Anthology pricing

elysabeth42 wrote:

Like I said with no contract and all - there still not being an answer as to who is receiving the royalties - just take my stories out please - I don't have time to deal with these kinds of things - I was already ripped off on my royalties on those two stories before when they were in print and don't feel like being taken again - E

Sorry, but I don't agree. The book is already in print. It's a little late to be asking for material to be removed. This adds extra work.

It's a little late to be speaking of contracts. If anyone needed one to move forward with a submission, that should have been asked for, or at least discussed, long before now.

I thought we were agreed that profits, if any, would go to pay the costs of this forum which--as far as I know--are mainly being covered by Shelagh.

Let's consider this publicity and stop worrying about getting a check.

Malcolm

Malcolm,

If you feel that giving someone over $7000 to run a website is nothing to worry about, then you are sadly blind. I have laid out the way lulu.com works. I have published through them before. Even if she purchased the ISBN and a distribution package, that still doesn't explain where the royalties are going.

Based on her figures, 48 emails to contributors (that says 48 people should purchase one copy "at cost" (and at cost is what it cost to print it plus shipping) to proof the thing; then those 48 people are supposed to get even 10 friends to order at the $25 price which is roughly $15 over cost to print the book - that is the royalty set by Shelagh; so 10 people per contributor's recommendation purchase a copy - that is $150 profit per contributor; and that $150 x 48 contributors = $7200.) The way I see it those royalties can be given to the contributors for their contribution to the anthology.

I'm glad you don't feel the need to justify where the funds will go after the sales are made, but I do. I worked hard writing my stories and I've admitted over and over again that Shelagh has worked hard to edit and compile this book, but she shouldn't be the only one benefitting from the royalties, even if she needs upkeep for the website. You wont get any argument from me that it was a joint effort. Yet, it is being made out like it wasn't any effort or work on our part and we are not to benefit from it.

It hasn't gone to print yet and my stories can easily be removed and she can reload the file - reset the price and go from there - (My stories were reprints where I had the full rights to them and there wasn't much if any editing needed for them). Until it has been proofed by all contributors, it shouldn't go to print anyway. I cannot afford to order a copy at the set price right now to proof the book and thereby, I would like my stories removed. -

Malcolm,

The extra work is easy compared with this. Elysabeth's figures are all over the place and totally unrealistic. She is assuming that all the books bought would be bought on lulu.com, so what is the point of putting the book onto the online stores? The royalties from selling on line are small and I've argued with lulu over this that the price on lulu has to be too high to give half-decent royalties on amazon. You really do only make pennies from books that are not sold on lulu. The lowering of prices was meant as a favour to contributors.

It will be far easier for me to reduce the anthology to 279 pages. I think I'd much rather do that.

Thank you Shelagh. I'm not trying to cause your problems but you are not being honest about the royalties. If we promote the book as being ordered from lulu and 10 of our friends order at the $25 price - those figures are correct. You have 48 contributors - now 47 - and at $15 over the cost it is to print the book which is what it would cost me to get a copy to proof it - then you are still making major royalties. Why would we advertise you could buy your book through amazon.com or tell our friends to go somewhere that your royalties are being cut down from, no we would definitely tell our friends to order from the source - directly from the lulu.com site - thus ensuring that the royalties are larger and there is some profit being made.

But you still have avoided answering the question as to where the royalties are really going - whether it be pennies on the dollar or whatever - someone is receiving those funds and I have yet to see that answered.

The book is currently online at $19, so why do you persist in quoting the $25 price?

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I take it you are assuming that there were no costs at all in the book's production? Cover design, editing, layout etc.

My book, The Power of Persuasion, is £10.49 on lulu.com but is selling on amazon marketplace for £7.69. Why would my family and friends buy from lulu when they can save £2.80 ($5.11)?

Because you already said that once it goes to distribution you are raising the price back up to that $25 or more price - you set the $19 price - that is for the contributors to proof the copy so you can make it go live and raise the price. Even at $19 for each contributor you are make over $8 royalties since that is the price set by you not the pricing wizard on lulu - and if every contributor order a proof copy - first at the $25 price and now at the $19 price - hum let's see - some quick calculating - if we had all ordered at least one copy (but we didn't, but some of the contributors ordered more than one copy at the $25 price to proof it no less), - that would be $15 (royalties) x 48 (copies sold) - that is $720 in your pocket right there. Now, you have lowered the price for us to proof again, and at $19 cost for us and if every one us order a copy to proof, which won't happen again, but some have ordered several copies already at the $19 price - that's roughly $8 royalties x 48 - another $384 royalties received by you. Wow - in just a short period of time if you had ever contributor order a copy, you would have made $1000+ in royalties.

Then you said you want each of us to order copies at the $19 to show to friends, co-workers, et cetera and sell them until they go "live the end of October. So each of us purchases 10 copies - that's pretty reasonable. Now at $8 profit still per copy, now that $384 has just gone way into the thousands because you are gettig the royalties from each contributors purchases -

I don't think I'm off base here at all. You are taking my stories out, that is fine with me. Good luck with your sales. I hope you all see lots of profit from this work.

I cannot see giving all that money to maintain a website that probably costs $100 a year - and still no answer to the question as to where the royalties are actually going. - E

I edited my last post:

The book is currently online at $19, so why do you persist in quoting the $25 price?

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I take it you are assuming that there were no costs at all in the book's production? Cover design, editing, layout etc.

My book, The Power of Persuasion, is £10.49 on lulu.com but is selling on amazon marketplace for £7.69. Why would my family and friends buy from lulu when they can save £2.80 ($5.11)?

Whatever I do, you won't be part of it. If you think you would be better off by not being in the anthology, then I would have to agree with you.

I have no answers to your questions because you are talking about a profit that has yet to be made and to argue about the amount that will be is insane.

It's now 2.35 am and my husband just came downstairs to check on me. I said I was okay. I lied.

No one is forcing you to stay up until ungodly hours. You have been the one doing this to yourself. You haven't answered the question - where exactly are the royalties going - large or small - they are going somewhere - and you have set the price - that is not an at cost price at all - for proof purposes and since the book hasn't gone live yet - you shouldn't be making any royalties at all - you should have left the price at cost and let the contributors order their copy to proof at the 0% royalty so that we could all do the proofing.

Then you already asked the contributors to order several copies at the $19 price - you are the one who has to live with the dishonest way you handling this issue, not me. I have done nothing but present with you scenarios that are very possible.

What was your cost? Take that into consideration and even at the figures above - you are still making large royalties. The question remains to be answered - Where are the royalties going? You have avoided that like the plague and it is a sad situation. I was with a publisher who did the same thing and she terminated me because I called her out on her greedy interview, and I refuse to work with someone who cannot honestly tell the people where the royalties are going. With 48 contributors, it is very likely you will see bigger royalties than you are leading us to believe you will -

Please just answer the question - Where are the royalties going?

After you have answered that question - you can make posts disappear - I don't care. I have them copied and so I'll know if they go away.

I think I have asked that question at least 10 times in these posting (taking me away from my paying job I might add) only to have the question avoided that many times and then some. I know you have had emails asking the same question and yet they have gone unanswered.

I don't dispute your hard work (I've been on the editing end of things and I know that it is a chore). I'm questioning where the profits or royalties are actually going - that has never been explained. Whether we give our stories up for no money or we receive a portion of the royalties, we are entitled as contributors to know where the royalties end up and for what reasons. -

So - I'm going to try to make some money from my regular job, I hope you get to bed and think about your answer and post it and then remove my stories tomorrow - since it is not a rush - due to the fact that the book doesn't go to distribution until the end of October which is what I consider it going "live". You have plenty of time -

So why did I end up paying over $29.00 if I could have gotten it for $19.00? Because you didn't say it would be reduced for a limited time before we purchased it. We all jumped at the chance to get it and then you told us about the reduced price. If I am wrong on this, I apologize but according to what I have read, that was what I understood.

I never pay that much for a book ($25.00). Seems high to me. I would love to buy more but one is my limit now as I can't afford anymore, even at $19.00. We, as contributors, should have gotten one book at a lessor price and then any additional ones should have been at regular price, whatever that ended up being.

And you still haven't answered Elysabeth42's question.

Sorry don't mean to get in the middle of this, but I have had some questions also, and would like to know the answer to Elysabeth42's. I don't really care about the royalties. I just think a straight answer is appropriate instead of beating around the bush or no answer at all as Vivian stated.

Thank you.

Ladies, I hate to see us arguing between ourselves. I know I didn't contribute to the anthology, but I'd like to repeat a suggestion I made on another thread, which sadly, seems to have disappeared.

Why not take the royalties/profit from the sale of the anthology and donate it to charity? Perhaps one for ALS or indeed a cancer charity. That way no individual benefits from the profits, but rather, the money goes to a good cause.

Those of us who didn't write anything for inclusion in the anthology could make a donation. I certainly would be happy to do so.

Okay, I think I've found a solution. I will submit the same file for the book (word document) to a private account that will only be viewable by the 48 contributors. Check out this page for more information:

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If one of the contributors would like to submit a book cover for this version of the anthology, then the book will be available at cost price. If the majority of contributors want to use the cover I designed, there will be a small addition to the cost price of the book.

The book will not have an ISBN, will not be distributed and will only be available to contributors to the anthology.

The straight answer to the royalties on this book is: THERE WILL NOT BE ANY ROYALTIES AND I WILL NOT BE MAKING ANY MONEY FROM THE FILE I HAVE PRODUCED FOR THIS BOOK.

If the book cover is used, then I will add a small amount to compensate for my time designing the cover. THIS SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY WILL NOT INCLUDE THE COST OF PRODUCING THE FILE FOR THE BOOK.

As to the sale of the book with the ISBN, I won't be pushing it, and since contributors will be buying their own book, they won't be pushing it either, so the sales will be small and likely to be none at all, in which case, there will be no royalties.

Shelagh,

That isn't answering the question. I don't mind having the anthology as is but originally we contributors should have been able to purchase a proof copy without it being available to the public and without royalties added. The question I have had all along who is receiving the royalties and what are they going to cover. It has nothing to do with the final price of the book (which is what you set and that is including royalties). As a contributor, we should know where the royalties are going. If they are only going to you, then our work is basically stolen from us (since known of us have a contract to know this information). If the royalties are going to cover your costs involved and the rest divided among the contributors, then we should be informed. If you are giving the royalties to charity or other worthy causes, then that's all well and good. But the question remains, who benefits from the royalties and where are the royalties going. That is my concern as is several other people. I have been contacted in private messages with the same concerns.

Why can't you just answer the one question - what are you planning on doing with the royalties? The setting it private should have happened before you set it to go live and allowed us to all purchase a copy for proofing without any extra charges - at cost plus shipping. Once the contributors proofed the copy, then it could be released to go public at whatever price was agreed upon by all the contributors.

Let me pose the question to you one more time, please advise us as to where the royalties are going? How are they being split up or are you the only one who will receive the royalties and what are they to cover?

If this question continues to remain unanswered, then as I stated last night, please remove my stories from the anthology because I cannot work with someone who cannot honestly tell us where the money from sales will go and who it will benefit. As a writer, you know that money is to go to the author not the other way around and giving stories away for free, is not a way to make it in this business.

Jenny wrote:

Ladies, I hate to see us arguing between ourselves. I know I didn't contribute to the anthology, but I'd like to repeat a suggestion I made on another thread, which sadly, seems to have disappeared.

Why not take the royalties/profit from the sale of the anthology and donate it to charity? Perhaps one for ALS or indeed a cancer charity. That way no individual benefits from the profits, but rather, the money goes to a good cause.

Those of us who didn't write anything for inclusion in the anthology could make a donation. I certainly would be happy to do so.

I like Jenny's proposal. I think it should be given serious consideration by all contributors. I do see a slight issue with it, however, in that it will not credit Shelagh for the disproportionately greater effort that she has invested in terms of her personal free time and effort that she has put into the publication. Wheras some contributors could get away (myself included) with a 'happy go lucky' kind of attitude and give all royalties to charity...the same could not be said for Shelagh (and perhaps also to a degree Zada Connaway), who've borne the brunt of all the hard work behind this book.

Something to think about.

Thanks Abdul!

Elysabeth, I've already removed your stories. As you said, the list of contributors is now 47.

The anthology sold at cost price will be sold without my book cover -- I wouldn't want anyone accusing me of ripping them off. The book will be made availbale at cost without the contents page, which is now completely useless with stories missing; there will no foreword or acknowledgements page and whoever supplies the cover can also write the back cover blurb.

The book will have nothing from me for free -- well you wouldn't expect that would you? It will contain the poems and stories and nothing else.

I'm all for giving credit where it is due but as of yet, the question remains unanswered. Where are the royalties going? I don't mind compensating Shelagh a portion of the royalties for her work in putting this anthology together. My biggest problem has been there has been no contract and the fact that as contributors we had to buy copies at a cost that included royalties to proof before it goes "live" and then no one will tell me where all those royalties are going. If we go the way of charity, that is all well and good. But it needs to be answered; how will the royalties be split, if they are split and who are they benefitting.

As pointed out in previous posts - we contributors have been asked to buy several copies at the $19 price (we were asked to purchase copies at the $25 price originally) and yet no one can tell me why proof copies included royalties. If it has not gone to the public, we should have started at the private distribution originally - given the opportunity to purchase a copy to proof, then once all the proofs were made, then it go live and we be offered the opportunity to purchase the books at a discounted price or at cost to sell as we saw fit (which is what the original posting stated on another labeled forum discussion - that contributors would be able to purchase copies at cost and sell at whatever price we wanted so that we would get the royalties - but I cannot find that discussion). I'm not offended that royalties are being made; I'm offended by the fact that Shelagh refuses to answer the question of who will receive all the royalties. We contributors should receive something, especially if we are telling our friends and family about the anthology and those will be our main buyers - people who frequent our websites may purchase copies but for the most part - the contributors' immediately families and friends will be the main bulk of purchases.

If this is agreed upon - to give our royalties to charity or whatever - I'm all for it. But as you can see from this discussion only a handful of people will reply and voice their opinion. And many off the 48 contributors won't say anything at all because they have confronted Shelagh in private and have still gotten no answers. I know I did originally - emailed Shelagh about why the price was so high and how long we had to proof, et cetera. The answer I got was very similar to what I have gotten here - nothing answering the questions posed.

So one more time, Shelagh, please advise us where the royalties are going - how they will be divided up and all or if you are taking a fraction and giving the rest to charities - a straight answer - not this yelling at us on the forum - that is all I ask - E

Elysabeth you are no longer a contributor.

Wonderful. Great. The question is still unanswered and I'm not the only one who has asked this question. I have seen several suggestions but you haven't even considered answering the proposals either. So we are all supposed to just turn our babies over to you and not receive any compensation. It cost you what to produce the file? It cost you how much for the ISBN? It cost you how much for a distribution package through lulu.com? The actual printing cost of the book plus shipping for proofing? So those costs come off the top of the royalties (which you set as the creator of the project) and then the rest of the royalties, where do they go?

I have at least three other people with whom I have been in contact who have asked the same questions of you and yet they go unanswered.

A contract and answers - that is all it takes to fix this discussion - But good luck to all of you. I hope you sell lots of copies. (Personally this whole issue has been handled immaturely by Shelagh in that she has refused to answer the burning question on everyone's mind, even those who don't post or won't post on the forum.)

To all contributors who bought the book: I can't return your money but if you are disastisfied after you have seen the book, email me your address and I will send a replacement copy of the book with no charge. Please forward the delivery email so that I know you did order a book (less than half the contributors did).

Elysabeth, you don't want me to mke a profit off your work. If you buy at cost, I don't want you to make a profit out of my book cover. You didn't receive any money for your stories and I didn't receive any money for the book cover. If any of the contributors want to buy books at cost they get their stories/poems and nothing else.

I never heard of Elysabeth42 before reading these posts but she seems totally out of touch with reality. Despite her claim of being familiar with Lulu, she is unaware of how it actually works. Yes, you set the royalty amount, but if you want the book sold by online retailers it must be very low because of the discount they demand. Then, too, what royalties are under discussion? This is not going to be a bestseller; no one expects that. The whole argument is ridiculous.
Shelagh, I hope you remove her contributions to the anthology. Her "babies" don't add much to it in any event. Put an end to this - and her presence here. Let her spend her time with her little group of amateurs.

I will only speak for myself here. I contributed a story for the anthology willingly, not having a contract or knowing where royalties were going. I did so because I like the people here. I feel honored to be in an anthology with them. And when I did so I trusted Shelagh.

I value my writing skills. I value the writing skills of all here.

I do believe in contracts, written and understood. I felt an understood contract with Shelagh, that she would put this together and it would be available for my purchase if I chose.

I have a contract with the organization that manages my Renewing Life Manuals. I have an understood contract with my artist sister-in-law. She has designed my covers, bookmarks, posters, and has kept track of hours spent and I have paid her by the hour, kept track and deducted expenses from my income tax. i value her skill.

Sometimes people will ask me to do some writing. I carefully decide if I choose to do this for free or ask for compensation. Sometimes compensation has come without my asking, some more than necessary.

I am fortunate to have discretionary funds to purchase books. I am also interested in how this works, since I want to publish some little projects with lulu.

We contributed our stories to Shelagh. I think Shelagh at this point has made it clear what she has done to put the anthology together. Keeping us informed on the progress of this process is probably a very good idea, perhaps keeping track of hours spent on tasks. I know that is really a pain. And putting a price on our heads is not an easy task either. What are our stories worth, what is our skill worth, what are our organizational skills worth? Those are some difficult questions not necessarily understood clearly in our economy at present time.

Carol

Dick,

That is funny - Have you published with lulu.com? I have. I know what it was for me to order at cost and what the ISBN cost and the packages that they offer above and beyond that. It is free to download any project to put up for sale on lulu.com. You can download word files, which cost you nothing to produce. A stock photo, which this cover looks to be, can be purchased for a few dollars. (My illustrator has kept me abreast of these things as I've asked and she's been more than happy to share where you can get stock photos.) As an editor for a magazine and other novels, I know the work that goes into a project. Having had my work accepted in an anthology before, I know for a fact that nothing would have been published without a contract. You are a member of the MWA and PEWA; you know you can't be a member at certain levels on those unless you are a "professional writer" and by their definition, professional means not self-published, and being compensated for your writings.

All I've asked for a justification of where the royalties are to go. Again, we have had no explanation of this nor have we had a contract for this anthology. Every piece of work an author submits and is accepted for publication, should have a contract. That contract should layout all compensation issues and publications issues. I'm not asking for Shelagh to not be compensated but if she is to be paid for a cover that is a stock photo which she adjusted and her work as a contributor to the anthology, then shouldn't the other contributors be compensated as well?

I can name at least 10 friends and family who would purchase a copy because my stories were in the anthology and I'm sure that every contributor could name at least 5 who would do so. So even if the royalties are low, there are royalties being made and if every contributor knows right this moment, there are people willing to purchase the anthology just because one of their stories or poems is in there, then that adds up. You aren't talking just $10 or $20 in royalties, you are talking whatever the price is set by the project coordinator x 48 x their 5-10 buyers - that moves it up into the hundreds and even thousands. My math is not so poor to see that this is robbery and theft. We have not been compensated at all for those stories, we are being asked to purchase proof copies at a price that is set by Shelagh which is after royalties have been added already and then we are asked to purchase more copies at that price and then get all our friends and family to buy copies at another price. Even if half of the 48 people purchased a copy at the $19 or $25 price origially given, that still adds up to monies in the hundreds.

I have no problem acknowledging that Shelagh has done a terrific job in putting things together nor do I have problem agreeing that she should be compensated but I do have a problem with saying it is okay for someone to take my hard work (there is more to the process of writing than just giving a finished draft) and put it in a book and keep all the profits for themselves. You should have the same problem. Obviously you are not seeing the big picture. I'm not the only person who sees this or feels this way and the others who have voiced the same concerns are all professionals, not amateurs. They are all being paid for their work in some form or another.

My two stories have been removed according to Shelagh and that's all well and good. A suggestion or two had been made that the royalties issue be put to a vote as to who to profit - a charity or something - and I'm all for that - but when the contributors don't have a say on anything - then what is the sense in participating? I've only asked that the royalties distribution be justified and I think I've handled this issue rather well. Considering I have asked at least 15 times on this forum and several times in email and still have not received an answer.

I wish you all well as far as the sales of the anthology go and hope that you realize down the road that your stories and poems are being stolen from you because you are not being compensated for them since over time, the royalties will continue to add up. Without a contract, you and every contributor to the anthology are helpless. So all the best to you all. I have a 50-book series to work on as well as my day job. E

Thanks Dick and Carol! Tomorrow will be a better day!

Would anyone mind if I deleted this thread? It has given me a real headache.

Yes I mind - but what do I know - I'm no longer a contributor to the anthology -