To plot or not to plot?

It's apples and oranges. There is no equivalent to the hours a violinist or ballerina spends burning in muscle memory (doing repeitive things that aren't even dancing or playing, often)

There is no equivalent to sitting in a gallery copying masters in order to get down the gesture of a brush stroke.


But whatever.

What's worse than the concept that hard work won't compensate for the lack of talent is that one of the most important ingredients in success in writing is LUCK.

If you write what you like and do a decent job of it, it might be something eveybody is dying to read, like the Da Vinci code or Bridges of Madison Avenue.

Or it might be something people can see is well written, but nobody is really interested in reading it, or enjoy your style.

If luck isn't a factor, then you enter the realm of writing to please popular taste.

I used to teach art and I wouldn't recommend copying old masters, although I know that students do spend time in galleries doing just that. Rembrandt used to teach his pupils the skills he'd acquired, but he didn't do them any favours. Paintings by some of his pupils have been attributed to Rembrandt and then, when found not to be the work of the great master, considered to be of little monetary value.

Doing something as well as someone else isn't valued in writing any more than in any other profession.

For some reason, you want to believe that writers can succeed without having to go through the stages of learning, developing, honing and perfecting. That's fine. You can think that way. It just doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm not good enough and no amount of hard work will make me good enough.

I don't want to write like Dan Brown. The film of his book made a fortune and yet it is one of the worst films I've ever seen.

I posted this on librarything:

Quote :

Feb 19, 2008, 6:20am (top) Message 15: shelagh

If you would like a one-off book about two children (aged ten and twelve) who go on a mission into space, you could try Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine. This is what one of the readers wrote:

"... your children/grandchildren will enjoy it... mine did
YOU will love it... I promise "


Feb 19, 2008, 1:49pm (top) Message 16: TeacherDad


This message has been deleted by its author.


Feb 19, 2008, 5:11pm (top) Message 17: shelagh


I (Shelagh Watkins) wrote Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine. My mother didn't write the quote -- my mother thinks the book is too highbrow, but I did write it for bright kids and I make no apologies for that. The quote was taken from the Leyland forum. You can read the actual quote here:

Leyland Forum

Feb 19, 2008, 5:52pm (top)Message 18: TeacherDad

then it sounds like a great suggestion, I'll put it our list...

The deleted message from TeacherDad said that the quote was probably from my mother.

I replied: my mother thinks the book is too highbrow, but I did write it for bright kids and I make no apologies for that...

For me to become a bestselling children's author, I would need to write for a mass audience not for bright kids but I don't want to. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of children's writers out there doing just that and I don't want to compete with them. I just don't.

If I did, it would be difficult for me and would not be an easy option because the established writers are doing a great job and I don't see that I could write anything that is any better than anything already in the bookstores.

I don't have an enormous ego and I don't feel that my work deserves to be on a bestsellers list. I would be astonished if my work did become that popular.

I guess the cooking analogy is a good one.

You could have an excellent French chef, who has studied food at the best culinary schools and perfected a dish. The food critics give this chef five stars and claim it is the most excellent food they've ever tasted.

Then some guy comes in who just doesn't get fine cuisine, tastes the dish and pushes it away and says it is the worst thing he's ever tasted.

Then you have this other guy who has been underfoot in his mother's kitchen since he was five. And he started helping with the family cooking since he was ten, and just loves fiddling around in the kitchen.

He loves cooking so much, that he endures the teasing from his classmates and takes the Home Economics class in high school, just so he can cook. Then he takes a business class and decides to open his own diner and does his own cooking.

That same guy who hated the fancy cuisine, goes into this diner and orders the special and declares it is the best meal he's ever had.

Who is the better cook?
The guy who studied at the best culinary school? The guy who never went to any cooking school?
It doesn't matter.

People have different tastes in books, music, food, and art.

The only right way to write is to sit down at your keyboard and begin punching.

Well, that is the only way that has worked for me so far.

There are many good writers around – some are on this forum. It is interesting to note that until a writer’s work is accepted by a publisher and given recognition, he/she is remains a nobody – a struggling writer. Fortunately, they get encouragement from fellow authors – colleagues, is you will, who are also struggling to have their work recognized. And, with lots of faith in themselves and persistence, it can happen.

I do not beleive in luck. I beleive in work, and that we create our own "luck" by the actions that we take. As such being "lucky" won't make me a great writer, but I will acheive great writer status as a result of hard work.

The secret to the chili is (depending on the size of your pot and taste) is to melt a 1-2 ounce piece of dark chocolate towards the end of cooking. It provides a very nice undertone. I'll pull a copy of the recipe out and stick it another thread just in case you want to try it out Sue.

For some reason, you want to believe that writers can succeed without having to go through the stages of learning, developing, honing and perfecting.

That's because the can. And do.

I'd say what people WANT to beleive is that no matter what their level of ability or talent, if they just work harder, or read the right book, or go to the proper seminar, or learn the right code words, they will be able to excell and sell their work.

And it just isn't true. Sorry, but it just isn't true. It's what feeds all the parasite industry that feeds off writing hopes and dreams. Similar to modeling....same thing: you can go to all the schools and photographers and stylists and fee-agents in the world, but if you don't have the looks and figure and poise to model, you aren't going to learn it.

This is really the answer to my comments elsewhere about all the exploiters of writers: people figure out what they have to do to be musicians or ballerinas or whatever. Or they figure out that it doesn' matter what they do, they aren't going to play in the NBA because they're only 5'6".

But writing, without any objective yardsticks or measurable technique, can keep holding out that promise forever: just find that magic key and you'll be a star.

You can believe in luck or not, but the chances of your tastes matching up to broad popular appeal is a matter of luck, and no two ways about it.

Since the cooking analogy is there: you can work for years developing a recipe for something you really like. But that doesn't mean it will be widely liked.

In fact, there's a case in point in that here. There's a great ice cream store on the island, with insanely addictive flavors. One flavor is cinnamon. The only one I don't like. Most people don't. Those who like it, like it a lot, but they are in th minority.

No amount of improving the recipe or marketing is going to change that. Nothing wrong with cinammon, it's just not lucky enough to be popular.


What I am saying here is not, if you suck, give it up. Nor is it, don't try your best.

What I'm saying is, the majority of writers are not going to be widely popular. Most, in fact, are not even going to satisfy wide enough tastes to get publishing contracts.
But there might be people out there who like their work. And the better they figure out how to do it, the more strongly people will like it.

So you find your niche, and your level, and work it.

There is absolutely nothing I can do to make more people interested in Mexican slang. There is no amount of improving the book or cool market technique that will change that.

What I try to do is make sure everybody in that niche hears about it, and that I don't screw up the chances they will buy the book.

Thanks, Pam, I will keep an eye out for it.

I don't believe in luck either. I won't say why here as I don't want to get bashed.

Sorry anyone would think of this as bashing.

And I'm really regretful to see that people are mis-interpreting what I'm saying here.

I would suggest that aspirant writers think it over. If you have 20 "How To Wrote Books" on your shelf and haven't sold anything yet, maybe that's not the approach that is going to work.

Maybe what you need to do is what all of us do, to some extent, in life itself: find out where we fit in and work well, and build ourself a home there. Is writing really that much different from real life?

I don't think so. The very lack of practical technique and trainability that makes it so different from the other arts is exactly what makes it close to life itself. In essence, what successful writers to is tell about life in a voice that sounds right to the readers or listeners.

According to what I have heard on this forum I shouldn't be doing as well as I am. I found a cover designer, had a logo done and got an ISBN number after starting a publishing company, doing at least 5 book signings a month, selling from my website as well as from amazon.com and B&N, have sold over 200 books, all on my own, and not one penny has come from my limited income. For someone who knew nothing and had nothing, I think I have come a long way baby. And again, I don't believe in luck.

Weaving dreams into reality. Congratulations Susie! Well done!
You're enthusiasm is admirable and your attitude to sales is one that every self-published or subsidy published author should adopt.

Unfortunately, unless books sell in their thousands, most of the authors I meet are unhappy and disappointed with what they consider to be poor sales and low royalties. They expected to make enough money to increase their income but when they take into account money spent on promotional items, gas for the car to get to book signings and other events and the time they put into promoting books that they could have used in paid employment, they don't even break even. They have spent more than they earned from the sale of their books.

Lin is trying to make these dissatisfied authors more realistic in their expectations but you only need to look at the length of the line of hopefuls auditioning for Pop (American) Idol to realise that what people want and what they are capable of differ enormously.

I can see lin's point and agree with him but I don't see that writing is much different to any of the other creative arts.

I saw a film recently set in Ireland, Once (2006):

"A Dublin busker, who ekes out a living playing guitar and repairing vacuum cleaners for his dad's shop, meets a young Czech immigrant who sells roses on the same street. She likes his song, and what's more … she has a broken vacuum cleaner! They soon find themselves playing music together in a nearby music store (since she can't afford a piano, the owner lets her play his floor models). Over the course of a week, they form a musical rapport and, newly inspired, decide to record an album."

They had to raise over two thousand pounds ($4,000) to hire a studio for the day to make a demo cd to take to England in the hope of finding fame and fortune. It reminded me of writers who pay to see their own work in print in the same hope of finding success in the shape of a publishing contract.

I'm rambliing! This is suposed to be a salute to Susie for being such a refreshing inspiration! Well done Susie!

When I look at Susie's avatar, I see an optimist with a glint in her eye that says she is always on the lookout for better ways, and methods that work.

Not different in that respect at all.

In LA there are clubs that charge bands to play there because they are places than help build recording success.

Motion pictures industry is like writing, except much more so. (The spread of agent-driven processes into publishing from Hollywood accounts for a lot of problems: you didn't used to HAVE to have an agent)

And you find the same mentality there, regarding "how to predict a hit". Most people see through a lot of it: the remakes, the sequels, the formula films. And one thing that happens is that people get tired of it and are suckers for something new and different.

So you get "Napolean Dynamite" or "Blair Witch" or "Juno" coming along and blindsiding the industry.

But the big secret nobody will admit, because they want to seem like hard-working saavy pros who build success to justify their pay, is the role of...luck.

There's a great article about this, which created a school of thought on the matter. It's based on math and formal logic and statistics. It's called "The Black Swan", after the occurence of black swans in that population.

Basically, it is saying that hits like that are the result of luck. Not quite random, but unpredictable successes. There are several ways that people can interpret that success as something else. None of them ever produce similar successes.

The guy who wrote Napolean Dynamite didn' succeed by working hard and studying and networking. It so happened that his quirky weird script, which just about any reader would reject immediately, struck a chord. After he ran into people who would finance it.

The hilarious thing is: if you talk to the really successful writers and ask them how they got where they are, they will almost always tell you they were lucky.

Ask a cute young starlet with nice tits the secret of her getting a film role and she'll always tell you it was because of her hard work and diligence in perfecting her craft.

BTW, I sold 300 books in the last two months. There have been times when the book was my sole source of income, and I was selling 10 a day. At present it just pays for me to be able to live on a Caribbean island instead of some cheap flat in a city.

I did everything myself except the artwork. Most of the thousands and thousands of books I've sold, I collated, stapled, trimmed myself.

The subject matter is the result of years of learning, the structure (and important factor in this) is the result of much thought and re-working. I created my own website after learning to write HTML code.

I made the trailer video myself, after learning how to use video editors for animation.

Basically I was lucky that there are a lot of people who want to know this stuff.

And that I'm a good writer that can make people laugh. That's not something you can work for. I was just lucky to have been born with a way with words and a sense of humor.

Anybody who says there's no such thing as luck is flattering themselves.

Hell, we're all lucky to be alive.

A close neighbour of mine in Scotland, where the summers average about one good summer in six but don't appear one every sixth year (sometimes two consecutive good summers followed by seven years of poor ones), is a very keen gardener. Each spring, he would clear the ground around the rose bushes, prune, mulch and feed. He would stake all the tall herbaceous plants and plant annuals and biennials. Backbreaking work that he did every year.

On a good year (when luck was with him) the garden looked spectacular -- a riot of colour and rose blooms that filled the air with sweet scent as you walked by.

On a bad year, the wind and rain flattened everything and the blooms rotted into the ground.

The work was always the same, the results unpredictable and the outcome of all the hard work often demoralising and disappointing.

It's a lesson I never forgot.

The luck you need has to come after all the hard work.

"The harder I work, the luckier I become."

I don't think anyone has ever told anyone else here, or on any of the message boards I've visited, that a writer doesn't need to work hard at becoming the best he or she can be.

We should do our best to learn all that we can about the craft of writing, about word usage, good grammar, developing and building plots and characters, and every other aspect of being the best craftsman we can be. In addition we should learn what we can about market targets, who our readership is and whether or not our books are what those readers are looking for. We need to learn all that we can about promotion, about making sure that as many people as possible know about what we have written, and exactly why they will want to read it. We need an internet presence, reviews, people telling other people, and we need to work at each point of this as hard as we can.

But even with all of the talent, the hard work learning everything we can about the business, only a few of us will be chosen by the major publishers to become part of their group. Only a few will see their work in bookstores and made into movies. An even smaller percentage of those will ever be able to earn a living from their writing alone. An even smaller, almost microscopic few will ever become Kings, Grishoms, or Rowlings. And we have absolutely no way of knowing which of us will be chosen. Some will self publish, or go with a publisher that accepts works that other publishers turn down, and some of them will become successful. But again, we have no way of knowing which of us that will be.

True, as in Shelagh's very good example, we can do things that might help us position ourselves to be standing smack dab in the middle of where the luck storm might strike, but we still have no control over where it actually hits, and who will be on the receiving end, or even if it will strike in the general location of where we have set up shop.

You can call it luck, or you can call it something else, but the fact is that without it, all of the hard work in the world, all of the hours spent learning and honing and polishing and submitting will not cut you from the herd. Without someone, somewhere, looking at what you've done and making a decision to invest their time and money in your work, you will simply continue to be one of the rest. True, you may be somewhat above many of the others, your work has lofted you to that position, but without that indefinable something, you will still not attain that lofty plateau that you were sure your hard work was going to take you to.

But the fact that every now and then one of us does hit the jackpot, the fact that it strikes when nobody expects it and takes someone to fame and riches and their works to near immortality, is what keeps us all doing the very best we can, and keeps the dreams alive.

Actually, I wasn't saying that a writer doesn't need to work at improvement. Quite the opposite in exactly so many words, in fact.


But now that you mention it, I don't much consider writing work. And I don't slave away to try to do anything "better"...I work on solving the problems at hand.

I'm used to popping out $2000 articles in a couple of hours and sending in first or second drafts. Sorry, but I did it for years. I'm not the only one, either.

I don't understand all this "Oh, we have to work and slave to write anything worthwhile" stuff. It sounds like loser talk to me. Sorry, but that's how it sounds.

It just isn't the way people talk who sell a lot of stuff. You can get upset at that. Or you can think about it and file it away in your "actions of the succesful" file somewhere. If you're bleeding on your keyboard, you probably aren't doing it right.

When I was just a kid I read a quote by somebody...and I'm sorry I can't recall just who. A major seller: Michener maybe.
What he said was, "I keep a perspective. The whole world's out there knocking themselves out to make a living, working their butts off. And some lucky SOB gets to be a writer."

If I'm advising anything here--other than having a firm grip on who you are and where you want to go with it--it would be something this:
Put your sweat into the marketing; writing is a natural flow of energy. Solving problems isn't work, it's part of the process. Don't waste time thinking you have to practice or memorize or do exercises. If you're a writer, you know how to write your stuff.

I want to thank Shelagh and Zada for their kind words. You have no idea what they mean to me coming from the two of you! I have never felt as an equal here on the forums. Not your fault, it is a fault of mine. I always felt that everyone here was much more experienced than me and had all the answers. However, I am beginning to realize after your statements and typing up my story to tell you all on another thread, that in some ways I am up there with you. I may not have sold as many books as you have, or written as many (so far) as you have, but the experience I have had, in some areas, has been far greater. (Though I probably will still ask questions. )

So yes I am an equal and proud to be among all who are here on this forum!!!!

Thank you, Sheiagh and Zada, for helping me see that!

I love it when I see people grow in confidence!

I can still remember a group of school girls falling over each other as they tumbled into the art room after a school trip to Venice.

During their first term studying for a major exam, I set them drawing exercises. In the first set of exercises, they were only allowed to use a dot. In the second set of exercises they were only allowed to use straight lines and in the third set of exercises they were allowed to draw with curved lines and finally with circles.

A whole term passed and they hadn't drawn a single picture. They hated art and they hated me. In the second term they had to learn how to apply pressure to a pencil to determine the quality and depth of a line. They had to learn how to control the pencil without lifting the pencil from the paper.

The first time I asked them to draw an object of their own choice, they had to draw the object without using any shading. The three-dimensional appearance of the object had to be represented by the width and depth of line.

They produced some amazing pieces of work. When I placed sea shells, wood bark, leaves and coral before them, I asked them to study the objects before they started to draw. Suddenly, the exercises started to make sense.

The day they fell over themselves as they entered the art room they couldn't stop talking.

"Oh miss, we went to Venice and saw EVERYTHING"
"We saw the reflections of the buildings in the water, the bridges, the boats, the colours and the textures."
"WE saw things that everyone else missed because we do ART and we are SPECIAL."

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you lot are special all right.

Funny isn't it that they were the ones who were special? LOL!

Still seems to me that the "luckiest" among us are really the ones who do lots of work. Whether it is energy applied to honing writing skills, marketing or all those related activities, there is plenty of sweat equity going in to what we do. I congratulate all of you for the efforts that you make and the results you reap.
We all measure success differently, and so it is really something to see that we can all achieve it in one way or another.