the reason.

When I went to college back in the late fifties, when most women went to college to find husbands, my small liberal arts college did give me a husband, but more important it taught me to think. The premise was that if you graduated with fewer questions than when you began, they had not done their job.

L.C. It is a quandary. Do we put in references so that our readers can find more info if they want? I put in quotes because of lack of confidence in my own writing. Do others do this also? The talent is in bringing historical facts together to entertain, educate, but most of all to promote thinking.

Carol

Carol Troestler wrote:

L.C. It is a quandary. Do we put in references so that our readers can find more info if they want? I put in quotes because of lack of confidence in my own writing. Do others do this also? The talent is in bringing historical facts together to entertain, educate, but most of all to promote thinking.

I can just speak for myself -I use quotes and other sources to bolster my writing, not to cede my own authority as an author to them. I am currently reading a textbook where the author does that -she constantly refers to a leader in the field- and I'm at the point where I'm asking myself: so why am I reading YOU? What are YOU bringing to the table?

I do cite lots of references at the end of each chapter, which I perceive as different.

L.C.

I see you are no longer a guest, but have joined us as a member!

Very good. You have a lot of expertise and I always listen to your comments.

I'm working on this but have to keep telling myself I have something to say and don't have to use others' words.

Going from the pick-up game to playing on the team, doesn't mean you have to copy the experts.

Carol

Hey Carol, thanks, I joined just for you!

About my "expertise," I don't want to pass myself off as any kind of expert, actually. My writing credits are modest. I have one nonfiction book that has been in print for 19 years; the 6th edition came out this past January. I've written one textbook, it came out a year ago. I'm writing another text that I have a contract for. That's all.

LC,

You've got me all choked up!

Seriously, I'm glad to see you here.

Carol

LC wrote:

alj wrote:

Are we saying that LC is correct in saying our readers are "dumber than dirt"?

I do consider my probable audience when I write, but that audience is a fairly well-read, well-educated audience that would be bored with formulas. I want my readers to think and be challenged. Is that wrong?

Just to clarify, I think that people in general lack critical thinking skills, and are content to let others to think for them. I wasn't addressing any of our readers in particular, or our goals for them. My comment was also made in the context of the importance of vetting non-fiction work. I'm sure your book was well-researched and accurate. That doesn't negate the fact that many non-commercial house books are not, and that the average reader is not in a position to gauge the accuracy. Nor should he have to. When I buy a book on an unfamiliar topic, I assume the author knows more about it than I do, and is giving me accurate info. I shouldn't have to research it myself to know if what was written is true.

It's good to see your name (or initials, anyway) in blue, LC. As to the importance of vetting, I was saying then, and still do, that being published by a commercial publisher doesn't gaurantee that you won't have to research it yourself. I think I mentioned somewhere that it was invalid information in a popular, commercially published work that led me to write my book on the same subject. When Carol and I were researching the Civil War in Missouri, we both found it was difficult to find one that was objectively written; most of them favored one side or the other. Assuming anything you read in any non-fiction book, wherever it was published, without checking the author's credentials or bias, can be problematic if you accept what you read at face value.

Ann

Studying the Civil War in Missouri is really an eye-opener to slanted history. I got so I would only use personal accounts. They made much more sense than the "official reports."

My husband read a very official book once that had a military base in Montana that is in Missouri. The proofreader must not have known the abbreviations for the states.

I also read many accounts of a relatives' mission that were incorrect, since I had studied this event extensively.

We have found incorrect information on official websites and books.

Carol

alj wrote:

It's good to see your name (or initials, anyway) in blue, LC. As to the importance of vetting, I was saying then, and still do, that being published by a commercial publisher doesn't gaurantee that you won't have to research it yourself. ..Assuming anything you read in any non-fiction book, wherever it was published, without checking the author's credentials or bias, can be problematic if you accept what you read at face value.

Hi Ann, thx for the welcome ...and again, I completely agree that commercially published books have errors (mine do!) and that it behooves the reader to read everything critically. That said, I think the responsibility lies on the author and publisher to get everything as right as they can, and since there is no quality control whatsoever at a subsidy press, I'm going to assume that quality lapses are greater there than at a commercial press. I also stand by my assertion that most people don't read and think critically, and shouldn't be expected to research everything, anyhow, in a book they pay good money for.

With the proliferation of cheap subsidy and POD presses, I see dissmenination of bad, possibly harmful, information as eventually being a fairly serious problem. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon and other online merchants eventually even stop listing subsidy press books due to this.

Quote :

With the proliferation of cheap subsidy and POD presses, I see dissmenination of bad, possibly harmful, information as eventually being a fairly serious problem. I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon and other online merchants eventually even stop listing subsidy press books due to this.

And what is Amazon going to do with its own POD press, LC?

I have to disagree with you on this one, respectfully.

Ann

alj wrote:

And what is Amazon going to do with its own POD press, LC?

Nothing good, LOL! They've already dropped their Buy Button from every POD except their own, haven't they? Everything evolves, and Amazon is no different. I would not be surprised if they eventually try to strong arm the large, commercial houses in this manner. Textbook publishers already allow schools to pick and choose chapters from different books and POD them -what's to stop Amazon from insisting that these only be printed on their press if the pubs want their other books sold there? And as POD becomes more common for commercial houses, watch the same thing unfold.

ETA -Amazon UK has actually experimented with this.

LC said:

Quote :

I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon and other online merchants eventually even stop listing subsidy press books due to this.

then LC said:

Quote :

I would not be surprised if [Amazon] eventually try to strong arm the large, commercial houses in this manner... -what's to stop Amazon from insisting that these only be printed on their press?

Now I'm really confused.