I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...

Shelagh,

joefrank wrote:

7/3
        I look at it this way I have been in retail for over 30 years, if I had a Bake
        shop and two gay men or two gay women came in and wanted a wedding
        cake of course I would say " YES !,"  why because in retail you keep your 
        personal views out of business, doesn't belong there, I even was taught
        this in big retail, If you say yes you gain $200- if you say no which is so
        stupid you loose $200- , so you loose I would make it that's the difference
        between me and someone who's being ignorant...Just Me !

                                                       Cheers....Joe

Joe, I agree.

Most of the gay people I know and knew live as quietly as I do.  Fortunately for them they have spokespeople who are willing to be heard to get the freedoms they seek.  When those who are not of that persuasion get over their paranoia of somethings they do not understand and cool down themselves, that will be a positive contribution also.  It takes two sides quarreling to be divisive.

This doesn't feel like a period of enlightenment for certain.  It just feels like people have been given the right to live as they believe people should live.  Now, it's time for the rest of us to leave them be and keep our religious intolerance and fears of what we do not understand to ourselves. 

It reminds me of the young man who brings home his potential bride to the horror of his parents who will disown him if he marries her she is so contrary to their choice for their son.  Of course that sends them straight to the alter.

The more we protest, the more people of a different persuasion feel the need to exhibit their rights and let us know they are human too.  When we shut up and keep our religious rhetoric for our own behavior guidance and not foist it on others, life will settle into ordinary people living ordinary lives.

7/3

                     Shelagh.................................

                     Alice..........................................

                    DK............................................... 


                                   Love Joe

To serve, or not serve a gay? There is an example in the Bible: Lot lived in Sodom. I guess you could call Sodom the San Francisco of the ancient world. He had to buy, and sell to the people there. He only left because God told him to. His wife did not want to leave. She looked back because she liked her life there. The reason she was turned into salt for looking back was salt was the wealth of Sodom.
I guess those who think it is okay to look back, or even stay...might be given a salty taste.
I have always learned in business; An owner could hang a sign which reads..."We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Where did that right go?
My darling grandfather used to say, "You run with dogs, you get fleas."

The bakers in Oregon had served the gay couple often without any problem. The couple asked for a wedding cake for their wedding. A traditional wedding cake can be ordered by anyone; my mother ordered mine. The gay couple went out of their way to make sure that the bakers knew the cake was for a lesbian wedding. I've attended many weddings and never seen a single cake with writing on it. The couple who ordered the cake wanted to make a statement, which is what same sex marriage is all about: making a statement. It's irksome, irritating and downright insensitive. It makes a mockery of marriage, which was the intention. Accepting gay people as equals is easy because they are equals. Putting up with their demands and their intolerance is not so easy.

Accepting ALL people as equals is easy because they are equals. Putting up with their demands and their intolerance because of their differences is not so easy regardless of what those differences are.  Black, white or brown...gay or straight...Christian, Jew or Islamic...They are free to do their thing, but they don't have to tell everyone else they are wrong because they don't agree with their belief and it doesn't make it right to shove it everyone's face!  

How long before the Supreme Court strikes down the bigamy laws?

I'm getting too old for all of this crap!

JMHO!

I feel the same way, Don.  With all the rhetoric about these issues, I find quotes popping into my head.
"I now pronounce you man and wife."  "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." 
There are other statements made during the ceremony.  "For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part..." 
When problems arise, how many remember those vows? 
Weddings were between man and woman.  I suspect that civil unions will have their own set of vows that doesn't distinguish between sexes.  So long as they are happy and stay out of my face, I have no problem with their choices.  Forcing me to accept or endorse something that goes against my feelings, won't work.  I choose to live my life that suits me and that is what matters.

It's always amazing how tolerant our words may be when our thought and emotions are not. We're quick to say live and let live yet we complain about others seeking that same privilege.  Sometimes, it takes broadcasting a situation in order to correct it.

Discrimination against women is still an issue in across the world and in the U.S.  Nothing was done here until women stood up and threw it in the face of men that they were equal and capable.  Nothing was done for family leave for men until a few made examples of themselves to bring attention to the issues.

Again, I repeat.  On the cusp of change is a lot of dissonance but once the change is implemented, things begin to normalize because there's no power by example.

I do not have oodles of friends.  I moved often and friendships take time to develop.  Each place I've lived however, I managed to have at least one friend.  They vary in beliefs, ethnic origins, skin color and whatever as we became friends based on interests or ideas.  My dark skinned friends are not revolutionaries, just ordinary people.  But they have heartbreaking stories, many from subtle situations.

Even the Liberty Bell was cast with a crack in it.  A society creates the boundaries for living quality lives.  The more that it's done in love and acceptance, the stronger the bonds. However, like the bell of liberty, nothing is perfect but it doesn't mean we don't keep trying.

The great American people have raised more than $150,000 in just two days to pay off the Oregon baker's legal fees and fine. 

The lesbian couple will walk away with a combined $135,000. If they decide not to marry, one will be in receipt of $60,000 and the other will be better off to the tune of $75,000. The lesbian couple did not suffer loss of earnings, loss of jobs, loss of social standing, loss of a loving relationship or indeed, any kind of loss. Had they joined a golf course and walked into the male only bar, they would have been refused drinks and asked to leave the bar. They received $135,000 when told they couldn't order a wedding cake. They would have received nothing if they had been told they couldn't order a drink. That's the difference between food and drink.

Good analysis, Shelagh.  So what will it be?  Sure puts a damper on the drinking part.

Shelagh,

I couldn't agree more.

What happened to "It's my business, I can refuse service to whom ever I want," without even needing to state a reason?

Please keep in mind dear friends that this is one example - and regardless of their label, there will always be among us those clever enough to test the system and profit. 

It's like the one welfare family that cheats the system being used as the example to damn the entire system and those receiving welfare as shiftless cheats and nothing is further from the truth.

Corporate executive cheat the public out of $billions through their shifty practices to avoid taxes, the lack of safety standards, the profit at any cost, the reduction in wages and benefits in lean times that are never put back up in better times, cutting hours to avoid benefits etc. etc. but they have entire PR departments like BP that keep the airways buzzing with all their wonderful feats.

I'm surprised Shelagh put so much stock in this one example as she is usually right there with research and statistics.

I didn't put any stock in it. The meaning of the last sentence: the law is an ass. The good people of America were prepared to foot the bill; their generosity should not be written off as just one example. The legal profession was prepared to put a small bakery out of business and leave a couple, who have five children, with a debt of $135,000. 

If you want another example, a similar situation occurred in Northern Ireland, where the bakery was ordered to pay £500!

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/28/gay-cake-bakery-owners-appeal-against-discrimination-verdict-northern-ireland

I'm not disputing these instances of miscreant justice.  I just believe they are the exceptions and not a reflection on all people. 

The United States (and perhaps England too) has many laws on books that are left dormant until someone dregs it up for a particular circumstance.  New laws are always tested.

When it all cools down, people will get back to their daily lives and those seeking attention will disappear as no one will care.

It's always sad when laws work against people in the mainstream who believe they are living life according to their ethical sense of business.  However, the prisons are full of wrongfully incarcerated people in my opinion, mothers who wrote a bad check to feed their children, etc.  At one time women's prisons were primarily that type of criminal - and the state is left to care for the children and the non-paying fathers are free.

I remember often that the first test of insanity is whether you believe life is fair.  If so, the diagnosis is insanity.  Life is not fair.  Once a person accepts that fact, everything else falls into place better.

And Shelagh, I was intending to give you a compliment.  You have always supported your statements with a good bit of research rather than just throwing out an opinion without support like many.

However, I tend to believe that laws made for the governance of societies are compromises that will not please everyone but will work better overall than no laws.  Thus, obeying those laws is the safer path.  If one chooses not to obey, one also chooses the consequences.  For some, the consequences are worth making a stand.

I hear you, DK, but the American system of governance allows a single court case brought before the Supreme Court to set a precedent that changes the constitution. The appeal against this court ruling is likely to end up before the Supreme Court. The nine judges will have to decide if the rights of small retailers to follow their religious convictions and refuse to participate in events that go against their religious beliefs are just as viable as the rights for anyone to demand services under any circumstances.

dkchristi wrote:

However, I tend to believe that laws made for the governance of societies are compromises that will not please everyone but will work better overall than no laws.  Thus, obeying those laws is the safer path.  If one chooses not to obey, one also chooses the consequences.  For some, the consequences are worth making a stand.

The problem I have is with governments (city, state and national) that think they can govern everything!!!  From what size cola I can drink to what customers I have to serve.
 
Nine politically appointed, self-serving egomaniacs go in a room and take a vote and tell me what's right and what's wrong!  And most of the time they can’t even agree!!!
I'm sorry but I already have the Ten Commandments and common sense to tell me that!

Before it gets to the Supreme Court it goes through many other courts.  The Supreme Court is the court of last resort.  It is unfortunate that we have had so many years of a do-nothing national Congress.  Much of what goes before the Supreme Court should be legislative matters but they are so concerned with getting re-elected that they don't conduct the business of their constituents. 

My fear is that we have lost representation entirely.  Until the election process is revamped to provide some method of electing people to serve who actually represent the people they serve it will be difficult to find those "compromise" laws that I find at the heart of a democracy, an imperfect agreement of diverse peoples living in harmony by each giving a little and getting a little.  Compromise is always inferior to consensus, but it is the best than can be done most times.

As far as businesses serving the public, that has been argued many times before.  My opinion?  If you are going to profit from the public you must serve all the public except those who are a physical threat of violence or endangerment to the life and limb of the business staff or the potential physical destruction of the business.  In those cases, call the cops.

Otherwise, if you wish to serve only the few who fit within your personal religious values then you must sell your wares at your church to members only and to other church members of the same persuasion.  You must use no city infrastructure services that come from my taxes to support your business such as roads and highways and firemen and policemen and any assistance from City Hall. Most certainly, you may not use any Small Business Administration services or loans from the federal government or taxes sponsored business incentives.

Once my city provides services and a license to do business in my city is issued, I have a right to access that business regardless of whether we share the same values so long as I don't create a disturbance that requires calling the cops.  I am entitled to the same service provided all customers that enter through that door.  There are many instances in the world, including the U.S.,  of non-service to targeted groups.  That is not my wish for the country I love.

I recently learned that years ago San Bernardino, California, had segregated schools, public pools, restrooms, restaurants and other businesses - separating Mexicans who worked in the fields to provide our cheap food from whites. I never knew. Donald Trump would have been a young man, then.  He would have fit right in.

This nation has separated Mexicans, Indians, Blacks, women, gays and others, refusing them the opportunity to do business like everyone else or seek the same quality lifestyle through education and employment.  In 2015, I am not about to agree that separating people based on the religious persuasion of the pharmacist, the physician, the store owner or the teacher in a classroom contributes to the world in which I wish to live or the nation in which I choose to say I am proud to be a U.S. citizen.

I also do not believe churches, ministers, non-profit corporations or any of that ilk should be free of taxation.  They use taxed services for their ministry and therefore should contribute to that tax base.  They can put taxes in their budget like every other business.  I don't understand how this has remained in this country as non-taxable, especially in light of the call for tax relief all the time.  I have friends who have lived a tax free life because they are both ordained ministers who conduct their ministry from their home. In this case, they are lovely people who take advantage of the system.  I don't imagine they are the exception either.  I believe there are many religious organizations and non-profits that are not very religious and extremely profitable.

Guess I can forget being elected.  Taxation for religious entities and non-profits would raise a hue and cry from one end of the nation to another.  It's so obvious to me that they should be taxes.  To show such favoritism is not in line with my interpretation of separation of church and state.  They use tax paid services; they need to pay taxes.

The civil right to buy from a store should be available to everyone who behaves in a civil manner. Anti-social behaviour negates the right. The right to not participate in a formal activity, such as a wedding, funeral, engagement party, birthday celebration or KKK meeting, that might, in the opinion of the retailer, adversely affect the business by way of bad publicity, or might go against a retailer's personal beliefs, whether religious or otherwise, should be respected.

Bruce Jenner wants to dress as a woman and keep his male privileges at his golf club. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want to claim a right, you have to conform, and you have to respect the rights of others. 

Personalise the baker's dilemma by imagining Betty facing a $135,000 fine because of the behaviour of an elderly relative left in charge of Betty's small holding during Betty's short stay in hospital. Not understanding what a lesbian wedding meant, the elderly person said that flowers were not sold for such occasions. On returning home, Betty received a legal letter saying that she was about to be sued by two women who had been refused the right to buy flowers. It was the baker's husband who refused the order, not the baker herself. This could happen to anyone, which is why small retailers should be protected against those who set out to destroy someone else's livelihood. Big business does not require this type of protection, and comparing the two is akin to comparing a kitten with a fully grown lion. You need to protect one, but you need protection from the other.

7/7

                I just read that they want to cut our military by 40,000 not only
                will they be out of a job but all the business near the bases will
                go out of business,  has  the Federal Govt. lost it's mind ? We will
                be un-protected , once we were the mightest military in the world !
                Who would come to our aide ?

                                                                 Love Joe.........

Joe, we already have more military hardware than anyone else and there is more in the pipeline.  Do you suggest spending more money on the military while denying others enough food to eat?
History records how the mighty have fallen.  Empires rise and fall.  Examine the reasons.

40,000 men and women out of work and dumped into an already saturated market!

7/8

                            Evidently the left democrats don't get it ! But if something happened they
          would be the first to scream their bloody heads off ! Our country needs protection 
          against the elements that would do us harm and if that means taking those 40,000
          troops and putting them on the border to make dam sure these whack jobs don't 
          get in I'm all for it ..and yes I would give them permission shoot to kill...And you and I
          know the whack jobs in Washington DC who are in control right now won't do it ! We better
          wake up and fast...
                                                                    Cheers..Joe.....

I recall in the not so distant past when there was a draw-down in the military that some military Posts and Airbases were on the list to be closed.  The outcry had nothing to do with national defense, but rather to the loss of revenue in the areas affected.  Further, if one examines our military budget, it is usually about money.  They love to use "National Defense" to justify the spending. Who stands to gain?  The suppliers are at the top of the list and the American taxpayer foots the bill.  If that isn't bad enough, those who pay taxes see their money sent abroad with no accountability.  While this is happening, the less fortunate taxpayer is threatened with cuts to their livelihood while the rich evade paying taxes.  There is something wrong.  How to fix the problem is comes to the fore in election campaigns. 
We now have a volunteer army.  Many signup to have a job and the promised benefits on discharge.  Patriotism is no longer the reason.  There are exceptions and those exceptions occur during times of war.  Those who experienced combat have my respect.  It doesn't matter if the conflict is good or bad.  The servicemen and servicewomen follow orders and are placed in danger.  They deserve our respect.  They also deserve the support and benefits promised.  Providing jobs and healthcare to these Veterans should be a given.  Unfortunately many are cast aside.  The are no longer an asset but considered a liability.  The system is broke and needs to be fixed.