Interesting Link

I found an interesting link this morning on the JCF's Conversations of a Higher Order:

Quote :

My courses in European history proved, as we passed through the
Crusades, enjoyed other spirited contests like the Protestant
Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, that religion kills,
especially when its wars are waged in the name of the Prince of Peace.
Also, to be sure, there is the fact that all religions are based on
simple myth, on stories that tell of the birth of the universe, the sun
and the stars, land, water, animals, birds, greenery. If you read Carl
Gustav Jung and Joseph Campbell, you find that really there is just one
set of myths worldwide and that differences in religious belief are
simply regional variations on those myths. So it seems obvious to me
that much waste, buffoonery and murder has been visited upon the world
in the belief that one variation on the myth is somehow the only
variation...the One True Faith, The Word of God.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/tclarke/detail?entry_id=88592#ixzz1MnziVmRF

Ann

cc

What is your purpose? Are those of you who don’t believe waging war
against a God you believe is a fairy tale? To me, that is the panicle
of stupidity.
Follow your theism in peace.

God is not a fairy tale. A myth is not a lie. The people who are waging war are the ones who believe their perception of God is the only valid one. My purpose is the find a way to end the wars that are being fought in the name of God, so that we can all live in peace.

Ann.

Ann, I agree with you. Religious wars are still being fought today with the pen and not the sword, although the sword is still being used in some countries.
People tend to resist any concept that differs from their set/fixed ideas/beliefs. It is often "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with a truth."
The Bible has and continues to be the basis for religious beliefs. The study of the Bible creates doubt about authenticity and that is a no, no. It is supposed to be the infallible word of God. They refuse to accept that man wrote it. Man is the culprit - not God. Questioning is a big part of learning.

Discussions about religion is on par with discussions about politics. If one is open to learning, then preconceived notions must be placed aside. Usually it boils down to trying to convince the other person that their brand of religion or their concept is the right one. I don't think anyone has a handle of absolute truth, especially when it comes to religion. Belief is a personal matter. We tend to side with those who think much as we do. Often we have read the similar material and have a common understanding and therefore agree.
Rocking the religious boat makes waves. Making waves is what a boat does when it is moving. If one is content with stagnation, that's fine. If one wants a greater understanding, an open mind helps. Answers seldom come without asking questions. People seek answers.

Where did I come from?
Why am I here?
Where will I go when I die?
What is my purpose in life?
Etc.

And our mythology, Abe, grows from our attempt to answer those questions, and the amazing thing is that we all come up with the same answers. They may be worded a little differently, told from a different perspective, sometimes using different metaphors - although there is often a surprising agreement there. Many of the metaphors are actually universal symbols that spring from the mystery of our being - Jung's "collective unconscious."

This morning's widget message:

Quote :

We
are all born as animals and live the life that animals live: we sleep, eat,
reproduce, and fight. There is, however, another order of living, which the
animals do not know, that of awe before the mystery of being, the 'mysterium
tremendum et fascinans,' that can be the root and branch of the spiritual sense
of one’s days. That is the birth – the Virgin Birth – in the heart of a
properly human, spiritual life.


Thou
Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor
Joseph Campbell

How can one experience the mystery if one literalizes the symbols of the myth?

How do we get so hung up one the "My God is better than your God" idea when they are all the same God?

Was it Eric Berne who said that the basis of most of the games we play to one-up each other was that old phrase, "My dad can beat up your dad"?

Ann

cc

Domenic,
I respect your right to believe as you do, and I trust it gives you much comfort. By the same token, my beliefs are mine. I share many of the ideas/concepts that Ann has presented over the course of years. That doesn't mean we agree on everything, what it does mean is that we are still seeking and learning.
A big bang or a little bang. Doesn't matter. I think there is a Universal intelligence that controls things. You may call it God or Sam. Doesn't matter. Sometimes things happen by accident, however I find it hard to believe that a human being or a universe could so perfectly be formed by accident. So do I believe in God? If God is the best word to describe my feelings, then God it is.
I think I'm a bit like George Carlin. If I could find something to worship that gives me all the things I need to survive, I would choose the sun. Perhaps the native Americans had it right. And as George said, "I can see the sun. Helps with credibility."

I don't believe in a God of hate or someone who would condemn his children to a place of torment for all eternity. A God of love couldn't do that nor could I love a God that would do that.

These are just my thoughts and opinions and I'm satisfied with them.

I've often used the old elephant and wise blind men thing as an analogy here, but I recently came across a new one. I would credit the source if I could remember it.
Let's see if I can put something of it together here.

In the old analogy, the elephant represented absolute reality. The blind men represented the limited reality of each of us as human beings.

In this new metaphor, absolute reality is represented as a mosaic. The individual tiles each representing a limited human perspective. But - and this is the new bit - the completed picture isn't the Reality. It is only a representation. The Reality is the glue that holds the pieces in place.Each of us holds a little bit of that reality. The mosaic is too big and complex for us to ever get the whole of it, and if we did, it still wouldn't be the glue, or perhaps the creator, of the picture - the force holding it all together.

But once we can come to see that our perception is just a small part - a valid part, but a part nonetheless, and that our neighbors and even our enemies hold other pieces of the puzzle (or mosaic) then we will be far more willing to work together towards building a more complete whole.

Just me.

Ann.

Abe F. March wrote:

Domenic,
I respect your right to believe as you do, and I trust it gives you much comfort. By the same token, my beliefs are mine. I share many of the ideas/concepts that Ann has presented over the course of years. That doesn't mean we agree on everything, what it does mean is that we are still seeking and learning.
A big bang or a little bang. Doesn't matter. I think there is a Universal intelligence that controls things. You may call it God or Sam. Doesn't matter. Sometimes things happen by accident, however I find it hard to believe that a human being or a universe could so perfectly be formed by accident. So do I believe in God? If God is the best word to describe my feelings, then God it is.
I think I'm a bit like George Carlin. If I could find something to worship that gives me all the things I need to survive, I would choose the sun. Perhaps the native Americans had it right. And as George said, "I can see the sun. Helps with credibility."

I don't believe in a God of hate or someone who would condemn his children to a place of torment for all eternity. A God of love couldn't do that nor could I love a God that would do that.

These are just my thoughts and opinions and I'm satisfied with them.

Abe, I don't believe God puts anyone into a Hell of fire either. Matter of fact, This forever death in a lake of fire comes from Revelation 20:14 It says, "This means the second death." Cast into the lake of fire means, "You will die, and not be brought back to life."
I stated, man has changed much of the bible, but if you read the scrolls, you can see what it said before it was changed.
The part about calling God whatever we want...he says, "Any one holding back my name, will receive all the plagues of the scrolls."
Abe, what if everyone called you by a different name? I called you Bill, and someone else called you Bobby, etc. How would anyone know who we were talking about? God is not a name, it is a title.
If anyone is believing in God for what they can get, they don't understand Who God is, why he gave humans life, and why he has the right to take life whenever he want's to.

Quote :

...man has changed much of the bible, but if you read the scrolls, you can see what it said before it was changed.

The scrolls? You have access to the original scrolls? How intriguing. What language are they written in? Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Who wrote them? How have they been documented?

This is fascinating news, Dom. How did you come across these scrolls?

Ann

alj wrote:

Quote :

...man has changed much of the bible, but if you read the scrolls, you can see what it said before it was changed.

The scrolls? You have access to the original scrolls? How intriguing. What language are they written in? Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Who wrote them? How have they been documented?

This is fascinating news, Dom. How did you come across these scrolls?

Ann

Anyone can buy a copy written in ENGLISH for $75. You poke a finger at anything to do with the bible. You don’t like it when others don’t think your way. You look down your nose at everyone. You are a bully...you defend a belief that is un-provable by attacking other beliefs. Your knowledge of the bible, from what you have written, is 180 degrees from what is written in that book.
Believe whatever you want. I don’t give a damn Scarlet. If your going to down grade The Bible, at least get your facts straight on what it says, and does not say.
Your little smart ass comments to what I post are weak. If you want to tell someone to kiss your ass, just say it, don't smart ass your remarks around your elbow to get to your thumb.

[quote="Domenic Pappalardo"]

alj wrote:

Quote :

...man has changed much of the bible, but if you read the scrolls, you can see what it said before it was changed.

The scrolls? You have access to the original scrolls? How intriguing. What language are they written in? Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Who wrote them? How have they been documented?

This is fascinating news, Dom. How did you come across these scrolls?

Ann

Quote :

Anyone can buy a copy written in ENGLISH for $75. You poke a finger at anything to do with the bible. You don’t like it when others don’t think your way. You look down your nose at everyone. You are a bully...you defend a belief that is un-provable by attacking other beliefs. Your knowledge of the bible, from what you have written, is 180 degrees from what is written in that book.

A copy written in English is a translation. any translation has to involve interpretation. What is the English translation based on? Which version of the Bible? The Septuagint? The Vulgate? The Masoretic Text? Are you referring to a specific Jewish or Christian canon? Is the Apocrypha included? It might help if you gave the actual title of this volume, so we would know which book you are referring to as "that book.". The Bible as we know it today took a long time to develop. Many of the books or scrolls that circulated in the early days were not included. Are you referring to any or all of these?

Quote :

Believe whatever you want. I don’t give a damn Scarlet. If your going to down grade The Bible, at least get your facts straight on what it says, and does not say.
Your little smart ass comments to what I post are weak. If you want to tell someone to kiss your ass, just say it, don't smart ass your remarks around your elbow to get to your thumb.

No comment on this part. I'm including it to circumvent your tendency to "cc" your posts.

Ann

Alj, you can not be reasoned with. You try to come across as a learned person…as to the Bible, and the scrolls, you are blind.
Your high ended nastiness only shows you do believe yourself smarter than others. You are in error. When it comes to Gods written word, you know nothing.
Do what you want, believe what you want…and lets see if God will conform to your thinking.
I will not waste my time replying to you again.

Stick this in your cc where the sun don't shine.

If anyone is interested in how the tenets and dogma of the Christian Church developed over time, the following study by Paul Tillich, The History of Christian Thought, gives one explanation:

http://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=2310

Tillich's perspective, BTW, is Lutheran.

Ann

If anyone is interested in a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, here is one for only $23.99



The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English, by Martin G. Abegg, Jr ... On Sale: 10/22/2002
www.harpercollins.com/books/Dead-Sea-Scrolls-Bible/?isbn=... - Cached

You are a sick little person. Your copying everthing I write shows you are nothing but a little internet bully.

Quote :

The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of 972 texts from the Hebrew Bible and other extra Biblical documents found between 1947 and 1956 at Khirbet Qumran on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea from which it derives its name.
The texts are of great mythic and historical significance, as they
include the oldest known surviving copies and extra-biblical documents
and preserve evidence of great diversity in late Second Temple Judaism. They are written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, mostly on parchment, but with some written on papyrus.^[1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE and 70 CE.^[2]
The Dead Sea Scrolls are traditionally divided into three groups: "Biblical" manuscripts (copies of texts from the Hebrew Bible), which comprise roughly 40% of the identified scrolls; "Apocryphal" or "Pseudepigraphical" manuscripts (known documents from the Second Temple Period like Enoch, Jubilees, Tobit, Sirach, non-canonical psalms, etc., that were not ultimately canonized in the Hebrew Bible) which comprise roughly 30% of the identified scrolls; and "Sectarian" manuscripts (previously unknown documents that speak to the rules and beliefs of a particular group or groups within greater Judaism) like the Community Rule, War Scroll, Pesher on Habakkuk (Hebrew pesher פשר = "Commentary"), and the Rule of the Blessing, which comprise roughly 30% of the identified scrolls.^[5]
The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther,
provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that
available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical
manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew
text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and
Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language
and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran
biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the
once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text
from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around 100 CE.^[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

Quote :

The Nag Hammadi library ^[1] is a collection of early Christian Gnostic texts discovered near the Upper Egyptian town of Nag Hammadi in 1945. That year, twelve leather-bound papyrus codices buried in a sealed jar were found by a local peasant named Mohammed Ali Samman.^[2][3] The writings in these codices comprised fifty-two mostly Gnostic treatises, but they also include three works belonging to the Corpus Hermeticum and a partial translation/alteration of Plato's Republic. In his "Introduction" to The Nag Hammadi Library in English, James Robinson suggests that these codices may have belonged to a nearby Pachomian monastery, and were buried after Bishop Athanasius condemned the uncritical use of non-canonical books in his Festal Letter of 367 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library

Ann

All very interesting and as a man that has studied, taught and continues to learn of the spiritual word of God, I feel that many proclaim to know, but the truth in their knowing is shown in their wisdom to answer what they Do know and to be willing to learn what they do NOT know. I am scholared in the numbers and colors and the tabernacle and yet, daily, God shows me something new. You are never, ever so learned that you can not be shown more. That is the beauty of God's word.
Sometimes, in the battle of believers VS the non-believers, and as I said, it is a time and spiritual lessen, the fewest of words say the most. We can not save the world. Those that can be deceieved, will be deceived. God allows Satan to do what he does to measure where we are in our walks of faith.
I will simply state this for those that don't believe.

"I would rather spend my entire life, believing that God does exist and find out he doesn't, than spend my life trying to prove he doesn't exist, and find out when I die...that he DOES!"

Everybody who has posted here believes God exists.

Ann

Many believe in a God. Some think we all believe in the same God. Some think everything is God…even trees. I have a good friend who believes in God, he is Muslim. He said to me, “Domenic, we believe in the same God. There is only one.”
“No,” I replied, “we do not believe in the same God.”
“There is only one,” he smiled.
“My God has a son,” I said. "Your God does not.”