Arizona targets illegals again

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/22/arizona-senate-panel-passes-birthright-citizen-law/#ixzz1EmYLh0eI

And birthright citizenship. Wonder if it will really get to the Supreme Court?

2/26/2011


What do you think ?


Cheers..Joe

Depends how many left-wingers Obama is able to pack on the Court before the issue gets there.

The 14th Amendment and the laws upholding it have been held up by the courts over the years. Even a conservative court can't over turn birth right citizenship.

But they can dream.

There have been some really good pieces about this in the WSJ lately by legal scholars and historians. One said that the author of the 14th amendment never intended birthright to apply to children of illegal immigrants. He said that one interpretation of the amendment is that they are subject to our laws and protections (e.g., they can't break our laws and cannot be attacked by local citizens) but not, say, to a draft into our military or citizenship. It was a long piece -if I can find it, I'll scan it.

Also, my understanding is that the 14th amendment as it applies to children of illegal immigrants has never been tested in the courts, and that's what this bill is supposed to try to do.

You may be correct on that. And if so, I guess we'll see.
I still think any court overturning birthright citizenship is a long shot.

But I'd like to see that article, if you can find it.

LC wrote:

One said that the author of the 14th amendment never intended birthright to apply to children of illegal immigrants.

That's a specious argument. It would be more meaningful to consider what the framers of the 14th Amendment intended rather than what they did not intend, which was to overturn the denial of citizenship to newly freed slaves and their offspring. Dred Scott, for example.

But it was not specifically so worded. The Amendment covers all persons born in the USA, irrespective of how their forebears got here. It would be interesting to see how the Supreme Court treated this issue, but I don't think they will be faced with it. The only sure-fire way to deny citizenship to anyone born here is with a Constitutional Amendment to repeal the 14th. I don't see that happening.

2/26/2011


The amendment from what I read was written right after
the civil war to give slaves and their descendants the
legal right to be citizens of the USA, why are people
twisting this law around ? The democrats will take
advantage and twist which ever way they can, I hope
the Supreme Court straightens this out for once in all.


Cheers..Joe

If a person born in the USA was not deemed a citizen because his forefathers were not, and the entire family clan were deported, there wouldn't be many people remaining in our country.

The right of citizenship has often been tested with travelers. If a pregnant women, from whatever country of origin, lands in the USA and gives birth, the child is automatically an American citizen. The child is also entitled to citizenship of the mother's country. When the child becomes of age, he/she must decide what country they wish to have citizenship, since the USA does not allow dual citizenship. That statement is not entirely true. I've learned that there are exceptions.
When someone wishes to become a Naturalized American citizen, they must swear allegiance to the USA and give up the citizenship of their former country. That was the rule. I don't know if that still applies in all cases.

Quote :

If a person born in the USA was not deemed a citizen because his forefathers were not, and the entire family clan were deported, there wouldn't be many people remaining in our country.

What is the relevance? I presume the forefathers you speak of were legal citizens by the laws (or lack of them) of that time.

This sounds like the "we're a nation of immigrants" argument. Yes, and? So the borders should get thrown wide open regardless of how many want to enter, their criminal backgrounds, skills, health, etc.?

If the framers of the 14th had intended it to apply only to slaves and their offspring, they would have written it that way, in which case the Amendment would have been obsolete as soon as the last of those offspring died. Constitutional law doesn't work that way, and the framers had the foresight to understand that.

The relevance is that the issue is not an easy one. Someone will challenge the rule and/or find a loophole to set a precedent.

Yes, we are a nation of immigrants, except for the native American.
No, I don't think the borders should be opened for everyone. I think it is far too lenient as they are discovering in Europe with the wave of economic seekers.
Motive is an important question. What can they offer? Do we need their skills? Will they integrate? Will they become a burden on society?

I think there needs to be a list of requirements for citizenship.
At the top of that list would be Language. Until they can pass a language test they would be placed on probation, or given a temporary residence permit. During that temporary period they would be required to study American history and the laws of the land, especially those of the State where they intend to settle.

By that argument, LC, should we not deport all criminals, unskilled laborers, and sick ones, regardless of their birthrights?

Maybe we should take down the statue of liberty.

Quote :

The New Colossus

By Emma Lazarus, 1883

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

http://www.statueliberty.net/statue-of-liberty-poem.html

Quote :

...the Mother of Exiles is more welcoming than conquering. She welcomes all castaways,
misfits and homeless types dreaming of freedom.

Ann

Quote :

By that argument, LC, should we not deport all criminals, unskilled laborers, and sick ones, regardless of their birthrights?

How do you get that?

And quoting the Lazarus poem is exactly what the people who say, "We're all immigrants!" do. Again -and? Why do you think open borders works better than screening new immigrants for criminal background, skills and health?

LC wrote:

Why do you think open borders works better than screening new immigrants for criminal background, skills and health?

We no longer have resources to do either.

Al Stevens wrote:

If the framers of the 14th had intended it to apply only to slaves and their offspring, they would have written it that way, in which case the Amendment would have been obsolete as soon as the last of those offspring died. Constitutional law doesn't work that way, and the framers had the foresight to understand that.

Well, other amendments were overturned when they were deemed obsolete. I don't see what makes this one more special.

Quote :

We no longer have resources to do either.

If we have the resources to provide illegals with public housing, medical care, foodstamps and education, we have the resources to screen them.

LC wrote:

Well, other amendments were overturned when they were deemed obsolete.

No, not "other amendments." Only one. And not because it was deemed obsolete, which implies that it had been valid, but because it was deemed wrong from the git-go.

LC wrote:

I don't see what makes this one more special.

The process for amending the Constitution makes it extremely difficult to accomplish. Civics 101. And I don't think it can attract sufficient support. That's what makes the 14th "more special" than the 18th. The people overwhelmingly wanted the 18th repealed.

LC wrote:

If we have the resources to provide illegals with public housing, medical care, foodstamps and education, we have the resources to screen them.

And, if we do not have the resources to provide illegals with public housing, medical care, foodstamps and education, we do not have the resources to screen them. Thank you for agreeing with me.

The 14th amendment states plainly anyone born in the United States is a citizen of the United States. I don't see how one could get around that. Seems plain to me. Arizona is wasting it's time.

Congress could modify that but that'd take an amendment.

Well, we'll see, won't we? Should be interesting. I personally don't see it happening, either.

2/27/2011

I do believe if you want to live in this country you have to
do it correctly, first get in line like everyone else, second
learn the language, when my great grand parents came here
in the 1880's there were no schools to learn the language, they
had to fend for themselves, there were no govt. hand outs. Other
countries have very strict laws , ours should be enforced, if I went
to Canada to live yes I could live there but not work there nor get
any benefits....


Cheers..Joe

This discussion is old. The jobs are gone. The Mexicans are no longer arriving. Give it a break. All our immigrant ancestors did not come in the "right" way. Some jumped ship. Some came over the borders. Some came in slave ships. Some came indentured. Half the elite in Washington, D.C. had illegal immigrant help in their homes as servants and nannies. The list goes on. Ever heard of the "straw man" in a debate? It's the debate thread that has no merit. This one has no merit. Give it up. We are in an economic slump. The American Dream "ain't" happenin' for those who come here now. They will stay home. We can wallow in our own economic slump without the benefit of the energy and youth that immigrants bring to a new country. The rest of the world is young; the people in the U.S. are old. Think about that for awhile.

Quote :

The American Dream "ain't" happenin' for those who come here now. They
will stay home. We can wallow in our own economic slump without the
benefit of the energy and youth that immigrants bring to a new country.
The rest of the world is young; the people in the U.S. are old. Think
about that for awhile.

Well put, DK. It's close to what I was going to say, but more succinct and effective.

Ann

2/27/2011


I have news for you, Europeans don't even want to
immigrate here anymore because they have it better
in their own countries, unlike my ancestors and yours
who came from poverty and were looking for a better
life, I think this country better shape up and get rid of
the politicians who are no good liers who will do anything
to get elected, it's time to vote out all the oldies but
goldies who don't even know what century their in....


Cheers..Joe

I repeat - being active in the political process by seeking out the best candidates and working to support them is the only way to make change.