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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

Number of posts : 10720
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Age : 80
Location : Germany

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 1:07 am

The prelude to WWII was when Germany decided to occupy Austria and annex it to Germany.  Germany then occupied the Rheinland (a neutral demilitarized zone) that was occupied by France.  Hitler negotiated with Britain to occupy Czechoslovakia and afterward annex it.   After that Hitler began the invasion of Poland.
 
Today we have the development of problems in the Ukraine.  Ukraine was part of the Soviet Socialist Republic.  Much has happened since then with Ukraine seeking to break away from the Soviet (Russian) dominance and integrate with the West.  That has created the current crisis.
NATO promised protection to the Ukraine if they gave up their nuclear weapons.  They gave them up, and now NATO is between a rock and a hard place.  What to do?
 
No one wants another war.  Fighting over territory makes no sense, yet the will of the people is important.  To defend the Ukraine militarily means many people will die and those who survive will suffer.  If we do nothing, people will suffer, however lives will be spared. 
I personally don’t favor going to War over the Ukraine.  Diplomacy is important to defuse the threat of war and hopefully find a solution, however if that doesn’t work, war is still not a viable option.  We must learn from history and history tells us what such action can or will lead to.  Just my opinion.
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joefrank
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joefrank

Number of posts : 8210
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Age : 71
Location : Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 8:07 am

3/3/2014

                    Abe..

                          I never trusted Putin, I don't trust him now !
                         
                                                 Cheers..Joe.. Very Happy
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dkchristi
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dkchristi

Number of posts : 8594
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Location : Florida

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 1:03 pm

This is outside my scope. However, I do believe it must be settled diplomatically. I do understand, however, that other powers fear the U.S. influence and wish to be equally influential - whatever it takes.

Alas, the human suffering from wars.
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Al Stevens
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Al Stevens

Number of posts : 1727
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Location : Florida

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 1:29 pm

2014: Russia invades the Ukraine, USA is outraged
2003: USA invades Iraq, but nobody is outraged.

I'm probably missing something.
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joefrank
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joefrank

Number of posts : 8210
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Age : 71
Location : Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 1:50 pm

3/3/2014

                  I feel sory for the people of Ukraine, they will be the ones to suffer
                  when Russia comes in and starts killing people by the thousands just
                  to prove his ballsy point, he's evil ! I know war isn't the answer, the
                  world can put a severe blocade around Russia, no goods, see if that
                  makes him think twice about being a bully...

                                                           Cheers..Joe.. Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

Number of posts : 10720
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Age : 80
Location : Germany

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 6:37 am

Al, I agree entirely with you.  On the other hand, can you imagine what would have happened if there was outrage by other countries concerning America's invasion?  The few that did were immediately brought to task by Dumbsfeld, I mean Rumsfeld. 

When anyone suggests that we should go to war, it might be good to ask them, "Are you prepared to die for the Ukrane?  Are you willing to send your sons/daughters to die?"  Those are the hard facts of war.  I can see defending one's country, but to say we are not the world's policemen and then send our service people to die in the cause of another country, whether that cause be just or unjust, makes no sense.  Dead is dead regardless of the cause.

We witness occupation with the intent of annexation and keep quite.  Israel is doing that in Palestine.  Occupation with the intent of annexation is the goal.  We are threatening to freeze Russian bank accounts and that is a good tool.  Money is what makes this world go round.  There are things we can and should do to resolve the situation in the Middle East.  Instead of sending billlions of dollars to Israel, put them on notice to adhere to Resolutions and stop their occupation or be cut off from US Funding.  You say, this has nothing to do with the Ukraine?  Indirectly it does.  Whatever action is taken is viewed according to our actions elsewhere, and that is where we fall short in even-handedness.
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joefrank
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joefrank

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The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 7:40 am

3/4/2014

                      Abe..
                                 Yes I believe that would work, cut foreign aide ! I was shocked once
                       years ago when I read how much we give to other countries around the
                       world...$$$$$$$$$BILLIONS ! No wonder we're going broke? Foreign aide
                       has to stop, only for countries with national disasters, not for keeping
                       other countries and politicians in our pockets, look at history all the countries
                       we've given to hundreds of millions of dollars to back dictators, etc. and we
                       know dam well they hate us. Time to let the politicos their jobs are on the line
                       they either do what the American public wants or loose their jobs and guess
                       what their benefits......
                                                                Cheers...Joe... The Ukraine 925501
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

Number of posts : 10720
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Age : 80
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 7:45 am

Agree, Joe.
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dkchristi
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dkchristi

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 9:09 am

There is one, global, political arena and actions anywhere are connected to everywhere.  Yes, it is monetary.
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joefrank
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joefrank

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:19 am

3/4/2014

                             Yes, also our political interests that helps keep dictators
                     and other thugs in power. I think it's time the American public
                     put their foot down and for once throw the bastards out of power,
                     this year should be a clean sweep with a large broom, I've read
                     how so many politicians from both sides of the isle are all of a
                     sudden retiring, I wonder why ? Are they too old ? Or do they know
                     they will loose their seats? Ummmmmmh , 2014 should be a very
                     interesting year, I get ticked when I read a politician has been in
                     office for 30, 40, 50 years......

                                                           Cheers...Joe.. The Ukraine 925501
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alj
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alj

Number of posts : 9633
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Age : 76
Location : San Antonio

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:26 am

Until the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, it is going to be difficult for an agreement to be reached in the Middle East.  That, together with the facts that whenever Israel has agreed to withdraw from a certain area, once the Palestinians take control, they use their advantage to send more missiles into Israel.  There are two sides to the issue.  The perspectives of each side must be recognized and considered.

The same basics hold true for a solution to the circumstances in the Ukraine.  We need, at this point, to take it slowly and give the diplomats a chance to work things out.  John Kerry has been doing an excellent job from the time he first was selected.  His stand with Syria, Egypt, and the Middle East in general has been very effective.  We have avoided the need to go to war more than once.  Maybe we should just trust in the process before we panic.

I agree with DK that it, unfortunately, comes down to money.  Just look at the recent turnaround in Arizona once the constituents realized the financial impact.  The same holds true in the Ukraine.  

But it is also true that the worldview is changing, and Putin seems to be a spokesman for the old paradigm, not only in a financial sense, but in a moral one.  Like so many conservative politicians in the US, he seems to be fighting against this changing worldview.
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dkchristi
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dkchristi

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Location : Florida

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:29 am

It's the system of favors they developed in the Congress.  Longevity leads to the right committee assignments.  The right committee assignments permit the representative the power needed to "bring home the bacon."  Thus, an incumbent is more likely to be elected in order to maintain the power base developed.  As that power base grows, so does the the ability to raise money for the party and continue to be elected.  A small business person or a university professor with real knowledge hasn't got a chance against a seasoned, powerful, funded congressional representative of either party.  Those already elected love the system and are not about to change it - as with any other perks they enjoy and set for themselves.  Seniority at its worst.
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joefrank
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joefrank

Number of posts : 8210
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Age : 71
Location : Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 1:50 pm

3/4/2014

                  I have seen over the decades how politics can be the most nasty, dirty,
                  back stabbing, millions of dollars wasted, it's the dirtest game in town.
                  It should be like England they have three months to run, a limited amount
                  of money and that's it. Now in this country it's gotten so out of hand, it'll
                  now cost they estimate for 2016 a BILLION Dollars, that in itself is enough
                  to make you up chuck. Do you know what we could do in this country with
                  a billion dollars, plenty. As for Putin his people will get tired of him and he'll
                  just vanish like all the others..
                                                                Cheers...Joe.. The Ukraine 925501
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dkchristi
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dkchristi

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Location : Florida

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 3:10 pm

They wrangle in congress about which safety net programs to cut by a $million - and throw $billions away in campaigns.  Why are we such docile taxpayers that we let them get away with it?
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joefrank
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joefrank

Number of posts : 8210
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Age : 71
Location : Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 3:24 pm

3/4/2014

                    Because the American public is like docile lambs, they don't care
                    this country is going backwards instead of forwards, where the
                    hell is the fighting American spirit like we had during WW 2 and
                    the Ameican  Revolution...We need another 1776....

                                                   Cheers...Joe... The Ukraine 925501
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Betty Fasig
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Betty Fasig

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Location : Duette, Florida

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 3:39 pm

I beleive that the whole world is manipulated by the "news" here or there.  It is time for some profound research individually to make comments about any world news.  We are fed what the rich and powerful people want us to eat.  
Love,
Who ever I am.
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dkchristi
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dkchristi

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The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 6:38 pm

I used to let things upset me.  I guess I've finally accepted the truth that I have no say.
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joefrank
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joefrank

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Location : Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

The Ukraine Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 8:27 pm

3/4/2014

                We're all just flossom in the sea, we don't matter, leaders don't hear us,
                so why waste out breath on anything we don't have control ?

                                                         Cheers...Joe... The Ukraine 83899
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:47 pm

Betty, you are so right.
I've been thinking about a response to Ann's comments and then came to the realization that nothing I can say will change anyone's opinion when they are set in their beliefs.  Both political and religious propaganda has influenced many.  Fox News is one example of that.  Many believe what they want to believe and listen to a source that supports that belief. 
It is easy to say and even think that we have an open mind and are impartial, but if we're honest, we can't say that.  We are all influenced and it comes down to what source caused that influence.  Is it factual or biased?
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alj
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alj

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 2:55 am

It is true that we are all influenced by our beliefs.  Many of those beliefs run so deep we are unaware of them.  Some of those unconscious beliefs spread out to all or most of humanity.  One of those is the concept of Armageddon.  It is deeply ingrained in our psyches whether or not we intellectually hold to the sources that feed it.  That is why the unrest in the Middle East and Eastern Europe is so frightening, and why we see the situation in terms of good and evil, light and dark, rather than as a simple disagreement between neighbors - neighbors who each have their own perspectives and agendas.

It is hard to grasp the notion that we are all one, that there are no bad guys or good guys; as the song goes, we just disagree.

But the world is in the process of change, and more and more people every day are waking up.  The old power structures are crumbling and that's scary, too.

Trust in the process is slow in coming for many of us.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 8:50 pm

alj wrote:
Until the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, it is going to be difficult for an agreement to be reached in the Middle East.  That, together with the facts that whenever Israel has agreed to withdraw from a certain area, once the Palestinians take control, they use their advantage to send more missiles into Israel.  There are two sides to the issue.  The perspectives of each side must be recognized and considered.

The same basics hold true for a solution to the circumstances in the Ukraine.  We need, at this point, to take it slowly and give the diplomats a chance to work things out.  John Kerry has been doing an excellent job from the time he first was selected.  His stand with Syria, Egypt, and the Middle East in general has been very effective.  We have avoided the need to go to war more than once.  Maybe we should just trust in the process before we panic.

I agree with DK that it, unfortunately, comes down to money.  Just look at the recent turnaround in Arizona once the constituents realized the financial impact.  The same holds true in the Ukraine.  

But it is also true that the worldview is changing, and Putin seems to be a spokesman for the old paradigm, not only in a financial sense, but in a moral one.  Like so many conservative politicians in the US, he seems to be fighting against this changing worldview.

Palestine is under marshal law. The troops of Israel are the law in Palestine. The people of Palestine have no rights. Israel can take over their homes, and land. The people of Palestine can own nothing. Israel built a wall around what is left of Palestine. Israel cut off all the water supply to Palestine. They kill, and put children in prison for throwing rocks.

Israel wants all the people of Palestine either dead, or out of the country. In 1947 when the UN gave land to the Jews, it was agreed half would be Palestine. The Jews keep taking over more, and more. The people fighting the Jews are not the people of Palestine…they are people from other Arab countries. I have many friends from Palestine. They do not fight for fear their families will be harmed. Would you like to see pictures of the children the troops of Israel kill each week? Some are not even a year old.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 10:49 pm

Domenic, my information supports your post.  People on the ground are a better source for information than what we hear from the media.    How often do politicians go on a fact finding mission and come back fed with what the country wanted them to see and hear?  Remember Barry Goldwater who made the statement that he had been brainwashed?  That may have cost him the election for President. 
I have trusted sources that I will not name.  How to convey to another person the validity of information is not easy.  What I witnessed personally and then read the political view where what I saw was denied, makes me question most everything the country says.  We hear lies repeated often enough to a point where they are considered truth. 

If I were a Palestinian and my house was taken from me or destroyed and I was forced to leave for safety reasons and live in subhuman conditions in a refugee camp, I would not rest until I received justice.  If that justice was not forthcoming, I most likely would personally try to inflict punishment.  Stones are also called missles.  Throwing stones at the enemy is an act of frustation.  The response is often machine-gun fire.  The media refrains from showing the blood and guts spilled as too gruesome.  

The cause of the conflict keeps being brushed aside.  Those who claim knowledge of history should seek historical facts about the situation.  That information is available and must be sought from impartial and reliable sources, not from propaganda machines. That's my view.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyThu Mar 06, 2014 1:19 am

I believe Ann mentioned that the Palestinians/Arabs have not recognized Israel's right to exist.  That is simply not true.  Here is just one reference to that.http://middleeast.about.com/od/documents/qt/Plo-Recognizes-Israels-Right-To-Exist.htm
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

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Age : 80
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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyThu Mar 06, 2014 1:30 am

Concerning the Ukraine, one can hear reports about the crisis in the Ukraine and Russia's show of force from CNN International, the BBC, NBC, ARD and many others.  What they are saying is similar.  Most feel that Diplomacy is the right way to proceed.  Even with the similiarity in reporting, the differences are based on monied interests.  Oil and Gas is mentioned.
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alj
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alj

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PostSubject: Re: The Ukraine   The Ukraine EmptyThu Mar 06, 2014 1:34 am

Abe F. March wrote:
Concerning the Ukraine, one can hear reports about the crisis in the Ukraine and Russia's show of force from CNN International, the BBC, NBC, ARD and many others.  What they are saying is similar.  Most feel that Diplomacy is the right way to proceed.  Even with the similiarity in reporting, the differences are based on monied interests.  Oil and Gas is mentioned.
I think we have all agreed on that.
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