Difficulty of selling books by unknown authors

Financially, wouldn't this leave everyone in the same place? I may be wrong ...you're the accountant, lol. But we'd all be better read, for sure.

LC,

Thank you--a response!

For a year , the outlay of each author would be --considering $30.00 per book times two times x 4 = $240.00.
$ 20.00 max per month.


Some authors would get nothing if their book was never chosen.

The chosen books would get quite a buzz and might even attract wider attention.


We need to get people reading our books. 360 people shouting at once about one book,makes a better impact than 360 people trying to toot their own horn.

We need to focus, and support good writing.

It would also encourage good forum interaction. Act like a jerk and your chances of having your book chosen would not be good.

I'm thinking on Shelagh's thread and forum--all or any of this would be subject to her approval.

I am merely brainstorming.

I have a hunch there are better ideas out there,

Rattling them around in your own head will not help we need to see them.

Maybe authors don't like to support each other. Maybe they just like to fight--sure seems that way.

WHATEVER...I am thinked out on this thread.

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR BOOK SALES--YOU WILL ALL NEED IT! I AM GOING SHOPPING

Dear Alice,
What we are talking about is just buying the books, not reading them, right? I know that sounds just awful. But books are written about all sorts of things that may or may not be interesting to the purchaser. So, suppose the choice of the month is a book about strange and unique ameoba that you never met and could care less about. The purchaser has no obligation to read or even understand the book, just buy it during it's promotion. I can understand that and will sign on to do that. Perhaps a drawing of all the members books would be a fair way to do it.

The other question I have is; Is every member's book available at Amazon? Does it matter? Say they self published and bought 500 copies of their book and are the sole source for it.



What about our anthology?

I like the idea, however and would gladly do anything other than sit on a committee to put it into operation. You are the wizzbang at that part, so I nominate you chairwoman of the committee to be.

Love,
Betty

One time on the PAMB, we had a drawing. Those who chose to be in the drawing submitted their names and then someone drew two names of those who would read each other's books and write reviews on amazon. I read John's book about his theory of the beginning of the earth and he read Flow On Sweet Missouri. We were both reading books outside our circles of interest, but both seemed to enjoy what we read.

It was a purely voluntary drawing.

Carol

Thanks, Betty and Carol!

Great thoughts.

Of the 360 members, 260 made less than 10 posts and 114 members did not make a single post! Why did they join, you might ask? To post their covers on the Gallery!

The idea that members are here to support one another is true for only ten-fifteen percent of the members.

Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine is selling on Lulu for £6.20 ($8.71 ($14.50 including shipping)). The book is 6" x 9" and has 197 pages, I'm practically giving it away! Is it selling? Not noticeably.

An ebook version is selling on dozens of sites for $5.99. Sales are dismal.

The only way to sell self-published/POD books is directly. All the profit is eaten up by the cost of getting the books into the hands of buyers. My ego is either too big or not big enough, depending on how you look at it, for me to spend hours of my time traipsing around the country to amass sales so that I can say that my book sold x number of copies.

I wrote the book; I sent it to publishers, who sent it back -- presumably because they couldn't make any money out of it. I made it available for anyone to read, firstly through PA and secondly through Lulu. I did my bit. I wrote a novel full of useful information for young adults. I found a way of publishing the novel. No one is interested in buying the book. People want to read it -- but they don't want to buy it. End of story.

Ok, Alice!

I am getting fired up, now.

If a member has not posted on this forum in the last 3 months, their book is not in the drawings of books of the month to be selected. But, if they have posted in that time, their name can be in the pot. All books, great and small put in the same pot. No matter if you are so verbose that it would take a year to read your stuff or if you are 150 pages. All the same chance. No one has to review. If moved to do so, it is your own look out.

The people who would like their books considered must list them here. That list will be cut up into little slips with each authors name and book on the slip. The people who have written 10 books, get 10 slips with a name of one book on it, each..

A person we trust implicitly, will be in charge, with a witness, of the drawing. I pick Alice for this since the whole shebang is her idea. She and Dave can be the drawer's. She can make a video of it an put it on Utube so we all see the drawing as if in real life!

Everyone on the list agrees to purchase the book that is drawn out of the hat. We do that without compunction, no judgements on the writer, the forum or the selectors. It is just a matter of book sales, nothing else.

Love,
Betty

Thank you Shelagh for your candid expression of the experience shared by many unknown authors with published books. It is not only your experience with PA and Lulu but also others' experiences with major publishers, small and micro presses and self-publishing. Many are just not as candid.

A local guy self-published a book that he sold from his garage to the tune of 5000 copies and building momentum. He is a regular salesman first, writer second. He is everywhere! Another local woman with a way overpriced childrens' book was putting away the local sales like mad, until the market was saturated. Another local woman was visited by God who helped her write her spiritual book that she sells with tea cups and tea bag sets in gift shops and at every church where she does a workshop. She includes a "free" book in the price of her "self-discovery" workshops. She does have some educational credentials. They all believe in themselves and their writing until they simply wear out and are no longer in the news.

Self-promotion takes a lot of energy. I always turned away from Tupperware, Avon, Mary Kaye, Amway, Nutri-Life, etc. that were great part-time jobs for many of my friends. Not me, I am a writer, not a promoter. I wasn't going to have house parties where I expected my friends to buy stuff so I could buy stuff I wanted later.

Instead, I invite my friends and family to stuff my book signings so they look busy. Busy looks popular and actually draws real book purchasers. I took my mom with me to hawk books at festivals. Fortunately, she is a salesman at 90 and was a great asset with her southern charm. I have a web site, a blog, am a member of oodles of social networking sites and since PA fell out with Amazon, I haven't a clue how many books I'm selling since the sales are from third party sellers. PA has changed their prices so often that my head spins. Last I knew, I bought a hard copy for $14.95 and the paperback was selling back at $24.95 after a stint at $8.99.

I have excellent reviews and some candid forum colleagues pointed out anything they felt was amiss in my writing, nothing that tightening it up with a few less words couldn't fix. I did the television, radio and newspaper review circuit in Southwest Florida and in Western Michigan. Arirang: The Bamboo Connection was shelved at six B&N stores whose corporate policy now prevents them from ordering to replace those sold. I sold out at every book signing, but B&N will no longer allow POD books, PA or anyone else, at the discretion of the local manager. It has to go through corporate and be on the regular ordering docket before a signing is permitted.

These struggles are just exhausting. I have therefore slowed down in the last year while I wrote Ghost Orchid and short stories for Romance of My Dreams anthologies, and so did sales. As I often say, a day without self-promotion is a drop in sales. McDonald's never slows down, neither does Wal Mart. Someone has to keep the focus on the author and the book or the fickle market forgets and forges ahead to the next star.

Personally, I believe it is reality. The marketplace will pick the winners. Every great writer will not get an audience. Talent is a gift, not a guarantee. For all those with a novel in their head or a manuscript in their drawer, we have put ours into print. We took one more courageous step regardless of the medium we chose to accomplish that goal. Some of us should have left it in our head or in the drawer, but we'll figure that out eventually and do better next time or change dreams.

I used to cry on the PAMB - "of 35,000 (now 50,000) writers, doesn't one of you know Oprah Winfry or have a relative that's an agent or a connection at MacMillan or a friend in Hollywood? Does someone know a reviewer of reknown hungry to review our 35,000 new books?" No one ever answered those posts. They probably kept their connections a close secret.

I did have connections to an editor with a major publisher to whom I gave a manuscript in a social setting where it was highly inappropriate, so desperate was I to get that break. I wasn't invited to the places where she hung out in the future. I think I broke the social code and outcast myself.

I have read many PA books and truthfully found many of them that I couldn't get past the errors and then I couldn't get past the first chapters. I was embarassed to get back to the eager authors, as eager as I am for praise, to tell them I just couldn't do their book justice. That doesn't include the books in a genre that I didn't like at all. It does absolutely no good to help an author promote a book that does not have that "something" that grabs the reader from the first page and hangs on through long nights with a flashlight in bed and sitting at the carpool. It may not grab everyone, but it has to grab a sufficient number of readers to realize its potential. I read a few PA books that held my attention to the end, but it was the sheer excellent writing that held me, the story that touched me, not the commercial value of the book.

Of course, I am referring to fiction. Non-fiction and memoire are whole other categories that I am not mentioning. No matter how much we attempt to help with selected book promotions, we may particularly like one book or another because we like and respect its author as much as the story. We may differ in how we feel about errors and opening hooks. We may have different levels of sophistication ourselves about what constitutes a marketable book. If it was up to me, I would never have taken Twilight to market because I detest vampire romance, especially for already confused teenagers. Yet, when I saw the DVD, I was hooked.

With all that said, I like creative thinking; so, please count me in for any plan that has consensus. Obviously, I had Twilight wrong!

Shelagh wrote:

The only way to sell self-published/POD books is directly. All the profit is eaten up by the cost of getting the books into the hands of buyers. My ego is either too big or not big enough, depending on how you look at it, for me to spend hours of my time traipsing around the country to amass sales so that I can say that my book sold x number of copies.

People want to read it -- but they don't want to buy it. End of story.

So true Shelagh! Everytime I went a-traipsing with my books, I sold some, but the gas to get there and back (or the postage!!) was often as much or more than what I was making from them.

I can give a zillion books away, but selling them is another story. One good thing, though, that I saw on another thread is that books do a good job at keeping bums dry when used as a seat in the rain. That might even encourage a few more sales...a multi-purpose book

And then I joined www.redroom.com where I am a member not an author because PA is not recognized as a legitimate publisher. Will the insults never end. They don't count many small presses either.

You are in good company, DK! I was invited by Belle Yang, one of the founding members of Red Room but, when I joined, they wouldn't make me an author. Their loss.

That's one of the reasons I am not certain any system to promote books that do not have the legitimacy of a major publisher will work. There are too many glitches and barriers built into the system. I credit DT for being a member of the Author's Guild. I thought publishing with L&L Dreamspell would legitimize me; now I wonder. I'll keep slugging away, anyway. That's just the way it is.

Funny thing, though; when I buy a book, I don't care who publishes it. I just care about the genre and the author. People do ask me though who my publisher is and then say, "oh," as though that took care of their question. That's why I was so absolutely thrilled when I was at a dinner where L&L Dreamspell came up by two people obsessed with reading their books.

Dear Dk,

What I considered this promotion, if promotion it becomes, was not about quality of work, but promoting anyone that got the good luck to be the selection of the month. Otherwise, someone would have to deem who the worthy people are.
Like you, I have read with hope some manuscripts that needed work. Most had some good idea. A lot were just that, a good idea without expression. Mine might be included in the latter. I do not really know. People are kind on message boards. We like each other, we know how much of our hearts are entwined in our hopes and our writing. We would not hurt anyone.

Alice's idea is a good one. Here we are, the few people that we are, the great buying public. We have the great advertising guru's (namely Alice, et al.) put before us what we should buy this month. It is no different than any advertising affrontery. We buy what is put before us. We do not have to go back to the store and tell them it was a piece of crap, no! we bought it, it helped the producer of the book, namely the author, to be a little better off. It is the way of big business,,,,at least the way I understand it.

If Alice had been in charge in the depression, little Chinese children would have had enough to eat.

Love,
Betty

DK,

I read about thirty PA books. I read nonfiction more often than fiction and found the books of authors here as excellent as any I've read from big publishers.

Errors were not a problem in the books of authors here. I am not just back-slapping, but feel these were excellent. But then, knowing the authors as serious and knowledgeable regarding their writing is also a factor.

I hired an editor who did an excellent job of editing my books. An author friend read chapters as I wrote them and made excellent suggestions. I returned the favor of reading three of his books as he wrote them.

There is the reality you mention. I think there are those who wrote one book and were disappointed. I know one woman who was very serious about writing a series of books and had five published with PA. I read the first and it was very good, but not a type of book I read often. She is an outgoing woman and has done well.

I don't know the answer. I just know that many who post here love writing, are continuing to learn and improve and have stories and talent. I would never discourage them in a million years.

Carol

Dear Betty,

Buying a book you are not going to read or recommend will have minimal effect on increasing sales. Word of mouth is the most important tool we can use to help with promotion. The catch twenty-two is that readers who enjoy reading a book by an unknown author are reluctant to say anything. They do not have the courage of their convictions (that phrase did not come about by accident!).

Rather than spending money on books, we could start a campaign to spread the word about a chosen book. If we have strong convictions and show our belief in the quality of a particular book and what it offers, then we can create a buzz.

The only reservation I have is that it didn't work for Forever Friends. Today, I received this email from one of the contributors:

"Dear Shelagh,

I just did a Sunday morning guest spot on a radio show
called Sunday Papers with Rick Kogan. It was a half hour guest
spot.

He asked me to read one of my stories and I read “Mr. X
and Mr. Y” and gave a great plug for Forever Friends with your name stated as
well.

You might be able to get it on the
internet.

Go to WGN-AM radio, Sunday Papers, Rick Kogan August
9th 7:30 to 8am segment.

Warm regards,

Elynne"

Elynne is still actively promoting the anthology but she is one of very few.

Actually, when I was reading PA books, was long before I came to this forum and with an entirely different group of people. Only a few are the same. My comments about errors and gripping fiction stories is not to disparage anyone; I have had my share of recommendations that I took to heart. I know that many took care to eliminate errors and all intended to write a great story. Perhaps I just communicated with those whose errors were missed and whose stories were not gripping.

Because I considered a fiction story "not gripping" does not mean it would not appeal to another reader. I am but one person with my own taste in books. I do know that it takes thousands of readers to take a book to the top.

I have found short stories by the people I know here as posted at Amazon Shorts particularly fun to read, and I have often said that E. Don Harpe's story, "The Killing Frost" in The World Outside The Window makes me cry just to think about it. Dick Stodghill is another story teller who brings me to tears and laughter with just a few written lines. His story about a boy's Christmas present built in the U.S. military basement by a German is another that makes me sob. Betty's stories about her barnyard animals are also delightful. I still identify with the old dog dumped out of the car and rescued by the barnyard animals.

I can go on about others that have charmed me and entertained me. I cannot say, however, that they, anymore than my very own Arirang: The Bamboo Connection, would have mass market appeal. That's what the query process and acquisitions editors at major publishers determine within the first few sentences, paragraphs or chapters, depending on who you ask.

Many of us turned to PA after those people decided we did not have mass market appeal. Me, I couldn't face any rejection and thought I'd be dead before I reached any major publisher; so, I ran straight to PA like a lamb to the slaughter, totally ignorant of the publishing scene but knowing if I didn't get the book published soon, either I'd be dead or a hurricane would blow away my research. I actually didn't know I had such a ball and chain for a publisher because all but the price went very well for me. Considering no other publisher might have picked up my work anyway, what did I lose? I gained more than I can ever describe here. Perhaps I'll write a book..........

An attempt was made at the Amazon Shorts web site to promote one author to the top by praising his writing by every Amazon Short writer and in every way possible, using all the Amazon.com author resources. I used to check his ranking at Amazon, and it never budged. I don't know if the promotion effort paid off or not. Nineteen of us put together the Anthology, The World Outside The Window, and some of the contributors had a measure of success and a following. I don't know the level of promotion for the anthology, but I ran into some snags because the stores said anthologies did not sell or draw people to readings or signings unless the authors or the editor were reknowned (like Chicken Soup for the Soul.)

As I run this forum in the background, I open the Tropicalia magazine from the Sunday News Press and it features on the front cover, Robert N. Macomber, a local author published by a Southwest Florida publisher, Pineapple Press. He publishes about a book a year, and he is promoting his series by taking readers out on his Chinese Junk for $75/head and including a copy of his latest book.

Promotion is everything.

My PA book had a small, but captive audience. It sold quite well online until the loss of the Amazon "buy" button, followed shortly after by the increase in price. Since then, sales have fallen off considerably. I had a second audience for a time, a far more liberal group than typical Audie Murphy fans, in the Joseph Campbell followers who learned about the book after it was featured in the Joseph Campbell newsletter and a review and prolonged discussion on the JFC.org message boards.

With both audiences, the readers did not care who wrote the book, or who published it. the first group wanted to read about Audie Murphy, the second about Joseph Campbell's concepts, so within those two small markets, it had its day.

PA was a good choice for that book. I doubt it will be for the projects I'm working on now. I'm trying to do as DT has suggested, do the best job I can, and see what happens when they are ready.

Ann

Ann, the buy button thing hurt me too. I was using all the Amazon.com tools and then the buy button thing made the books cut off look defective.

Dear DK,
Know that you are something above and beyond. Each of us here is not just the usual slop. We are something. Shelagh is so humble about her work, but she is great. There is no trash here. Every single author is worthy of public recognition. The thing is, it is so hard to do. It is like swimming up a stream where all the water looks clear but the undercurrent is powerful and your head sees where it is going but the legs cannot keep up with the current, so there you are floating backward and grasping onto small twigs.

Love,
Betty

dkchristi wrote:

I used to cry on the PAMB - "of 35,000 (now 50,000) writers, doesn't one of you know Oprah Winfry or have a relative that's an agent or a connection at MacMillan or a friend in Hollywood? Does someone know a reviewer of reknown hungry to review our 35,000 new books?" No one ever answered those posts. They probably kept their connections a close secret.

Speaking for myself, it's not a "secret" as much as it is inappropriate for me to ask such a favor of my editors, people I have a tenuous relationship with, meaning strictly business, and even that only as long as it goes well.

Just today I was approached by someone who asked for my "contacts" for a coworker who "wrote a poetry book and we need to see her get it published!" Arrgh. None of my pubs deal with poetry, and even if they did, I'm not going to pass on what may be "slop" to my editors. I'm not going to read and vet it myself nor prevail on my editors to pass it along to their contacts. They'll resent it and won't be as open to me when I have a more pressing favor (like for myself, lol) to ask for.

Ain't that the truth!

Very interestiing. I give my book away--to anyone I deem needs it.

Most writers cannot afford to do that. It is a viciuus circle.

It is disgusting to me that women are in the habit of attending Tupperware, basket and crystal parties--plunking down 20-30 bucks for a whatnot and never think that perhaps they could help an author.

Thank you, Betty for your exuberance. If everyone were, you--it would work.

The book I was doing with Lane had a chance-- He had an agent.

I do think connections help.

So far I just can't worry about book sales. The summer my book was released I was hospitalized for three days.

The funny thing is an acquaintance at church said, "Now you will be rich and famous."

My response, "I don't think so-- I am giving my proceeds away."

My proceeds are an embarassement. I think I will donate the $240.00 and call it good.

Thanks for talking me out of the idea.

I am trying only one thing right now, Internet eyeballs. My recent activity has given my site 5 times the hits and page requests, I will see what it leads to.