Mel's Forum?

lyntx wrote:

alj wrote:

Sometimes we just get misunderstood.

See what I mean, Alice?

Ann

Misunderstood? Bull. I liked you fine when i joined, but youre many posts about your opinion about literary fiction and commercial fiction made me feel different. Paint by numbers, you said in one. There are others to.

Misunderstood? youre supposed to be a writer and we know writers by what they write. I can read, maybe I don't write so well yet, but I can learn. I know you by what you write and what youve said, hinted at many times. As someone who wants to learn, I'm insulted by your opinions.

And, you didn't answer. What do you consider literary fiction, and if it's the only thing worth writing, why aren't YOU writing it?

Why are you insulted by her opinions? She is entitled to an opinion and to express it.

If not everyone has a book inside them, they all certainly have a story, at least one. The worth of that story is in its telling.

Once upon a time there were two guys driving toward each other on a narrow road. They came to a one-lane bridge. The first guy leaned his head out the window and shouted, "I never back up for a #$%^&* fool!" The other replied, "I always do," and turned his car around to let the first go by.

You have a good day, too, Chris.

Ann

Ziban, Chris, JCT kdu,

Are you lyntex also?
You seem pretty enraged to me.

Ann does write literary fiction, as I understand the term. At least that's how her historical novels look to me.

LC wrote:

Ann does write literary fiction, as I understand the term. At least that's how her historical novels look to me.

I try, LC. As Al says, "The worth is in the telling."

Ann

We learn most from those with whom we disagree.

2/26/2011

I've written four books and I'm very proud of them.

1. Is Your Father Black ?

2. Dusty

3. Clara Layten - The Chelsea Murders

4. Visions Of Freedom


I've read many great books by other authors including authors
who were published by PA, many of these books had great
stories to tell. Today the writing world has thousands of writers
it's almost as bad as the art and photography sites I belong to
the competition is stiff......


Cheers..Joe

LC wrote:

Ann does write literary fiction, as I understand the term. At least that's how her historical novels look to me.

I agree historical and literary.

I think I know the answer to how Mel's forum ended.
When people explode and become ugly and unpleasant, why go there?

Most people don't need to read four-letter words aimed at others from writers.

alice wrote:

lyntx wrote:

alj wrote:

Sometimes we just get misunderstood.

See what I mean, Alice?

Ann

Misunderstood? Bull. I liked you fine when i joined, but youre many posts about your opinion about literary fiction and commercial fiction made me feel different. Paint by numbers, you said in one. There are others to.

Misunderstood? youre supposed to be a writer and we know writers by what they write. I can read, maybe I don't write so well yet, but I can learn. I know you by what you write and what youve said, hinted at many times. As someone who wants to learn, I'm insulted by your opinions.

And, you didn't answer. What do you consider literary fiction, and if it's the only thing worth writing, why aren't YOU writing it?

Why are you insulted by her opinions? She is entitled to an opinion and to express it.

Everyones entitled to an opinion, Alice, but I think its terrible that a writer would post low opinons of certain writing on a writers forum. And since I want to write commerical fiction, its tasteless.

Quote :

the competition is stiff......

I wish competition was not a factor. With luck, I'll write a good book. With luck, others will, too. With luck, we will all get to read the good books of each other.

Competition injects elements not related to art into the artistic endeavor. For me, that compromises the quality of the art because it consumes physic energy that would be better used to create.

zizban wrote:

alj wrote:

I don't play games, lyntx, and I've learned (I think) to not get baited into useless arguments.

You have a good day, OK?

Ann

So your talking your ball and going home? Why don't you fucking answer the man's question?

He asked "why aren't you writing literary fiction?"

Well, answer instead of being a baby when you are loosing yet another fucking argument and walking away?

This kind of language is unacceptable. I let it go because you are in the process of promoting your yet-to-be released book. You may think that the readers you are trying to attract will not be put off by such low level language that shows a distinct lack of imagination. I doubt it.

By the way, as far as I know, Lynn is not a man.

Lynn,

If you have aspirations to become a commercially published author, why don't you start a thread so that you can ask questions to help you to learn about the business of commercial publishing and how best to go about accomplishing that aim?

Thanks, Shelagh. I find vulgar language offensive when it is not part of a literary work where such language has a literary context. I have always believed that disintegrating to vulgar language shows limited command of language - the inability to find the right words and therefore settling for vulgar words. Comments on these forums are often picked up by Google. Once written, forever seen. As writers, our words are seen as a reflection of who we are.

Ann Livingston Joiner and her literary fiction need no defense. She is one of the best.

Love,
Betty

I do reading for "publication worthiness".
I recently started reading a manuscript and the same four letter word appeared so often that I did a word search for that word. After counting its usage 100 times in the first 20 pages, I stopped reading and recommended "decline" for the book.
It was certainly not a book I would want to read. It may appeal to a very small segment of the population and therefore have a limited market. Secondly, it appeared that author was incapable of finding other descriptive words to make the point.

I also dislike movies where vulgarity becomes the central theme. I can understand it's appropriate use in certain situations, but as a general means of conversation, it is repulsive. That's my opinion.

Vulgar language: I have no problem with it. It's part of our vocabulary, people use it, characters in books use it, and there are places where substituting more gentile language produces less believable literature. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a darn." The same thing is true of racial pejoratives or any language intended to disrespect someone. Those words are real and they are in use and they have their place in literature.

I do have a problem with people using any kind of language to make ad hominem attacks on those with whom they disagree. I wish they would discuss issues, not personalities. That's where they display their weaknesses, not in the words they choose. I would not, however, set myself up to challenge their right to do that, but I reserve my right to disapprove.

I admire Shelagh's restraint as moderator and Shelagh's and Ann's achievements as writers. If we are taking sides in this tussle, and anyone gives a rusty [expletive deleted] where I stand, consider my position stated. Bring it on.

"...you see..." started the goblin, confessing "...I don't know anything about your books, nor whether I'll ever have the time to actually read them, and yet your posts are most enlightening to read here, and perhaps that's what other readers will be looking out for when they come onto this forum in search of you now, in that for example if you were curious about an author, of course you could go to their official website for what he or she wants you to see as their sales-pitch then, but here it's different, for here my dear humans, one gets to see the author in action in conjunction with other authors now..."

Shelagh wrote:

Lynn,

If you have aspirations to become a commercially published author, why don't you start a thread so that you can ask questions to help you to learn about the business of commercial publishing and how best to go about accomplishing that aim?

Good idea. Since most everyone here thinks its ok for a writer to slam genres, and says Ann writes literary fiction, I'll ask. I've read her writing, and while its enjoyable to read, its still like every historical romance I've ever read, what she calls paint by numbers kind of writing on one post and she said its to bad that people love commerical writing, that its boring and on another that its to bad people want to read it.

I may not have the friends here she does and may not have the degrees, but I have enough common sense not to slam other kinds of writing on a writers forum.

I'll go now and start that thread.

2/26/2011


There is no need for vulgar language. I believe everyone
should act like ladies and gentlemen , many times I've
disagreed with someone here and have never used vulgar
words.......


Cheers..Joe

lyntex,

You won't slam the genre , but have no difficulty squashing the writer--Why?
Just curious.

Because I believe every writing has good no matter what it is. I've tried to get along with her, but to many of her posts are insulting to commerical writers. Putting down the kid in school that loved the western writer was outrageous. I was thrilled my son wanted to read so I let him read anything he wants. I'd never tell him not to read trash or in any way make him feel bad about what hes reading like Ann has done many times. I got tired of it. I've had people put me down all my life for one reason or another. It's not so bad, its made me want to improve, but I thought here, with other writers, I could talk and learn, not made to feel bad because I don't read or want to write literary stuff.

Just for the record. If you've been here a while, you know this.

I spent 22 years teaching what we call "at risk" students in experimental programs that were designed to keep potential drop-outs in school and help them finish high school and even get into college. I did that by choice, not because it was the only job available. I did it because the plight of those young people got to me, and I wanted to help them break out of some dismal situations.

For several years during that time, I taught an AP (Advanced Placement) section. The course prepared the students to take the College Board Advanced Placement Exams, which allowed them to enter college with credit in the courses they passed the exams for. The district was reluctant to let me do it at first, believing that the best we could do for these kids was to get them ready for a local community college and maybe an associate degree. My superiors convinced the district leaders that it was a good idea.

Since we were a small campus, and the class had to have at least ten students for it to "make," I taught both 11th and 12th at the same time, setting up different activities for the 11th graders, who were studying American Lit and the 12th graders who were studying British Lit. Since it was a small group, we met in a round table discussion format, kind of like an upper level college class. We studied Shakespeare (11th grade, too - we all read Hamlet) T. S. Eliot, especially his Four Quartets (Eliot was born in America but moved to England, so he counts as both) and each grade level had to read and study 5 novels - American authors for 11th, British authors for 12th. Since they would only have about 30 minutes for the essay portion of the test, we spent a lot of time doing timed writings. We learned structured writing since that was what they would be graded on.

The scores on the AP exam range from 0-5 with 5 being the highest. The students had to earn at least a 3 to get college credit. The first year out, with 10 students taking the course, we had 5 3's, 4 4's, and a perfect 5. We had to become a close-knit bunch, because we had a lot to do in a short amount of time. If you want to get a feel for the pressure, see the film, Stand and Deliver, a true story about the LA teacher, Jaime Escalante (played by James Edward Olmos) and the success of his AP calculus class.

The young man in question was a member of that group. He came with an attitude that threatened the success of the group, since we had to work cooperatively, as a whole. With these kids, you have to figure out what works; you can't play by the rules because they don't know them. He had to know several things: He was part of a team, he would be expected to perform at a high level, and he had to read and understand college level literary fiction. That meant formula westerns were not on the table. By dealing with him directly and early on, he came around to seeing that he needed to extend himself, and by the end of the course, he was helping the other students with their writing and had stopped setting himself apart from the group. He wrote his essay on Crime and Punishment, and made a 4. (The 5 came from a student who wrote a comparison of the symbolism of the river in Huckleberry Finn to the "river god" in Eliot's poem, "The Dry Salvages."

That school was very successful overall. We met regularly to plan and monitor our discipline system. We held high expectations and let the kids know we believed they could achieve those expectations. We knew that true self esteem would only come from accomplishment of challenging goals. We were totally committed to those kids, and we did what we needed to do for them to succeed because we loved them.

Sometimes, it takes a while to get to know people, especially when we don't see or hear each other, and are limited, in our perceptions, to what we read and see written. OUr perspectives are incomplete and we might draw conclusions that could be incomplete.

Sorry for the rant.

Ann

Ann, all I know is what I see right here on this forum. What youve done in the past is the past. I don't think your misunderstood or anything else. You state your opnions, and as Alice said, everyone is entitled to them. You have a snobbishness about commerical fiction, well, I have a snobbishness about certain other things, but I wouldn't go among people that like those things and put them down by action or words, then hollar I've been misunderstood.

As I said before, your supposed to be a writer. If your not understood, then write better.

2/27/2011



Who is Lynn ? Is this person a he or a she ?


Cheers...Joe