Style and Point of View

I just posted this at "another" writers site, and thought it would make a good discussion here.

I was happily first-person writing away in my first novel, Keechie, when I found myself needing to have another character speaking and having thoughts that the first person character was not privy to. I thought I had it solved by starting a new chapter, or by using the transition techniques like double-space breaks, *** or ###.

One reviewer, who would have given me 5 stars, only gave me four because of the changing POV (point of view) that I had so cleverly (I thought) solved.

Writing in First Person is very limiting in that the main character cannot know the thoughts of others (unless he's psychic), and cannot be aware of conversations made out of his presence. I switched to Third Person (Omnipotent Observer) in the sequel.

I don't think I will ever write in First Person again, unless I am writing my autobiography! LOL

WHich POV's do y'all usually write in? Have you developed a "style" that is unigue to you? Have you ever mixed POV's in your books?

Good topic, Brew.

My first novel was written in 1st person POV. I found it very limiting. Too easy to "I and me" myself into oblivion. By the second novel, I had switched to third. I remain there. I like to be able to get into the heads of the characters.

Now, I play with present vs past tense.

So much fun; this writing thing.

You're right about it being "fun" Rhett - as long as the words and ideas are coming faster than I can type. Then I usually "write myself into a corner" by changing the story line that I had initially intended, then realizing that things I said earlier in the story will need changing to accomodate it. Aaaarrrrrrgggggh!

I still don't understand what that reviewer meant by my POV being a problem. It seemed clear to everyone else that the POV had changed by my starting a new chapter at the switch. I didn't do anything that other writers have done - unless she saw an "oops" that I missed.

Speaking of past and present tense... have any of you grown to HATE the Word spelling/grammar checker as I have? Especially that "Passive Voice - no suggestions" thing!

Brew,
my book, To Beirut and Back was a true story and written in the first person. I used lots of dialogue that existed and that helped to avoid so much "I" or "me." There was much benefit to writing in that manner.
Since that time, I try to write through the eyes of the characters. The tough thing to avoid is "telling" instead of having it character driven. A author friend was told that by a publisher recently that he/she was "telling" like a reporter. The author objected insisting that it was his/her style of writing. When that kind of advice is ingnored, one is destined to fail in attracting a mainline publisher.
As for changing POV, I'm not sure of the problem either Brew. I use that in my current novel. Through the eyes of the reader, does the reader know of the change? Is there a bridge that reflects that? I think if the change causes reader confusion then there may be a problem.

The reviewer probably meant she/he didn't like you changing POV since the novel was written in 1st person. The norm is if the novel is written in 1st, then every chapter should be in 1st and you do not switch to another person's POV even if you switch chapters. As you found, 1st can be limiting, altho I think it depends on the genre. If you want another person's POV, then you should write the entire novel in 3rd.

Brenda,
that makes good sense.

Hi Abe!

It's about 1:30am so I'm about ready to go to bed. I don't know the time difference where you are, but nice to see you, even if for a brief moment.

It's nine hours Brenda.
About the time I get up in the morning you are getting ready to go down. Hmmmm.

So a brief moment it is.

It's okay to change the P.O.V as long as the P.O.V refers to something MC did or said. That way the reader is still relating to your MC and it dosn't get confusing.

I hope that makes sense.

Brenda's point is a good one. If you want to switch points of view throughout your novel, you need to establish early on that you're doing this. Many authors switch points of view with every chapter, usually writing each one from a different character's perspective, often third person restricted.

It's somewhat of a stumbling block to read 300 pages of first person or third person restricted and then suddenly have another character pop in with his/her thoughts.

Malcolm

Abe, I thought I had made it perfectly clear that the POV had changed, but this was my first novel and I just simply didn't have the knowledge I have now (limited as that is). My main chracter was based on my childhood, so naturally I began writing in first person. Didn't give it a second thought... that is, until I got to a part of the story where I needed another character to speak and have thoughts that "I" wasn't privy to. So I began a new chapter.

The review was from Lighthouse Literary Reviews, All in all, it was an excellent review!

Here it is:

OUR AND A HALF BEACON REVIEW FOR KEECHIE

Brian has always had a passion for “digging in the dirt,” then on one of his utings he discovers an Indian woman that has been living off of the land alone for nearly fifty years. Knowing that Brian is a special person immediately, the Indian woman, Keechie, takes him in as a member of her clan and of her family. She teaches him the ways of her people and in return Brian seeks out the rest of her long lost family.

I thought this story played out very well. In the beginning, it seemed to have a simple tone and would be a pleasant rainy day read, but the more I delved into the characters, the more the story line became multifaceted. I loved that Keechie became the by-chance benefactor to Brian’s formal education and truly to his foundation for growing up to be the person he was. It was a feel good story of learning about our elderly and different cultures. Thinking there would be only one way to end this plot, I was not at all prepared for the turn this book took. If you cleaned up some simple POV problems, I would recommend this book to all.

Reviewed by: C.C.

********

I'm not ashamed of it... LOL

I know that POV-hopping is done. I just read a mainstream published novel recently (hardcover) that flipped between first and third person POV's. It was well-written. One thing I noticed; the POV switch occurred early on, and continued throughout the book. Though it was a bit unsettling at first, I caught on and enjoyed the book.

Probably, it is like everything else. Rules are rules, and they are meant to be broken. Or, perhaps if the writer is good enough; it is allowed.

It wasn't the first time I had read a novel with POV changes. Thinking back, I have read several.

I agree that if a book is well-written, a POV switch is hardly noticeable, at least not as a problem. Now if it changes from first person to third person with the same character, THAT would be off-putting!

The narrative should make it obvious which character is the first person, no matter which character's viewpoint is being portrayed, but I think it is still a good Idea to make a chapter break or other means to let the reader know that a change is occuring.

Brew, I offer congratulations on a good review. Perhaps I will get a chance to read Keechie soon, and be able to tell how unsettling the change is for myself.

I use 3rd person almost exclusively in everything I write. I just find it easier to tell the story as an observer with insight into the characters.

Thanks, Zada. When I wrote the sequel/prequel, I did it in third. Funny thing, I had to keep going back and removing the "I's" and "my's" `cause I kept slipping back into first person automatically. I just get so involved with my character... LOL

I am he and he is me and we are all together, coo-coo-ca-choo.

Keechie, (the book) is set in a very real place—the place where I grew up, and "The "Rock" on top of the mountain where I buried Keechie (in the book) with her ancestors actually exists. That's it in my avatar photo. To illustrate how strongly I identify with my characters, on Easter this year I took my daughter to "The Rock". She feels the specialness of the place as I do.

While we were sitting there, looking out over the valley below, I said, "... and Keechie is buried right down there."

"Earth to Daddy... reality check!" she said, but not without looking to where I was pointing.

I like the way your daughter thinks, Brew. But I also feel it is part our natures to 'live' our works. It helps the characters vibrate with life.

My daughter is my best critic and supporter, Zada. At 15, she has a very good head on her shoulders, and an opinion on everything, and doesn't mind sharing it - loudly and often.

Since I have finished the sequel, I don't know if there's enough story left for a third, but...

I feel my characters are just hanging there waiting, tepping their feet impatiently, for me to put them back to work.It's like they chose me to tell their story, and it isn't finished yet. They don't care about sales, rejection letters or praise. I am haunted.

Writers always used to be taught that if a book started out in first person it had to stay that way throughout. I don't know who your reviewer was, but possibly it was someone still trapped in that school of thought. Many fine writers have broken that "'rule" to excellent effect (as every writing rule is meant to be broken, once it's understood and if that break is for the right reasons).

As just one example--hard-boiled crime fiction, from Chandler on, has almost always been written in first person. As has been pointed out, that approach puts certain limits on the writer. But it also plays to one of the mystery's main appeals, in that the reader only knows what the detective/narrator knows, so all the clues are presented to the reader as the detective gets them and the reader has the chance to figure out the mystery before the detective.

James Lee Burke, one of the greatest American crime writers ever, writes his crime novels in first person, but his concern is less with solving the mystery than with exploring, through the detective character, some aspect of society. So his books often slip into third person, allowing the reader to see something that the detective may find out about by the end of the book but doesn't know about in "real time." He breaks the rules, but he knows the rules and he breaks them on purpose.

I almost always write in third person, with multiple viewpoint characters. Recently I wrote a novel in first person (with occasional forays into third, to get into the heads of other characters). Nobody's read it yet except my editor at Simon & Schuster, but he called it "fantastic" and didn't have a problem with the viewpoint shifts. I think most contemporary readers are more attuned to this than the reviewer who didn't like them in your book (although I haven't read your book, so am only basing this on your description of it), so I'm not too worried about the response.

One more note in this already long post... a lot of writers enjoy first person (even present tense first person) because there seems to be a greater sense of immediacy in the writing--it feels natural to talk about "I" and "me" because we all do that in daily life. But if the nature of your book doesn't allow for that, one trick you can use is to write it in first person first, then go back through and change the POV references (and tense, if necessary). It requires some rewriting--but then, you should be rewriting anyway--and you might find that the freshness and immediacy the first person gave you is retained even in third person, past tense.

Jeff

That summed it up pretty well, Jeff. I broke a few rules intentionally, and probably many more unintentionally because I just simply didn't know any better! That first book was a learning experience, let me tell you!

One of the other rules I broke on purpose was writing in "dialect". It was important to the story and especially to the character, Keechie, who was a half-breed (Indian mother and a black father who taught her to speak "white man's language"). I figured Joel Chandler Harris got away with it - why not me? It's part of my style and people seem to enjoy it. I wrote a short story for Amazon Shorts called Good Ol' Boys ~ Catfishin' and it remained in the top ten in the humor genre' for several weeks. All of the "boys'" spoke in their down-home suthun accents. Don't get me wrong... writing in dialect can be overdone. I had to modify a lot of it just to make it readable - even for southerners.