Anthology pricing

HOLY CRAP!

Shelagh, I hope there's enough royalties for you to get good and drunk! You've earned it!

Thanks for the hard work!

Take a hike Elysabeth. We've heard enough of your nonsense. Many of us depend on writing for our income but we don't try to get our grubby little fingers on pennies that aren't even there.

Such maturity. For those contributors who have questioned the process and where the royalties are going, this forum was here. The discussion should have happened long before this and if Shelagh (who has admitted to me) didn't know what she was doing, she should have asked for help from others who have worked with lulu.com and how to get it so that contributors don't pay the royalties and could order one copy at cost for proofing.

I've not asked for anything that shouldn't have been discussed in previous forums. An accounting or justification of what Shelagh needs to recoup as her cost and then where the rest of the royalties will be used.

I can't believe no one is willing to come forward with their questions. I know several who have asked the same thing and not gotten an answer. It is only fair to compensate the contributors after the editor recoups whatever they put into the project. I'm not leaving the forum as I have every right to be here as do you all. I'm not wasting my time on this discussion any more. I have said my piece several times and have communicated with Shelagh via email. I've gotten a partial answer but not figures that should be shown to all of us. We contributed stories as did Shelagh. We all should receive a part of the profit after Shelagh gets back what she put into - cost of cover, cost of the distribution package, cost of the ISBN, et cetera.

I've never once said I'm not for compensating her for her work but at the price she sent us and with the understanding that not everyone can afford to order a copy at that price, and even if only half the contributors order a copy, then there are some big bucks already being earned. I don't know why you all want to continue to turn a blind eye on this issue, but that's fine with me. You all don't value your work very much to not question where the extra royalties that will be made are going. You as authors should know never to give your work away for free.

There were two simple solutions - pay the authors a one-time payment for the print rights only to the anthology or speculate how the royalties will be split and let each contributor know that even though it may not be much, this is what the percentage you will receive for your contributions. Justifying Shelagh's cost, there are still large amounts of royalties expected on this project because even if half the contributors promote - they all should have readers to their websites or blogs and most have family and friends who will buy copies just because you are in the anthology. So there will be mega sales - and those royalties are all going to Shelagh - you can all do the math as I have - it doesn't amount to $10 or $20 in royalties; it amounts to well into the hundreds and even thousands.

I can name at least 5, and probably 10 people I know would buy a copy right now if I asked them to - that's 10 sales at $19 retail, which is about $8 royalties earned per copy - that's $80 right there. Wow that's a lot because if each contributor had 10 people they knew would buy - hum - well golly gee, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that - you just multiply those $80 royalties by 48 - and you have just jumped into the thousands. Now someone is making the money and the authors are not benefitting from it. All I've asked for is justification of where the funds are going after Shelagh recoups whatever she needs to for what she put in (which can't be much more than $150 for her cost) - but I don't know anything. I've not worked with lulu.com before; I'm not a published author already and I haven't a clue how royalties work.

The maturity level is really showing by the previous two postings - no wonder no one is questioning where the royalties are going -

Shelagh, I just want to say that I understood what this whole project was all about from the beginning. I willingly and happily submitted my own story knowing that you were the one who signed on to manage this whole project, footing the cost in every aspect. I don't believe that this is the time to make major changes to the anthology. I just received my copies this morning, and it's a beautiful piece of work. I'm very proud to be a part of this project. And I thank you for the idea, the work, and for putting up with the many personalities that you're subjected to in completing such an extensive endeavor. "Forever Friends" - let's not forget what this is all about!

Thanks Helen! Elysabeth thinks I should only be compensated for any costs I've incurred compiling and editing the anthology but that does not include anything for the hours of work I've put in. The going rate of pay for anthology compilers appears to be $0 per hour. Maybe I should have asked Carol to be my employer before I started this project and she could have logged the number of hours I've spent on this.

When you read this Malcolm, as someone who knows a great deal about publishing, would you put an estimate on the number of hours I've spent and give me the going rate for editors?

I continue to trust Shelagh 100% on the verbal contracts and understandings discussed on this forum from day one.

I require no further explanations. The royalty issue is moot: anthologies, even those with big-name writers are very difficult to sell even when they contain well-known and previously published material with which the public is familiar.

Last I heard, Shelagh was having to foot most of the bill for maintaining this forum. If we're all surprised and learn that the anthology is selling like hotcakes, then ALL of that money should compensate Shelagh for her time and/or to pay the freight on this forum.

Shelagh, I bill my editorial time at $35 to $75 per hour depending on the kind of work it is. At those rates, it would take one heck of a lot of royalty money to pay you a fair rate for what you have donated to all of us for free.

Thank you and hang in there while this tempest in a teapot rages on and threatens to ruin the good feelings we have all had for each other. What a shame--fighting over pennies.

Malcolm

Malcolm, I think you'll find the basic cost of the forum is free. I and one or two other members contributed towards the cost of extending the size allowed so that members could upload pictures of their book covers.

I didn't contribute to the anthology, so you can tell me to sling my hook if you like, but I do feel that Elysabeth has a valid point. I have a book on Lulu - I know how much I get paid each time it is sold. I also know that Shelagh has put a great deal of time and effort into producing the anthology.

I made a suggestion earlier that one or two folks agreed with it. I'd like to propose that after Shelagh receives compensation for all the work that she has done on behalf of the contributors, any further profits/royalities from sales go to charity - a charity involved with research into ALS - something which should be close to all of our hearts in view of Rainbow's sudden and crippling illness.

Jenny,

"Sling your hook" is an amusing phrase, whatever it means, but I don't think I'm going to say it!

I have no problem with excess royalties, if any, going to charity. That's a wonderful idea. I do think, though, that all of Shelagh's hours should be compensated first at a standard UK editorial rate for the kind of work done.

When I mentioned potential (though unlikely) royalties months ago and suggested that they pay for any forum related costs and/or for compensating Shelagh, those messages were not hidden from all the contributors who are asking royalty questions now.

That is to say, ideas could have been brought up then as alternatives then rather than waiting until after the book is already in print. That also would have been the time, for those not satisfied with what appeared to be a consensus here, to say they felt more comfortable with a written contract


Malcolm

I never saw the messages you posted previously and I'm all for your suggestions, Malcolm. Too bad that all the contributors have not seen or posted on the forums. I agree this should have been dealt with months ago before the book actually went to print. I have no problem with compensating Shelagh but she isn't the only one who has put time into the anthology - every contributor put in time too. If the contributors would do a poll and vote on where the royalties go, I'm all for that. But apparently we don't get notificatios when new updates are made to anything concerning the anthology. I only found this forum yesterday after being notified that the anthology was available to contributors to proof so it could go live and at the price of $25 and some change. That is when I started questioning things, and stumbled upon this forum.

Now on to another bit of information - anyone who has just recently sent me a private message, I didn't receive it. I received notification that I had a message but when I came to my inbox, there were no new messages there. If you would like to contact me, please send to my regular email address - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so I can get the messages. Apparently my privates are being blocked - E

If you recall early comments concerning the anthology, this situation was anticipated, and I was criticized for "trying to help."

I'm not going to take any sides but only express an opinion. I believe that every contributor to the Anthology spent time in writing their story. Without the stories there would be no Anthology.
Secondly, a clear question should get a clear answer. Ignoring questions only creates unwarranted suspicion.
The questions asked certainly placed questions in my own mind.
My position: I agreed to include a story and I did. I wasn't promised any remuneration and therefore have no claim to any.

As I stated in an earlier post, which has since disappeared, I’m not a contributor, but this is a lesson for all of us for future efforts.

I keep hearing about Shelagh’s hard work. Yes, as a freelance editor, it is hard work to edit and organize, to constantly think about what is needed for a passage, a paragraph, a page, to be better. And the anthology probably wouldn’t have become a reality if Shelagh hadn’t suggested it and was the controller. However, if the contributors hadn’t used their skills to write the stories, the idea of an anthology would be just that—an idea. As I stated before, it was a team effort, and all choices should have been discussed with the contributors.

I think the anger and frustration comes from questions that have been unanswered on this thread. Of course everything should have been stated in the beginning, contract or not. But that wasn’t done. The only ones who asked questions before the final edits were slammed by everyone else and humiliated for asking. But again, as is now the case with others, those questions went unanswered. That’s not good.

Let this be a lesson to all of us. To those of you who are only interested in having your name included in a book, anything decided, such as who pays what, and what happens to the royalties, etc, is immaterial. But some are very interested in the answers to the questions and those questions should be addressed. I don’t understand the problem. The cover was discussed with a vote, why couldn’t other matters be as well? I’m sure most here would’ve gone along with what Shelagh wanted, but to ignore questions asked causes mistrust and is unprofessional.

No anthology. Sounds good to me.

List of things done on the anthology:

First story received: 21st May 2008.
Last story received: September 5th.

Number of stories accepted for inclusion: 33

Number of poems accepted: 28

Total number of work edited: 61

Number of drafts sent out in word documnets: 100+
Number of pdf files created: 100+

Number of emails sent out: 700+ (an average of 15 per contributor)
Number received: 700+

Time spent on collecting and checking web addresses and compiling contents page: in excess of 40 hours.

Time spent on front cover suggestions and final cover: In access of 80 hours.

Time spent on writing foreword and back cover blurb: 5 hours.

Time spent on layout which involved innumerable changes as the poems and stories arrived randomly and changed the order and layout of the book weekly. Estimated hours: well over 100 hours.

Time spent on the forum giving feedback, responding to questions and providing updates: at least 10 hours.

During this time I wrote a poem and a short story for the anthology. Estimated tiem: a week's work --- quite small compared to the four months spent on the anthology.

Oh, I forgot to mention the time spent on editing: incalculable.

As I said: I keep hearing about all the work you did. Where are the
kudos and thanks to the contributors? Even a major publisher who does
all the work you did and more compensates the writers. If royalties
weren't offered or expected, they still deserve some compensation even
if it was only the opportunity to buy their copies at a reduced rate.

Even as someone who didn't contribute, I wonder why Sue had to pay $29. She asked you, you haven't answered.

Others have asked legitimate questions, and they're still unanswered.

I've just received some excellent advice, "Say goodbye and leave them to it."

Goodbye.

At 12:15 pm today Abe said:

Quote :

I'm not going to take any sides but only express
an opinion. I believe that every contributor to the Anthology spent
time in writing their story. Without the stories there would be no
Anthology.

Secondly, a clear question should get a clear answer. Ignoring questions only creates unwarranted suspicion.

The questions asked certainly placed questions in my own mind.

My position: I agreed to include a story and I did. I wasn't promised any remuneration and therefore have no claim to any.

I agree. I didn't expect money. I just wanted to be in the Anthology. I wasn't happy with having to pay what the public was to pay on the book (over $25.00 US currency plus shipping which came to over $29.00). I still wouldn't have said anything. I would have just purchased that one book and not the others I was planning to purchase for gifts. Then AFTER we purchased our books the price was lowered for us. That made no sense. Still I didn't speak up. There were other things that bothered me but again I didn't say anything because I didn't want to rock the boat.

BUT when a direct question is asked many times and not answered, that is not only rude but poor business ethics.

Shelagh, if you had just answered the direct question without getting defensive there wouldn't be 5 pages to this thread. I am sorry this all happened, but I believe it has been a lesson for all of us. Different lessons, but lessons just the same.

I don't blame you for saying goodbye, Shelagh, but I hope you change your mind. Most of the people on this board are appreciative of the tremendous amount of work you have done. Don't let a few ingrates get you down.
Have the ingrates considered that they retain the rights to their stories and will be free to sell them elsewhere if anyone is interested in buying them? This anthology from the beginning was meant to provide a little publicity to the forum and give people a chance to showcase their work. As a money maker it stood no chance.
I have had stories in a number of anthologies brought out by major organizations and others by major publishers. Some were stories being reprinted, others original stories written for the anthology. All of those had a built-in audience guaranteeing monetary success. Not once have I received a contract for any of them. I did receive an upfront payment -always a small one - because the books and tapes had the above mentioned guarantee of monetary success. People who expect money from a project such as this are naive in the extreme.

I contributed a story. No one said I would be compensated. No one said I had to buy a book. Sheila edited my stories, put the anthology together, spent hours. I expected any profits would be used to compensate her for all her time spent.

After all those royalties come in, and Sheila is fairly compensated, I vote we donate them to ALS in honor of Rainbow.

As far as I am concerned, that is sufficient.

Carol

A Ahad wrote:

Jenny wrote:

Why not take the royalties/profit from the sale of the anthology and donate it to charity? Perhaps one for ALS or indeed a cancer charity. That way no individual benefits from the profits, but rather, the money goes to a good cause.

Those of us who didn't write anything for inclusion in the anthology could make a donation. I certainly would be happy to do so.

Ahad

I like Jenny's proposal. I think it should be given serious consideration by all contributors. I do see a slight issue with it, however, in that it will not credit Shelagh for the disproportionately greater effort that she has invested in terms of her personal free time and effort that she has put into the publication. Wheras some contributors could get away (myself included) with a 'happy go lucky' kind of attitude and give all royalties to charity...the same could not be said for Shelagh (and perhaps also to a degree Zada Connaway), who've borne the brunt of all the hard work behind this book.

Something to think about.

Jenny, I responded to your earlier post, and so did several others in agreement with your idea. It was a good one, and I believe Shelagh also agreed.

Ahad, I have not borne any brunt here, just contributed like the rest.

Shelagh, please don't leave. For some reason, I thought from the beginning that this would not be a money making effort. I was not promised nor do I ask for any compensation. I guess, since I am so obscure, it is just a privelege to be included.

I've never said I was ungrateful nor have I ever denied that Shelagh has worked hard to put this anthology together. I would like to point out Shelagh sent an original message saying that we should order a copy at the price of $25 and some change to proof it. Then she says she is reducing the price so the contributors can order a copy to proof. Then it is stated either on the forum or in an email that over half the contributors already ordered a copy at proof. Guess what folks - even at half of the contributors ordering a copy at the $19 price - she just made almost $250 in royalties - now my reasoning mind tells me that you all just paid her to have your stories published. That's not even figuring how many of you ordered at the $25 price - that is more royalties she earned from you all. Hello - where is the reason in that.

All I've stated all along is that we were told in another posting that we authors would be able to order copies at cost and we would be able to sell them however we wanted.

All well and good. I feel that we should have had the opportunity originally to order at cost, proof, and then the books go to the price the public would pay. So my question remains - if every contributor orders at least one copy at either the $19 or the $25 price - just one copy each - there are 48 contributors, at the $25 public price - royalties are almost $15 a copy because the at cost was only $10 and some change. So I have a problem with buying a copy at public price and giving all those funds to one person. $15 x 48 copies sold = $720 in royalties. Now if we all have even one friend who is going to order a copy at the $25 price - now she has double royalties - $1440 - that's a payment of $30 per contributor.

I'm all for compensating Shelagh - but not the whole royalty amount. It has been suggested several times by a couple of people to donate the royalties to charity - but yet Shelagh has not and will not agree to that. Thus, she keeps saying that the royalties are not that much - but just do the simple math. That is just from each contributor buying one copy and each of them having one friend buying a copy at the "public price" of $25 - Who is benefitting from this?

All I've asked for is a showing, an accounting of where the royalties will go after the anthology goes live. Not being an ingrate, as you so put it, Dick. So get over yourselves if you can't see the reality of this situation. I wouldn't care about this if we had been able to order copies at cost like promised and been able to sell them as we saw fit, at whatever cost we wanted. I wouldn't have even cared if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes - that Shelagh is making money on this at the expense of us. Every author should know (all of you having been published or having dealt with the process in some way or other - I don't think there are any authors who contributed who have not been published or who don't have an idea of the process) you always want the money to flow to the author not from the author. We all should be compensated for our work and whether we decide to not take the abundant amount of royalties and contribute them to charity or divide them among the contributors should be discussed and voted on - just like the cover was.

That is only 96 copies and already the profit margin nears $750 for Shelagh. This, of course, would probably be a lot more because as I've stated before - I'm sure every contributor knows at least 5 people right off the top of their heads who would absolutely positively purchase a copy of the anthology just because you asked them to or because they want to have something that you wrote in the book and have you sign it - it's called bragging rights - (I know a real author - look at me, I've got an author's signature - people (friends and family) do it all the time).

Unless someone can show me that the actual royalties are not set by Shelagh and that she has the price set at this so the royalties can be the best they can, and someone can prove to me that Shelagh isn't getting all the royalties, then my argument stands.

The only person benefitting, even after being compensated from the first few sales - is Shelagh. I agree that the royalties above and beyond a certain number should go to a charity. No one wants to put this to a poll. I think that you all have put some major blinders on and aren't seeing the big picture.

Everyone is welcome to create an account with lulu.com. Downloading files on lulu is free, formatting is done automatically - when you download, the system converts to the file necessary to get your work published. Even before you go to load your project, scroll down on the left hand side and hit price calculator or whatever it is called - it pulls a drop down box. You select the size and binding of the book from the menu and then you put in the number of pages and hit calculate cost - that is what you as the creator of the project would pay to have copies sent to you - that is your at cost price plus shipping -

When I put in the calculator - and I did it both as pounds (UK) and dollars (US), the calculated price to have a 300-page, trade paperback, b/w, 6 x 9, perfect bound book came out to $10.43 (6.40 pounds). That means at $19 to sale for us - that is over $8 profit on Shelagh's part, and on the $25 and some change - at least $15. Now half of you have ordered books at both prices, so that means the profit is already there. Shelagh can go in her account for the anthology and see exactly how many books sold at the $19 price and how many at the $25 price and she will see exactly how much she has earned from those sales.

So my question still remains - after you compensate Shelagh a reasonable amount for her time and costs (considering she volunteered to do this, which means she shouldn't be asking for compensation on her time) - the first 20 sales - either $160 or $300 at the higher price - then where do the rest of the royalties go? Can this be answered? Who will benefit from the royalties above and beyond what you decide to compensate Shelagh? So far, there have been no answers to this - suggestions made to contribute to charities but no one is supporting the suggestion (about three people out of 48 contributors).

So, Dick, Malcolm and whoever else keeps thinking I'm being an ingrate and unappreciative, please tell me where you think the royalties should go. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that with this many contributors and friends and family and readers of websites to know that there are going to be more than 100 sales in the first few weeks the anthology goes on sale. Those royalties are all going to Shelagh. (Just in the sample above - I've just shown you all that over $700 would go to Shelagh, which I think is really above and beyond what she should be compensated since she volunteered to do this and that she should be compensated for whatever actual costs she incurred).

I've shown this exact sample several times. I've stated the same thing at least a dozen times now. I don't dispute the fact that whatever costs Shelagh incurred, she should get those back but there is a limit at what she actually incurred. So I'll keep asking until I get an answer and if that is never, the question will still remain - who will benefit from the royalties that are above and beyond compensating Shelagh for her costs?

It's always been clear to me that we were not going to be paid for our contribution and that we'd buy the books to sell, and I was there from the beginning.

I talked with Rainbow tonight and told him that there was talk on the boards about donating some of the profits from the sale of Forever Friends to finding a cure for ALS. He sounded good tonight. Better than usual. He was honored that anyone would even think of that.

Good point Helen - We would buy the books to sell (and sorry that I can't find that original posting- maybe it was in an email). I have no problem with contributing the profits to finding a cure for anything. But as it stands, Shelagh hasn't agreed to it - all she has said over and over is that she isn't making much profit and has never once voiced an agreement to above and beyond being compensated for her costs incurred to donate the royalties to a worthwhile charity. It's been asked over and over again. I really hope you all open your eyes and see that until she agrees to do this, all the royalties will be in her pocket. And if all the contributors are buying one copy just for themselves, you have just paid to be published.

I don't know who Rainbow is, and I'm sorry to hear that he has been stricken with this disease. I wish him a recovery if that is possible, or to go into remission. I think there have been four people who have agreed that the royalties above and beyond compensating should go to ALS research or some other charity. Please let him know that my family's prayers are with him and his family. E

As I have done from the beginning, I go with whatever the majority decides. So far sounds good to me on the charity.

For those of us who were involved in this from the beginning, and have come to know one another through our chatting here, I think that we got into this project willingly and without contract, and in fact with great enthusiasm about something that collectively was bigger than any of us are as individuals. And it's about FRIENDSHIP for crying out loud!

We are all adults here, so it seems silly to remind folks that the intent of the book was that it was being without contract (like a handshake deal of old, only in a virtual sense), and those of us who submitted something but also wanted to have input would have been wise to do so BEFORE the project was completed, and even before you submitted anything.
If Shelagh makes a few dollars (or a whole bunch) then I personally will say "Yahoo -- I'm in a book and it is successful!" If Shelagh wants to donate some of the royalties to charity or to upgrade the forum, that's her call, not mine.

Shelagh, I hope that you can restore the book and cover to what we had previously set up. I'm proud of this project and to have been part of it. I hope it does not come unravelled.
I'm glad I ordered mine and they have already shipped, and I hate to see this coming apart.

I heartily agree, Pam!

The figure of a $15 royalty on a book selling for $25 as posted by Elysabeth is preposterous. This book was intended to sell on Amazon, B&N, etc. Booksellers don't consider anything less than a 40% discount. The big boys want 55%, sometimes more. A serious examination of how the publishing business works is needed before outlandish claims are made.

Shelagh, you should shut down this thread. Most of us have more important things to do than devote our time to this sort of nonsense.