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 Climate Change

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:40 pm

Why isn't anyone talking about the stupid Republican representatives who proclaimed climate change a hoax?  Climate change is real.  Our lifestyles across the globe do make a difference.  Any idiot could have looked at the Los Angeles smog of the 70's and known that.  But then, the idiots didn't want to admit to climate change as that might cause the profit makers money, only pretend it did  not exist and call the scientists who know a bunch of "liberals." 

That was another propaganda ploy to make sure that industry went unfettered by any regulations - free to pollute - free to destroy the environment - all in the name of "jobs."

Well, pray tell, where are all those "jobs?"  They took them overseas where they could exploit other populations with filthy air, slave working conditions and high profits on the backs of the poor whose governments accept the bribes to enslave their people.

And the stockholders shout "hurray!" as their stocks go up on the backs of people in conditions we changed in this country.  We ended child labor (except for the poor migrant farmworker in the fields - some excuse of family farm laborers excluded), we have a shorter work week (though considerably longer than any other developed country in the world with less vacation time and worse benefits) and we implemented safety conditions that do not exist in the developing countries - I know; I lived there.  I know; I saw the government bribes. I imagine Abe knows too.

Propaganda is a big money art.  Say a lie often enough and it sounds like the truth.  Lots of money makes it possible to repeat often.  I just pity the poor dupes who are sucked in and whose lifestyles go down every day as they fall for the rhetoric and think anyone cares about their abortion stand or homophobia.  All that is just smoke screens while the real damage to our air, water, earth and lifestyle is being accomplished so the wealthy can buy another villa, put their children in private schools and the best universities, collect a dozen classic automobiles and more.  Their world is in a bubble far removed from the struggles of those who work as hard - for nearly nothing because they toil honestly and don't take from others to earn their keep.

Climate change is real.  They lied.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:23 pm

4/26/2014

                  You have to prove it to me...The earth has and always will go
                   through a climate change so until someone has proof, get back 
                   to me after the next election....

                                                          Cheers..Joe
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:28 pm

What Joe said.

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Betty Fasig
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:44 pm

DK,
I can see the climate change here in this lovely state of Florida.  Just because someone says it does not exist, does not make it true.  Look around and watch the migration of the birds, the lack of frogs and even the nasty love bug.  People like to be on a popular wagon.  May the Republican party rest in peace next election.
Love,
Betty
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:29 pm

There is natural climate change and there is enhanced change through the destruction of our air quality and the damages we do to the earth.  Scientific proof abounds but those who don't want to believe it can call the demise of ice for polar bear habitat and the things mentioned by Betty as natural phenomena if they wish to put their heads in the sand.  The truth is being measured daily at the north and south poles and other key places. 

That's okay.  Think it's political.  The "liberals" have nothing to gain by recognizing the inevitable.  The Republicans and big money corporations have plenty to gain.  Go figure.  I still know how to do mathematics and it adds up to big money against believing in climate change by industrial pollution and those who care about the citizens understand and believe the science.  It's simple math.

The ignorant have long not believed in science, preferring to believe in superstitions, myths and false religions.  They let their children die rather than give them vaccines and needed medicine.  The hate people who are different than them out of fear and clinging to outdated texts and religious documents that have no merit for today's world other than philosophical.

I am tired of the stupidity of people who claim to be educated.  Their stupidity is damaging humanity and the earth.  It's time someone came up with enough money to combat the lies, the fear mongering, the hate creation and the propaganda that is destroying the best of our world and leaving it with a two-class society ruled by profit and technology.

Well, I won't be alive in that world as it adapts to what the lies have wrought, so why should I care?  Really, those people in the future won't care either - they won't know any different.  They won't know about the little creatures who give Betty and I such joy.  They will have their virtual worlds instead.  Thus, they can kill the earth bit by bit and let the impoverished die.  

Science fiction is not such fiction after all.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:33 pm

I think global warming was a misnomer. It doesn't take into account that it can result in extremely cold winters as well. If we had been calling it climate change all along, maybe more people would be coming around.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:37 pm

I agree, Ann.  It is unnatural climate change as the result of what we are putting into the atmosphere around the world - not global warming, per se.  However, the oceans are warming, etc.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:54 pm

Climate change is a subject that needs to be discussed.  Many mocked the “Global Warming” signals when they experienced extreme cold.  Titles do make a difference as discussed on the thread about book titles - vs- content.  Climate Change is a term easily understood.  The reasons for climate change are numerous.  Some change is natural and expected, however much is man induced. 
I think there are separate elements involved that are lumped together.  There is the pollution that affects the health of people and the pollution that affects nature – our natural resources.  Big city smog is something that can be seen.  Interesting how people will go on the band wagon to eliminate cigarette smoking while at the same time ignore the more devastating carbon dioxide – greenhouse gases.  See: http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html
 
 
If one believes in science, it would seem that one would or should believe what science has to say about pollution and the effect on our planet.  Business and political interests cloud the issues.  If placing controls on pollution will affect profits, action is either delayed or most often ridiculed.  As DK mentioned, other countries are doing things to curb pollution.  We see in Europe many wind mills, solar fields and in some cases, even use of water/ocean power.  These sources are clean and free.  The cost to install them is expensive and that is used as a reason not to do it.  The availability of fossil fuels is controlled by consortiums. When they see that the demand may be in jeopardy, they reduce the prices.  That is detrimental to the push for alternate forms of energy.  Our society wants things now.  Waiting or patience is not acceptable.   Water is vital to our survival and yet we continue to pollute.  GMO’s are considered by many as bad while at the same time there are recognized benefits.  Do the benefits outweigh the bad?  Are we looking short or long term?  What about side effects?  When one uses a prescription drug, the package includes a list of possible side affects.  There are side affects with most everything we do whether that is in how we live or even in stating opinions.  It boils down to action and reaction.  If you make a comment on the religious thread, there will be a reaction.   
 
A friend of mine once handed me a book that he found interesting.  The first sentence read: “Life is difficult”.  I didn’t need to read the several hundred pages to tell me why life was difficult.  We recognize that “Life is difficult”.  Some of us believe that “God is Love”.  Complete agreement on any issue is not to be expected.  Whether we call it “Global Warming” or “Climate Change” we are basically talking about the same thing.  Whether we call a higher power God or a Universal Intelligence, it is the same source interpreted differently.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:56 pm

Why isn't anyone talking about the stupid Republican representatives who proclaimed climate change a hoax?

I am tired of the stupidity of people who claim to be educated.  Their stupidity is damaging humanity and the earth.  It's time someone came up with enough money to combat the lies, the fear mongering, the hate creation and the propaganda that is destroying the best of our world and leaving it with a two-class society ruled by profit and technology.



You know what I’m tired of…I’m tired of people that resort to name calling when trying to make their point.  

I really find it hard to believe that a political party in the United States of America can cause or stop Global Warming for the entire planet.  I find it hard to believe that because someone chooses to belong to a particular political Party they should be branded as ‘stupid’.

‘Civilized’ man has been screwing with this planet since God chose to put them on earth.  

‘Primitive’ man (the Bushman, Aborigine, Native American, Eskimo and the like) has always adapted their lifestyle to the environment that surrounded them.  They take nothing more than they need to exist.  They try to live with as little disturbance to their environment as possible.  

'Civilized' man has always attempted to adapt the environment that surrounds them to their lifestyle.  Then can’t understand why it bites them in the butt.  They level forests and complain about mudslides.  They level the Rain Forest and wonder why air quality is suffering.  They wipe out an entire speicies of animals in the name of sport.  

Every generation since the beginning of time has destroyed a piece of the planet, some worse than others.  All in the name of progress.  

NEWS FLASH…they weren’t all Republicans!

Does man impact the environment…Hell yes and has since the beginning of time.  Is Global Warming caused only by man…I doubt it.  There are arguments on both sides about just how much effect man has on the climate change.  However to say a few million people in a particular political party in the United States are responsible for causing or stopping it when there are BILLIONS of people in China, India and most Third world countries that could care less about pollution or the environment, just doesn’t work for me.  

I guess that makes me one of the stupid ones.  Of course I’ve never claimed to be the brightest bulb on the tree to begin with.

I admire and respect anyone that takes a stand for their beliefs or cause.  However my respect gets diminished when name calling and mudslinging are the dialogue of that stand. 

Just My Stupid Opinion - However I guess OPINIONS are like BUTTS, everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs is the best! jocolor  geek


Last edited by Don Stephens on Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:06 pm

4/27/2014

               I agree to a point, factories pollute the air. But where I come from on the
               East Coast we always had severe winters. Now here in New Mexico there
               are no factories, the air is clean ! I do understand the the native tribes 
               were awesome they respected Mother Earth, where the white man did
               things that were wrong, especially killing the buffalo....Who knows where
               we'll be 100 years from now ?

                                                         Cheers... Joe
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:38 am

You know what, if those ignorant dinosaurs had been a bit more savvy about climate change, they might still be around. I wonder if we would be here, though.

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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:41 am

Shelagh wrote:
You know what, if those ignorant dinosaurs had been a bit more savvy about climate change, they might still be around. I wonder if we would be here, though.

They were doomed when man diescovered fire! geek 
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:56 am

Speaking of climate chane, our high in SA today is expected to hit 96. At the beginning of April, it was still winter, and now, at the end, it's already summer.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:04 am

I stand corrected.  I certainly did not mean to insinuate that anyone on this forum was stupid.  That was an incorrect term, anyway, for those who called climate change a "hoax."  They were actually very astute, pragmatic and well-funded for their campaigns by speaking out against the scientific proof of a changing climate from the behavior of the human race.

They received a lot of support from those who would rather not believe in science and prefer myths, unable to draw the proper connections between the two. They were quite intelligent in their twisting of truth and garnering of support from the religious right who politicians have been twisting for many years to their own ends: unfettered profits with no concern for the future of mankind.

Why isn't anyone talking about water?  This precious resource is also being destroyed by humans - and its unlimited availability will depend on whether desalination becomes affordable without the use of fossil fuels to run it.  But I guess the dry wells and farm fields throughout the world are a figment of imagination and a little rain dance will bring the rains.  When they arrive, they flood because we have raped the land of lumber, turned rivers around, damned them up, anything to give us more power to run our industrial complex.

No, those who call climate change a hoax are not stupid.  They are brilliant.  They have figured out how to garner support for a lie and continue their profit, greed and lifestyles to the detriment of ordinary people.

Eventually, some learn the truth.  Then they take taxpayer dollars to rebuild the Florida Everglades.  Sorry; nature did it right the first time. Fixing it is an expense that will never return it to its former role in the ecological balance of the earth.  Adopting an acre of the rain forest is also too late.  Just look at a google scene.

I'm writing an article about elephants who are endangered because their habitat has been cut down and burned down to accommodate exploding populations.  Then they enter the cities to find food and are shot.

Ann talks about chaos leading to positive change. Sometimes. This time there's too much money in a global economy making sure that the elite continue to prosper and duping the rest of us into believing its for our own good.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:21 am

DK wrote:
Ann talks about chaos leading to positive change. Sometimes. This time there's too much money in a global economy making sure that the elite continue to prosper and duping the rest of us into believing its for our own good

It does come down to what we believe. Our "realty" is based on our beliefs, and those in power over us get to contruct it for us, so long as we give that power to them Just as we can be duped into believing that something is for our own good, we can also believe that these same forces are too powerful for us to overcome.

We each create our reality based on our beliefs, including a belief in there being no hope for change in the power structure.

Things are shifting there, though, as more and more people become aware of their own personal power.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:26 am

 heart The Social Construction of Reality
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Social Construction of Reality: A treatise in the sociology of knowledge
Peter L. Berger; Thomas Luckmann

The Social Construction of Reality is a book about the sociology of knowledge written by Peter L. Berger and Thomas Luckmann and published in 1966.

The work introduced the term social construction into the social sciences and was strongly influenced by the work of Alfred Schütz. The central concept of Social Construction of Reality is that persons and groups interacting in a social system create, over time, concepts or mental representations of each others actions, and that these concepts eventually become habituated into reciprocal roles played by the actors in relation to each other. When these roles are made available to other members of society to enter into and play out, the reciprocal interactions are said to be institutionalized. In the process of this institutionalization, meaning is embedded in society. Knowledge and people's conception (and belief) of what reality is becomes embedded in the institutional fabric of society. Reality is therefore said to be socially constructed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Social_Construction_of_Reality
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:03 am

:good post:DK
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:12 am

Now that’s making the point DK.   God Bless.

Does Climate Change and Global Warming concern me?  You bet it does.  However I am far more concerned with what’s happening in Somalia, the Middle East and the Ukraine.  People are dying there today.  Any one of those places could turn into World War III in a heartbeat  That threat is immediate!  Far fewer people are yelling about that than are screaming about Global Warming which might affect people’s lives a hundred years from now.  Politicians only want to talk about what’s going to get them reelected to their high paying, do nothing jobs…and I don’t care which party there are affiliated with they are ALL the same!

I’ve spent fifty-eight of my seventy-six years trying to do what’s right for my family and my country.  I've voted Democrate and Republican.  I've missed voting in one election...I was neck deep in the jungle at the time.  
Personally I think it’s time for the current generation to get their head out of the sand and off their collective a$$es and take a stand-one way or the other.  Whatever their stand...do something about it.  They need to quit standing around with their hand out, saying ME, ME, ME!  

As for me, I’m tired.  I’m retired and other than to make sure my Bride is safe, I’m just going to watch for awhile.

God Bless you all,
God Bless America.

Good night Mrs. Calabash wherever you are.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:49 am

You are right, Don.  There's much to be done in the world that needs to be removed from self-interested politicians and put in the hands of experts to find solutions rather than ways to profit themselves at the expense of others.

Profit, however, is a major motivator.  I think the emphasis on profit for so many years has created a generation of people who see the world through the profit motive.  The best is solutions that provide reasonable profits and benefits all around. That takes a rational person of integrity.  Where are they?

I recently interviewed - would you believe - a used car dealer.  The people that talked about him nearly worshiped him.  They said things I never heard associated with used car dealers.  He was fair, honest, a man of character who gave back to his community and shared his profits with his employees who stayed for years.  When they had needs, he helped them resolve them from mortgage to health issues.  He kept one employee on payroll recovering from a major accident and outfitted her house so when she felt better she could continue to work from home.

As far as his cars, he provided service and was honest about their price, their history and their value for the buyer.  He made a fair profit, often taking cars on consignment and helping the seller make a better profit than made as a trade.

There are still people of integrity.  This person was the generation after me.  So, on one of my cynical days, I meet a person of integrity and it helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:09 pm

Good posts Don & DK.  I don't think I can add too much to what was said.  Awareness is key to change.  I think that on this forum we discuss current issues of importance.  We may not have solutions, but it is important to be aware.  As Don said, there are people dying and continue to die while the focus is elsewhere.  The plight of the Palestinians continues.  The Syrian refugees continue to suffer.  In the Ukraine, people are torn between East and West.  Too often we refrain from discussing sensitive issues for fear of being branded in some way. 
I'm with Don.  I'm getting old and there is not too much I can do to solve these problems except to speak my mind and hope that with awareness, attention will be directed to resolving these problems.  Unfortunately, we tend to express a view trying not to offend someone.  I think it is time to speak our minds and say what needs to be said.  Often we know the problem and the cause yet are powerless to do anything. 
With my experience in the Middle East, I have become aware of a real problem that persists with no end in sight.  Many good intentioned people, including politicians have tried to resolve the problem, but money and power gets in the way.  When one expects support to get elected or re-elected, the politicians will side with the money source.
If you haven’t already noticed, take note that at each election, especially Presidential elections, the candidates meet with representatives of Israel and confirm their support.  It doesn’t matter if Israel is on the wrong path or is guilty of crimes, ignoring UN Resolutions, etc., it is money that talks.  Don mentions his experience in Southeast Asia and jungle warfare.  He has much experience with that.  Just read one of his Halo books and you will recognize his expertise and experience.  There are things that happen that is kept secret from the public.  The political agenda takes precedence. 
I have often placed myself in the shoes of a Palestinian and wondered how I would react.  The reaction would be similar to their past and current reaction.  When your homes have been confiscated or destroyed and your livelihood taken away, survival knows no bounds.  You fight to protect your family and regain what was taken.  Revenge is part of this scenario.  If your parents, brothers or sisters were killed, most would feel the need for justice, and if that was not forthcoming, you take matters into your own hands.  In some of Don’s books, revenge plays a major role in exacting justice.  
Taking sides is normal.  Most want to on the side of justice, of right, but often that side is not always right or just.  We support our country in time of war – right or wrong, and that’s when we fall into a trap.  Is our support just or patriotic?  The Vietnam War is an example of that.  Those who spoke out were branded.  During the Vietnam War, we heard the slogan, “Love it or Leave It”.   That was purely a patriotic slogan, not one of right or wrong.  We support Israel primarily from a religious viewpoint.  We don’t want to acknowledge that they may be wrong.  When there are discussions about the M.E. (Palestine – vs. - Israel) you may hear that comments expressed are not considered balanced.  To speak about a situation with a balanced view doesn’t get attention.  It is an attempt to ride the fence so as not to offend, and that can be the greatest offence that results in more people dying because we failed to face truth.  To get attention, one must often take an extreme view in an effort to bring balance.
In business we have short and long-term planning.  Our short-term problems may overshadow the long-term planning, as in global warming, and yet both are important.  What is the priority?  Current killing or long-term killing?   Many of us won’t be around for the long-term and therefore are more concerned with current safety.  Are we being selfish in that regard?  How much time do we allot to short and long term situations?  It is not one or the other, but both.  If we expect life to continue in the long-term, we must be concerned about the future even though we may not be part of it.  We have descendants who will be faced with the problems we chose to ignore.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:23 pm

Looking for a balanced solution is not about not wanting to offend.  It stems from a realization that the distinctions between right and wrong are not clear cut.  You simply cannot separate the "good guys" from the "bad guys"  It would be helpful if like were more like old movie westerns from the 40's and 50's, where you could tell by who rode a white horse and wore a white hat, but reality is not like that.  A better comparison might be to try and solve the dilemma of the old Appalachian struggles between the Hatfields and the McCoys.  Who was right and who was wrong was so intertangled that finding a solution simply was not possible.  The reality of that might become more clear if one were to place themselves in the shoes of both families, rather than of one or the other.  One might begin to see that taking sides, either way, only contributes to the stale-mate.  Our leaders are in a tough position, trying to get each side to put away the past and focus on the present.

During the Vietnam era,  there were many of those who stayed at home who were so opposed to our being there that they took their anger out on the returning veterans.  The most ironic thing about it, looking back, was that so many of those veterans had been drafted.  They didn't have much of a choice.  They were taught to follow orders - which, in itself, is not a bad thing.  Following orders was what they were supposed to be doing.  They did their assigned jobs, but when they came home, they were called down for it, no matter how heroic their behavior had been.  A lot of them were sons of WWII vets who had come home to victory parades, but the sons were somehow expected to hang their heads in shame for doing what they had been called out to do.  It is no wonder that they find such actions hard to forgive.  It was the first time that a substantial number of Americans found a voice to register dissent.  In the long term; expressing that voice was a good thing, in essence, but it was a terrible mistake to place so much of the blame for being there on the shoulders of the vets, rather than on the politicians and the generals who were directing the games with the movements and placements of the pawns.

Complicated issues - no simple black or white; no easy right or wrong.  Good and evil on both sides.

It was Daniel's question to Jake in "A time to Love":  "Who is right; who is wrong? And who gets to decide which is which?"  This is still a very important question, and one we all need to address and try to find a solution for.

Don't quite know what this has to do with climate change, but it seems to be where this thread is going at the moment.  Things shift and change.  Figuring out the positives in that reality is where we are today.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:22 pm

Ann says: "Looking for a balanced solution is not about not wanting to offend.  It stems from a realization that the distinctions between right and wrong are not clear cut.  You simply cannot separate the "good guys" from the "bad guys"

So if the distinction between right and wrong is not clear cut, is the solution to do nothing?
That is where the fence sitting or not wanting to offend comes into play.  Pressing for truth is not desired.  There are clear cut matters that are ignored.  One clear cut example is:  The Israelis are illegally occuping Palestinian territory.  Is that difficult to comprehend? 
When those being occupied resist, they are branded as terrorists. Freedom fighters are not terrorists. 
I think that a huge part of the problem is governed by religious beliefs.  In Lebanon, the good guys were considered by the west to be the Christians and the bad guys the Moslems.  In reality, the opposite was true.  I wonder if people are playing the religious card with their opinions on the Israel-Palestine issue. 
Wanting additional territory and building walls for security purposes is pure BS.  It is a land grab.  The solution can be simple.  Withdraw from the occupied territory and tear down the walls could lead to peace if peace is sought.  When the term "peace" is used to cloud the true objective, then peace will not happen.  It seems to me that the party doing the stealing are wearing the black hats.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:38 am

I can assure you that I, for one, am not "playing the religious card."  I have made my religious beliefs quite clear.  I am certainly not on the side of "big money."  I do have strong concerns about the situation.  I strongly believe, as I have stated before, that the only possible answer is a two-state compromise, yet neither side - neither - seems willing.  You seem intent on pressing this issue.  You clearly feel that your side is right and any other stand is wrong, including the belief that both parties need to accept that they are partly to blame and, if the situation is to be solved, both sides will have to give something.  I strongly believe that the violence needs to end, and again, that means both sides.  This is not a non-response.  This is a strong conviction.

Steven Covey writes in 7 Habits of Highly Effective People that there is a difference in one's "Circle of Concern" and "Circle of Influence."  The Middle East situation, for me personally, is a concern, but not an area where I have any direct influence.  I have been aware of the situation for most of my life.  I have studied the history of the area.  I am not ignorant of the issues.

You continue to press this discussion.  You do not seem willing to accept that others have a right to see the situation differently.  Anyone who is not for your side is against it, even those who refuse to choose sides.

I am done getting into useless discussions about this.  If you want to continue, you are going to have to play with yourself. If that makes me a socially inept fence sitter in your eyes, so be it. Your perspective is just that - it's about you, not me.

Peace.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:56 am

Climate change is this topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:46 am

The discussion posts are the same as the topic of climate change: they go round and round in circles, and have no outcomes. Everyone is allowed an opinion about whether global warming is true or not, and no one will be around long enough to be proved right or wrong.

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