The Wikileaks affair

So what do you think of the Wikileaks mess? Overblown or detrimental? What do you think should be done with Bradley Manning, the guy who stole and leaked the cables? I think he should be executed for treason, myself, whether the leaks are harmful or not.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100727/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_afghanistan_wikileaks

Overblown. When I read reports of the content of the files I was left feeling - so what nothing new. I very much doubt if the files will turn public opinion further against the war as hoped.

Well, in a different article, some government officials discussed how all that raw data is actually a treasure trove in other ways. For instance, countries with the ability to analyze it, such as China, can form conclusions on how competent US intelligence is, how accurate their forecasts are (since the cables go back several years), etc.

The info may be overblown, but the leak itself is serious. It should never have happened. If it isn't treason, it is close.

Ann

You can't call it treason until you know who leaked it. If it was a foreign agent, that's not treason, it's espionage.

If the documents are indeed "once-secret" as reported, that's not treason, either. That's the freedom of information act working as it should.

Let's not jump to condemn someone before we have all the facts.

You want treason? Jane Fonda. Scooter Libby. Dick Cheney. Robert Novak. Why weren't any of them shot?

Assange was able to leak it only because Manning provided it. And I don't think any of it was available under the FOI act.

Fonda made some boneheaded appearances, but nothing on the level of leaking classified cables. As far as I know. Can't speak to the rest.

You'd be surprised what's available under FOI.

Fonda emboldened and empowered the enemy to the extreme disadvantage of American POWs. I'd pull the trigger on her myself. And I am a staunch opponent of capital punishment.

The others outed Valerie Plame as a covert ops operative. All her assets were put at risk. Her projects were rendered useless. We can't even know how much ground that cost us.

Libby, under the guidance of Cheney, did it for political gain to punish her husband for reporting what he knew to be true about Saddam's suspected,would-be WMDs rather than what the Bush administration wanted to have reported. Novak was their willing pawn, their conduit to the conservative press. He did the outing in his column.

What happened here is small potatoes compared to that.

Quote :

So what do you think of the Wikileaks mess?

"...if documents are deemed "once classified" then every american citizen has a right to know about them, as it is fundamentally american both to allow "freedom of the press" and to defend that freedom too, whereas if its intelligence service is so incompetent that it doesn't know which information should or shouldn't remain classified here, then it all points to all the more reason why they should be accountable to their citizens then..." mentioned the goblin feeling that if there wasn't some working framework under which "freedom of information" is guaranteed to its citizens, as in first amendment perhaps, then america just turns into an orchestrated democracy then, so the goblin just joked "...when the blind lead the blind then democracy is ditched..."

I am against executions no matter the crime.

Al Stevens wrote:

You'd be surprised what's available under FOI.

Fonda emboldened and empowered the enemy to the extreme disadvantage of American POWs. I'd pull the trigger on her myself. And I am a staunch opponent of capital punishment.

The others outed Valerie Plame as a covert ops operative. All her assets were put at risk. Her projects were rendered useless. We can't even know how much ground that cost us.

Libby, under the guidance of Cheney, did it for political gain to punish her husband for reporting what he knew to be true about Saddam's suspected,would-be WMDs rather than what the Bush administration wanted to have reported. Novak was their willing pawn, their conduit to the conservative press. He did the outing in his column.

What happened here is small potatoes compared to that.

I am more staunch!

Today it was revealed that the 90,000 pages do indeed "out" some intelligence assets in Afghanistan. And that the jerk who published them read only about 3,000 of those pages before releasing the whole mess.

This is not small potatoes. This is large potatoes.

Two possible ill effects. Our friends in Afghanistan might be hunted down and punished by the Taliban. Our ability to recruit more friends has been compromised. Who can trust us?

This is serious.

So it's even worse than Jane Fonda, is that what you're saying?

I'd be surprised if Assange read 3,000. Maybe 300?

LC wrote:

So it's even worse than Jane Fonda, is that what you're saying?

No, I didn't say that.

I didn't see where he said anything remotely resembling that.

Al said:

Quote :

Fonda emboldened and empowered the enemy to the extreme disadvantage of
American POWs. I'd pull the trigger on her myself. And I am a staunch
opponent of capital punishment.

I disagree with him, but he did say it.

Ann

Ann,

Talk about a stretch. I certainly did not say that wikileaks was worse than the Fonda affair. How on earth did you find that in my words?

I thought he meant Jane Fonda was worse!

You kind of flip-flopped, Al -


The Wikileaks affair Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:02 pm:

Quote :

You can't call it treason until you know who leaked it. If it was a foreign agent, that's not treason, it's espionage.

If
the documents are indeed "once-secret" as reported, that's not treason,
either. That's the freedom of information act working as it should.

Let's not jump to condemn someone before we have all the facts.

The Wikileaks affair Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:32 pm:

Quote :

Today it was revealed that the 90,000 pages do indeed "out" some
intelligence assets in Afghanistan. And that the jerk who published them
read only about 3,000 of those pages before releasing the whole mess.

This is not small potatoes. This is large potatoes.

Two
possible ill effects. Our friends in Afghanistan might be hunted down
and punished by the Taliban. Our ability to recruit more friends has
been compromised. Who can trust us?

This is serious.

It's hard to tell. To me, your second opinion sounds a lot worse than anything Fonda did.

Ann

There is nothing morally worse than what Fonda did.

But I didn't say what LC asked if I said, and you said I did say it. Then you quoted me as saying something else which had nothing to do with what LC asked.

You leapt to an unwarranted conclusion. I can only guess that you so much wanted to express your disapproval of my feelings about Fonda that you grabbed this opportunity to do so. In haste, obviously. You can do better than that. You usually do.

I changed my opinion of the seriousness of the wikileaks episode the day they announced that the leaked papers named names of intelligence assets. Thus it went from small to big potatoes. That's about it. You say potatoes and I say potatoes.

Anyway, given that announcement, the Wikileaks offense is more appropriately compared to that committed by Libby, Novak, and Cheney than it is to that committed by Fonda. Just based on the similarities of the offenses' potential consequences. In both cases, our intelligence operations were not only compromised, in some cases they were eliminated. And we'll never know at what cost.

The wikileaks guy doesn't deserves a firing squad irrespective of the consequences of his act. If we can ever assess them. As a private citizen without a security clearance he's in the clear. 1st Amendment and all that. Like Novak. But it was wrong, and he knew it.

But somewhere up the chain of leaks is someone who had approved access to those documents and who illegally leaked them. Like Cheney/Libby. That's the guy I want to find.

Quote :

But somewhere up the chain of leaks is someone who had approved access to those documents and who illegally leaked them. Like Cheney/Libby. That's the guy I want to find.

I'm not following -are you saying someone besides Manning really leaked those cables?

Al, you sound just like my brother.

Just the mention of Fonda's name is still enough to send him into a tailspin, too. Whether he would admit it or not, much of his disapproval has to do with her being a feminist, poking her little nose into a place she didn't belong.

Just me.

Ann

I am not anti-feminist like you describe your brother. My issues with Fonda have nothing to do with that. Searching ad hominem for some imagined and irrelevant character flaw in me does not deflect the severity of what Hanoi Jane did or add strength to your support of her.

Your brother is right, his views on feminism notwithstanding. She did poke her nose where it didn't belong--into the camp and the confidence of the enemy, the captors, jailers and torturers of Americans.

I don't know where you were and what you were doing when all that went down. I know where I was.

LC wrote:

Quote :

But somewhere up the chain of leaks is someone who had approved access to those documents and who illegally leaked them. Like Cheney/Libby. That's the guy I want to find.

I'm not following -are you saying someone besides Manning really leaked those cables?

No. He might very well be the guy. The investigation is still underway.

Quote :

I don't know where you were and what you were doing when all that went down. I know where I was.

I was at home, having babies who are now in their forties. It was a long time ago. Times and most people change.

Let's move on.

Ann

"...if someone publishes non classified material, and then gets investigated for doing so, what does that actually tell you about the situation in america now..." mentioned the goblin here, adding "...clearly the fault here is not with the barman but with those who ordered the drinks for their own hangover here...", in fact, the goblin understood that there was a very important "freedom of the press" principle at stake here, adding "...I think there would be a lot less deaths on the field if the president fulfilled his election promise of "bringing the boys home", where this war is neither winnable nor sustainable, so why do we keep on slaughtering ourselves, wasn't ten years in nam and now eight years in iraq enough, because I don't know what they might think they're achieving by being there, but simply, hearts and minds are hardening against them as the carnage continues..."