The Pick-Up Game

Thanks for bringing the thread back on track, Carol. Sorry to have derailed it.

Hi Carol,

I think Merri must have missed the thread about how to write a Mills and Boon romance novel. The BBC programme highlighted how difficult it is to write what is considered to be light-weight literature. The constraints on the author are enormous and writers have to be passionate about the genre and have a burning desire to write stories that fans will love to read. It's a two way process and writing for yourself is an absolute no-no. Other genres may not be quite so demanding but, even so, for commercial publishers, authors must write for their readers.

Most PA authors end up with PA because they have written something they want to write. It's one of the criticisms most often levelled at POD publsihed authors by members of AW, who are striving to learn how to craft a novel that will snag an agent/publisher. They look down on PA authors because they want to fast track to publication and get their work published just the way it is written.

Merri can write to suit herself, it isn't going to affect me in any way. I just think she should be aware of what options are open to her if she continues to be "selfish".

This is the thread:

http://www.publishedauthors.org/chatter-box-f3/how-to-write-a-mills-and-boon-t1188.htm

Thanks, Shelagh. I haven't read the thread you mentioned and I look forward to reading it.

I hear you Shelagh, and we are fighting an uphill battle. My 2008 Writer's Market says there are "over five million copies sold." The competition is enormous.

Now take a book like People of the Book by Geraldine Brooks, "Amazon Best of the Month, January 2008: One of the earliest Jewish religious volumes to be illuminated with images, the Sarajevo Haggadah survived centuries of purges and wars thanks to people of all faiths who risked their lives to safeguard it. Geraldine Brooks, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of March, has turned the intriguing but sparely detailed history of this precious volume into an emotionally rich, thrilling fictionalization that retraces its turbulent journey." (From the review on amazon.)

Now that's the kind of book I'd like to write, if I could spend the next twenty years on research, and it seems historical fiction, no matter how many actual facts are included, doesn't have to go through as intensive a vetting process as nonfiction. At least I don't think so.

I couldn't write a formula book if I tried. So I guess that means if we can't play by the rules, we're destined to be forever on the pick-up team.

Shelagh, you are a great believer in self-publishing and what an author can accomplish this way, but we don't all have your energy, connections, and outgoing nature.

Carol

I hear you too, Carol. I used PA for my first novel because no other publisher was interested in it. I did want to fast track it and I wasn't prepared to navel gaze trying to hone it to one size fits all. I'm not ashamed of it or sorry that I chose PA. Brenda is, and so are a number of other disappointed authors. But, for me, it worked out okay.

One of PA's authors, Jess Parker, died last year. Before he died, he had three books published by PA. He was a retired ex-navy man who loved to go around Washington State selling his books at the fairs. I think there are thousands of retired PA authors around the country doing exactly the same thing. Like Jess, one day they will be gone but the last days of their lives will have been spent fulfilling a lifetime desire to see their work published. How could anyone be so mean as to deny them that pleasure and compare them to aggressive, up-coming, young authors, who want something entirely different?

Shelagh wrote:

One of PA's authors, Jess Parker, died last year. Before he died, he had three books published by PA. He was a retired ex-navy man who loved to go around Washington State selling his books at the fairs. I think there are thousands of retired PA authors around the country doing exactly the same thing. Like Jess, one day they will be gone but the last days of their lives will have been spent fulfilling a lifetime desire to see their work published. How could anyone be so mean as to deny them that pleasure and compare them to aggressive, up-coming, young authors, who want something entirely different?

I agree Shelagh. I'm proud of my PA books as well, being a retired person who likes to write. I'm also proud to be among authors like those here.

I have been reading about vetting and finding out it doesn't really happen for books like we think it does.

Carol

Is this an either/or situation? We write formulaic novels or we write for ourselves? Pick-up or team competition, with nothing in between? Does everything have to fit the pattern of a specific genre - romance, mystery, historical, etc to be accepted? Is there no place today for just good old literary fiction? Are we saying that LC is correct in saying our readers are "dumber than dirt"?

I do consider my probable audience when I write, but that audience is a fairly well-read, well-educated audience that would be bored with formulas. I want my readers to think and be challenged. Is that wrong?

Ann

Dear Shelagh,

I remember Jess and was sorry when he died. He liked me too. We had a few discussions.

I have never been sorry that PublishAmerica published my book, Wooffer. I suppose that is because I am not a real writer. At least not like all of you. I doubt that I will write another book just like Wooffer. I have learned a lot since the writing of that book.

I still cannot take a lot of time to write. Perhaps later when I have less to do with the making of a living. I do have ideas, though. I feel I am one of the really lucky people. I have been blessed with all of you and your kind hearts and smart brains.

Maybe one day I will write a masterpiece. I will send it to Shelagh to get is published.

Love,
Betty

merrihiatt wrote:

I consider myself to be "every woman" so to speak. I write what I would like to read myself. I also post the chapters on a private website where about 30 people read it and make comments. Most of them are every day people, definitely not in the publishing industry. Just folks who like to read a wide variety of genres.

I believe Merri does write for others, for every day people, and in the past she spoke of reading to be inspired. She is writing for herself and people like her, to inspire and be inspired.

I've been wandering the internet and found a good article on nonfiction writing that could apply to the subject here.

http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2006/07/2006072101c.htm

Ann, I don't think it has to be either/or. In fact if we don't love what we do, perhaps others won't either.

Carol

Betty,

You are a beautiful writer. And you give us wonderful stories here.

Carol

That was a good article, Carol. I write fiction, but I still found it very interesting. I'm in the process of writing a book based on the gifts our bodies give us that we don't always pay attention to (i.e., elbows, toes, spine, etc.). The idea would be to have 52 sections that a person focuses on for one week at a time. They don't have to be in any order and if someone wants to take longer with a section they certainly can. The premise would be to pay attention to that area of the body for seven days while going about your normal day-to-day activities.

I started making a list of all the different areas (some physical, others more abstract, like imagination and creativity). My list ended up having 120 areas! Ha!

So, Carol, you are right, especially in this particular endeavor, I do like to inspire. The romance novels aren't as much of an inspiration as a fun pleasure and an escape, but usually there is some circumstance that requires integrity, heart and a willingness to trust another person before my heroine can grow, change and follow the path of her soul.

Ann, I too have been under the assumption that my readers are intelligent, humorous and don't want the typical boy meets girl, girl falls in love with boy, they fight, they end up together formulaic writing. Obstacles do arise, but I like to shake things up with honest conversations and interesting plot twists. I can hardly stand it when a woman in a book won't speak up and say what's on her mind. Drives me crazy! Real women say what's on their mind!!!

Very interesing article about romance novels, too. I don't get too bogged down in exactly when my love interests meet and it wouldn't bother me at all if someone handed me a list that said chapter one is supposed to be about your heroine's current situation, chapter two should include a close friend, chapter three needs to be when the two people meet, etc.

I write in sections, or scenes. I generally have an idea of what I want to happen before I begin writing. I'm not always sure exactly how it will unfold, but if my goal is to show how close two friends are or how the couple has a playful banter (or whatever), then it just sort of flows. Generally anywhere from two to four scenes will make up a chapter, with a connecting/transitional paragraph or two (or three) in between.

I never thought I had a formula for writing, but maybe that is my formula. I don't write outlines, but I usually know the beginning and the ending. The fun is filling in all the middle!

I guess that makes us both real women, Merri.

Ann

Yea for real women!!!

It makes you ideal PA authors. It makes you less likely to find a commercial publisher. Agents are looking for flexible authors because they know from experience (not from the joy of writing) exactly what publishers are seeking. Publishers are looking for more of the same from a different angle/perspective (reinventing a new wheel).

Although publishers do sometimes go out on a limb for something entirely different, you have to ask yourself if that author is you. Out of hundreds of thousands of POD published authors, are you the one who is most likely to succeed?

merrihiatt wrote:

I'm in the process of writing a book based on the gifts our bodies give us that we don't always pay attention to (i.e., elbows, toes, spine, etc.). The idea would be to have 52 sections that a person focuses on for one week at a time. They don't have to be in any order and if someone wants to take longer with a section they certainly can. The premise would be to pay attention to that area of the body for seven days while going about your normal day-to-day activities.

So, Carol, you are right, especially in this particular endeavor, I do like to inspire. The romance novels aren't as much of an inspiration as a fun pleasure and an escape, but usually there is some circumstance that requires integrity, heart and a willingness to trust another person before my heroine can grow, change and follow the path of her soul.

Merri,

Your idea for a book sounds interesting. One weekend we spent with my sister-in-law, all weekend we kept writing down sayings we have about body parts like "break a leg," "you're a pain in the neck," "off the top of my head" etc. It was fun and interesting. She is my artist and has often considered putting all the sayings in a book with her artwork.

In the last part of your quote. That is the message you have in your writing, the question you answer.

(I think I'm connecting with you here as a fellow cancer survivor. I see your survivor status in your thoughts on writing.)

Carol

PA was fine for my first book, a non-fiction one with a limited audience, but the two books I'm working on now are both fiction. I will be looking for a means to a wider audience, placement on bookstore shelves, and attention from reviewers who can make a difference.

I'm still asking my question: Is this an either/or situation? Are the mainstream houses and viable small publishers only publishing formulaic novels? What happened to literary fiction? Are there no readers out there who want to read books that surprise them with plots that get them involved in the story, wanting to keep reading to see how it ends?

I'm willing to do a lot of work. I want to learn as much about my craft as I can. I understand that it is a craft that must be mastered. I would like for it to be an artistic creation as well, and art is about self-expression.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere.

Ann

Ann,

I am one who believes there is a middle ground, and loves literary works, books with different topics and twists. But I am not a mainstream reader either, so my opinion doesn't mean to much when looking at the masses.

My friends who are readers, retired men and women, like the books you are speaking of Ann. And we have a lot of time for reading. Right now, our friends who have a condo next to ours on vacation are spending their time reading many books in the sun on their deck. (They also live in the north where one won't even consider going out on their decks until mid May.)

Carol

What are publishers looking for?

http://www.bookcatcher.com/articles/what-are-publishers-looking-for.php

From our own spunk-on-a-stick, the secret to writing success:

http://abookinside.blogspot.com/2009/01/secret-to-success-writing-phase.html

Do the quiz to find out if you are what publishers are looking for:

http://www.getpublishedadvice.co.uk/quizQuestions.html

You can cheat by looking up the correct answers. You can also cheat by selecting the correct answer that doesn't really apply to you (you tick that you are prepared to do presentations when really you would run a mile!). I scored 20 points and gave honest replies. See how you do.

My score was 21, and I didn't look first. Thanks, Shelagh, I've bookmarked the site.
Ann

I also took the test. Didn't look and really did answer truthfully. What I don't understand - and this is with all due respect to both Shelagh and Ann because I know they are two very talented writers - is how you can be serious about your work, and answer the questions truthfully, and score less than 24.

I wonder what questions the two of you answered differently than I did. Which things did you not do that most serious writers would do? I'm really curious on this.

By the way, I may have been more focused because of my songwriting background, when we had to write something commercial if we expected to have any chance of seeing a song recorded.

Don,

I think Ann, Marie and I all knew the correct answers but we didn't want to commit 100% to saying we would do all that was being asked. We were honest with ourselves. Of the four of us, I received the lowest score and you the highest. I think that reflects us pretty well. I am not ambitious. I did not expect Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine to be a bestseller. I do not rate myself highly as a storyteller. I write well because I work hard at it, not because I have a natural talent for writing. If everyone thought like me, there would not be a NEPAT thread or a PA board on AW because, despite all the shortcomings, PA authors would not feel the need to vent their hurt feelings -- they simply wouldn't have any. Instead, like me, they would be working hard on the next thing in their lives and not worrying about how things had turned out in the past. They would have learned from their mistakes and moved on.

I can't say that I'm laid back and nothing much gets to me and then say that I scored 24 on a test designed to select out those most likely to succeed. My personality suggests that I'm not. I'm a hard worker. Dependable. Least likely to stab anyone in the back. Never holds a grudge. Lets bygones be bygones. I did well to score 20!

E Don asked:

Quote :

I wonder what questions the two of you answered differently than I did. Which things did you not do that most serious writers would do? I'm really curious on this.

My score for 1 was 2, based mostly on the first part of the answer: "I take my inspiration from all around me." The “something else I’ve seen" is not about other works, but from people, nature – the world around me. That one, I think, is a matter of perception.

My score for 2 was 2. That’s just the way it is.

My score for 6 was 2. I don’t think once or twice a year is “often,” or I would have selected the 3 point answer. I would do more if given the opportunity

I think the reason for a range of answers is that different people will read the questions differently. Like Marie said, the wording of the answers is not always how we might have said it.
There's always more than one way of skinnin' that cat.

Ann

I got an 18. Yea I'm the lowest scorer among us!!! hee hee Like Marie, I would have liked to reword a few of the questions as none of the answers exactly fit. I ended up just choosing the one closest to what I would do or how I felt.