My farewell to the PA board

E. Don Harpe wrote:

Major publishers, small publishers, independent publishers, vanity publishers, self publishers, and publishers like PA all serve a purpose, and there's no reason all of them can't go about their business in the way they are accustomed to doing.

That's very true. There's so much choice out there these days. Different projects may require different approaches, but surely with the number of alternatives there must be something to suit everybody.

I understand the business model of PA and others in various aspects of publishing. My first book is with PA and it is not a book that I promote, bring to signings etc. It was a first effort and would require a rewrite for me to promote it with my other two books. Given that I am willing to let it sit or if I can get the rights back, I will redo it and promote it.

I don't feel any anger towards PA, because at that stage the book would not have been published elsewhere, On the other hand when you advance some in writing, an early effort can seem out of step with current efforts. Given the distribution and pricing, I don't consider the book to be on the market.

I can understand the conflict one would have if the book/books they have with a publisher they don't like are considered to be their very best or only work.

cturkel,

I understand that mixture as well, and used the example of the mental health center to explain that. To explain it further, I had sold the business to my partner. One day he had a massive stroke and died three days later. I bought the business back from his widow within days as it needed a licensed professional as owner to be legitimate to accept insurance claims. Then the business manager and I had to go through my partner's office, determine which clients we needed to call and sometimes were not able to read the records for the tears in our eyes. I saw his clients, which was as much mixing emotions with business needs as I have ever come close to. And that day the city sewer backed up into the business basement.

Maybe I could do all that because I had spent 18 years as a stay-at-home mom of six kids of many ages and had multi-tasked to the hilt. But maybe it is as people said, that I understood mixing business and emotions.

And I have to admit, that what bothered me the most about PA was that they published so many, that I was not among a select few.

E. Don and Dt, I agree with both of you completely.

Carol

There is a reason they published so many and it's the same way McD's makes a profit off fries: Volume, volume, volume.

On average, a PA book will sell 75 copies (this is from a court filing about 5 years ago). Now mulitply 75x30000 authors. Thats 2,250,000 books.

Now let's say the average cost of one their books is $20, which seems to be the case. So 20X2,250,000 equals 45,000,000 bucks since PA started. Even if only half their authors sold 75 copies they'd still would have made 22,000,000 in ten years.

It's simply this: If you wont purchase your books, someone else will come along who will purchase their books. All in volume.

If PA is making all that money, and their books aren't on book store shelves, and not once has any of their titles been on the NY Times Bestseller list, where is that money coming from?

From their authors.

*Note: Is this not intended to be a dig at their authors or their books. Just food for thought.

Carol,

You said you completely agree with Don, who said: "the simple fact that they publish so many people who would never be published otherwise is a huge plus, both for PA and for the authors who might never see their work in book form were it not for PA, or a company like them." Then you say that you wish PA had only published a select few. Do you honestly believe that you would be one of those select few? I certainly don't feel the same way. I am grateful that PA signed so many authors because it gave me, as a non-US author, a chance that would not have been possible any other way.

If the thing that bothered you the most would have excluded you, why did it bother you the most?

I don't believe Carol said that, Shelagh.

Carol Troestler wrote:

cturkel,

I understand that mixture as well, and used the example of the mental health center to explain that. To explain it further, I had sold the business to my partner. One day he had a massive stroke and died three days later. I bought the business back from his widow within days as it needed a licensed professional as owner to be legitimate to accept insurance claims. Then the business manager and I had to go through my partner's office, determine which clients we needed to call and sometimes were not able to read the records for the tears in our eyes. I saw his clients, which was as much mixing emotions with business needs as I have ever come close to. And that day the city sewer backed up into the business basement.

Maybe I could do all that because I had spent 18 years as a stay-at-home mom of six kids of many ages and had multi-tasked to the hilt. But maybe it is as people said, that I understood mixing business and emotions.

And I have to admit, that what bothered me the most about PA was that they published so many, that I was not among a select few.

E. Don and Dt, I agree with both of you completely.

Carol

Bold added by me.

Yes, I can read. But I did not and do not interpret it the same way you did.

Shelagh, I hesitated to say that was my first impression, but it was the truth until I thought about it. I realized this publisher gave many authors, like me, an opportunity they would not have had otherwise. As I have said frequently, they said "yes" when others didn't even bother to write me that they weren't interested. I completely understand about not being one of a select few, and am not proud of that first impression. But in thinking about it further came to think as E. Don, that they provided opportunities not found elsewhere.

Over the years I have found authors published by PA who are excellent writers with excellent books. I am proud to be among them, and have learned from them and am becoming a better writer from knowing them.

Carol

My apologies, Shelagh. Looks like I was the one who was wrong.

In reply to cturkel.

OK, let’s say that your reasoning is sound and your math correct, and that PA did make $22,000,000 in ten years. Or leave it at your original figure of $45,000,000 for a ten year period. That comes out to roughly $2.2 million a year, or $4.5 million a year, which is a lot of money, but not a lot for a business to earn. A business that makes less than $5 million a year is not considered a big business, not when big businesses routinely earn in the billions, rather than the millions.

However, what’s wrong with PA making decent money in the publishing business? Isn’t that what they’re in business to do? I’ve never seen anything anywhere that says PA isn’t tying to earn money, so I have to ask what amount would be considered all right.

Of course, if the average cost of a PA book (or a book by anyone else, for that matter) is $20, then the fact is that not all of that is profit. There are huge costs associated with the publishing and printing industry, and if a book sells for $20, less than half that amount is actually profit for the publisher.

And sure, some of the authors will buy more copies than others, but that doesn’t affect me in the least. It’s not money out of my pocket, and if PA has to sell books to stay in business, then what’s wrong with that? The idea seems to be that because they sell more books to their authors than to the public that they are doing some illegal, when that just isn’t so. It’s not even immoral. A lot of people may not like it, but PA doesn’t force them to sign on the dotted line. They tell you what they offer, knowing that some people will not understand and that some will actually find the fulfillment of their huge dreams in that offer, but still they don’t coerce you to sign, nor do they promise you anything that they don’t deliver. Some people think that once they sign the contract they will begin to sell thousands of books and will automatically become millionaires, and when it doesn’t happen they blame PA. They are blinded by the possibilities, and fail to see the realities of the business.

PA is not any worse than a lot of other businesses out there, and once again, I think that by offering publishing to a large amount of people who might never see a book in print otherwise, they serve a useful purpose.

I also think that some authors and would be authors don’t think anyone is entitled to be published unless they “pay their dues” in the traditional manner, and they are angry that some get a book on the market in a very short time when they themselves have tried for years and haven’t managed to do so. They see it as a short cut, and they get very upset because authors they don’t think are as good as they are can be in print so easily, when they can’t get there at all.

I’m sorry, but the world of publishing is changing, and the age old elite ideas that once existed are falling by the wayside. People are looking for, and finding, new ways to do things, and the publishing business is not exempt from those new ideas.

I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they want to with a book they have written. It doesn’t offend me when they get published even when I know the product may not be all that good. After all, I have the same options. I can do whatever I want to with my manuscript, and I honestly believe that all of you, and everyone else, should have the same opportunity.

I think many of us had false assumptions in the beginning that had nothing to do with the contract. I found PA online and put a query in to them after having sent many. Being discouraged, I did not expect anything, and then was thrilled when they responded, and then was disappointed when I realized perhaps I wasn't as good as I thought I was, and then realized the reality of the situation and found it wasn't really a bad situation at all.

I'm sorry I mentioned my first impression. I have difficulty having confidence in my writing when most of the time it is rejected, and thought getting published by PA was some sort of a stamp of approval.

Carol

deleted by merri

deleted by merri

Tell me Merri, looking back and knowing that in the world of publishing most books never get accepted, would you rather have had your book published with PA or just left it as a file on your computer?

I, and many others, would rather have the book than the file, but hey, that's just us. I realize that not everyone feels the same, and I understand how that is.

The vast majority of people who write books never get them accepted by any agent or any publisher, and many spend years with their hopes high just knowing that the next time they send it to someone will be the magic time. But the fact is that usually it just doesn't happen.

PA publishes most anything, and they put your books in book stores and they try to sell to the authors rather than the public, but the alternative, for most people, is to never see their book in print.

We all have to decide which one is for us, and as for me, I will never admonish anyone for making their own decision about it.

Marie,

How did your arbitration go?

Ann

I'll be as honest as you are Marie. I think PA's prices are higher because they think they have a captive market place in their authors. I think they sell them higher because the authors will buy them, and they buy them for a lot of reasons. I have stated here and in other places that I think my books would have sold much better had they been priced nearer to $10, but of course, I had no say so in the matter.

They send out the constant solicitation letters for the same reasons as so many other businesses do. They, like many other businesses, are feeling a serious financial crunch right now, and so they've cut their prices and are attempting to sell even more books to their primary target buyers.

I have never failed to get a royalty statement, and I actually think that is cause for a lawsuit, and I suggest you pursue that avenue.

I have no idea of PA's profit margin, nor do I really care. I also have no love for them, but I don't feel they deserve the bad press they get from so many people who don't seem to have any real reasons for feeling that way, they just want to save the rest of the would be authors out there from making what they think is a mistake. Personally, I can see your reasoning and don't have any problem with it, but I think a lot of those trying to save so many should just get on with their lives and leave the saving to the churches.

I don't think PA sells books to authors so that they can store them away like an eccentric millionaire's art collection. The books are supposed to be shared/sold to anyone interested in reading them. PA is simply cutting out the middleman and allowing authors to make a bigger profit on their own books than they would by selling them through Amazon (who expect a 40% minimum discount).

It isn't really for authors to argue about book prices and discounts to bookstores. They wouldn't do it if they signed with a New York publisher, so why do it with PA?

Marie had a dispute with PA and went to arbitration, as is her right and, hopefully, the situation was resolved satisfactorily.

I think that the most positive thing any of us can do is to take all the positives out of whatever choices we made and use them to move on to better things. Jenny has done that and Brenda is doing the same. Maybe we should follow their lead and find new ways of seeing our work published instead of dwelling on the past.

Living in the now is a gift, that's why we call it the present.

"Living in the now is a gift, that's why we call it the present."

Beautiful, Shelagh.

I have a suggestion: Why don't we all quit worrying about PA and writing about them? It seems that most people are in agreement, at least for the most part, that PA does exactly what it says it will do, nothing more and nothing less. I think we'd be better off to move onto another subject before someone makes a nasty comment and we have a brawl. It isn't worth having that happen. Sorry I started all this.

You don't have to argue about the pricing, but there's nothing that says you have to be satisfied with it. The fact, Shelagh, is that most PA books are indeed priced higher than books by many of the famous authors. I guess they (the major publishers) know they will sell a lot of books by their name authors, so they can price them cheaper, and PA thinks they need to make as much off each sale as possible. I'm fine with that, but I still stand by my observation that I think my books would have sold more copies, thereby making more for both me and PA, had they been priced at around the $10 mark.

I have never dwelled on anything other than the positive side of my relationship with PA, and I've been very vocal in posting that opinion anywhere. Still, there is no reason not to explore the negative side, knowing that there is much we can learn about the next deal by looking at every aspect of the one we have already been through.

When knowledge of a negative can help you make better and more informed decisions in the future, then the negative becomes a positive, and it is to our benefit to take advantage of every learning experience we can.

Yes, I believe that, Don. I think a writers' forum is the place to discuss the positives and negatives in the industry.

However, I'm trying to live in the present in several areas of my life.

Dick has a good point, and it's sad but true that when one or two of the PA bashers show up on a message board, more of them soon follow. They are nothing if not loyal to each other and they all preach the same anti PA gospel from the same page. Once they find a place where people will defend PA, they flock to it like ants to a picnic. No offense intended, but we all know that is the way it happens.

After that, the conversation almost always takes an turn toward angry, and if it gets bad enough, the entire board suffers. This same topic has ruined a couple of pretty good message boards already, and we know this is true. I, for one, would not like to see it happen here.

There's that word again. Why can't we discuss the pros and cons without being labeled as bashers? No one here is upset, we're having a darn good discussion, so why call someone a name?

Personally, I want to hear the pros and cons of different publishers. That's how I learned about my current one.

Ok, I retract the basher name that I used to describe those individuals who show up wanting to tell us how bad PA is. The problem is that they don't want to discuss the pro's and con's of PA, only the con's. But, I'm content to let these people go without a name of any kind, so long as they are content to actually open their minds to both sides of the debate.

However, Brenda, while a good debate is one thing, I've seen on more than one board that most of these folks are very single minded in their approach, and will never give in to a single point that shows PA in any kind of positive light. You know that as well as I do. Their intention is to browbeat every message board they can into submission, and if they can't make everyone see their way of looking at PA, they do all they can to destroy the board.

I just don't think we need to let this topic sink another board.