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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:45 am

I differ, Shelagh.  I see scientific evidence that climate change is occurring and at a rate that is significant to the endangered flora and fauna on the earth - also man.  Since we can make a difference, each of us by being better stewards of this magnificent earth, it is important to spread the truth in the light of the many whose profits require funding the "Big Lie" that denies us our birthright to a planet of plenty.  This is not a circular argument; it is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of accepting scientific facts and measurements of discounting them to our detriment.

As far as the Middle East.  I am not experienced there; however, that is also not a circular argument.  Specific lands were provided to Israel as a place for Jewish populations to live in peace.  I do not know what those borders entailed, but they were exact.  If they have moved outside those borders and encroached on territories of other countries then they are no better than the Russians who have just done the same or the U.S. in our great western expansion.  It seems the difference lies in who is stealing the land.  There are international laws for settling land disputes.  They need to be followed.

Follow the money and find the power to persuade.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:25 am

DK.  You are correct concerning the M.E.  The crux of the problem is territorial expansion.  Settlements are one method used and that continues to create dissent and disrupts peace talks.  If settlements are not challenged, the land they occupy is then annexed.   There is a long range plan that has been implemented.  How do I know?  I only wish I could reveal the source of this information, however to do so would be life-threatening.  My name placed me in an inner-circle by accident where I learned much.  
 As for climate change, it doesn't take a genius or a scientist to verify this.  We see it happening every year.  One has only to remember the days of our youth to see the change.  Once upon a time the Farmer’s used the Farmer’s Almanac for planting.  That Almanac no longer exists as it can’t be relied upon.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:39 am

Expanding and shrinking borders are a new phenomenon? Expanding and shrinking polar caps only occurred in the last century?

Watch as 1000 years of European borders change (timelapse map) from Nick Mironenko on Vimeo.



Satellite data on ice-packs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25383373

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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:38 pm

The only country climate change would benefit is the UK....These Englanders want SUN. I think it is the Englanders who are making climate change. They do it at night when people are asleep.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:08 pm

It's irrelevant that borders changed in the past or the polar ice caps changed.  What is relevant is that all is changing now and is a threat to species we value.  How far do we want to go back?  Does that make us any less culpable for our profiteering and destruction of the universe.  I think not.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:04 pm

dkchristi wrote:
It's irrelevant that borders changed in the past or the polar ice caps changed.  What is relevant is that all is changing now and is a threat to species we value.  How far do we want to go back?  Does that make us any less culpable for our profiteering and destruction of the universe.  I think not.

Put your thinking cap on, DK. The Earth is approx 4.5 billion years old. The changes we are seeing are irrelevant to the Earth's evolution. If you want to look at climate change over just a few thousand years, study fashion throughout the ages. In periods of extreme cold, people wore layers and layers of clothing. In periods of warmth, they wore less layers and exposed greater areas of flesh.

Early nineteenth century:


Early fifteenth century:


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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:11 pm

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:
The only country climate change would benefit is the UK....These Englanders want SUN. I think it is the Englanders who are making climate change. They do it at night when people are asleep.

Shelagh need only smile and Great Britain has Sunshine! 
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:11 pm

The polar bear matters to me.  The disappearing frogs and bees matter.  The hungry animals that need the polar ice for their foraging habits matter.  They are "matters of consequence."  The air that human beings breathe matters.  The poisons  poured into the earth that poison water wells - today - matter.  The cracked earth that will not grow crops matters.  Water as a limited resource matters. 

They may not be as important as Don's example countries going to war; but when you consider that shortages lead to war, they gain in importance.  Hunger leads to war from an earth parched from changes in the atmosphere.

The temperatures overall, over the oceans and the land masses of the earth, are higher than they would be without our interference. Period.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 3:50 am

Don Stephens wrote:
Domenic Pappalardo wrote:
The only country climate change would benefit is the UK....These Englanders want SUN. I think it is the Englanders who are making climate change. They do it at night when people are asleep.

Shelagh need only smile and Great Britain has Sunshine! 

  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy 

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 4:13 am

dkchristi wrote:


The temperatures overall, over the oceans and the land masses of the earth, are higher than they would be without our interference. Period.

There is insufficient evidence to make this statement definitive. The son of one of my husband's colleagues has a Ph.D in meteorology. He spent some years in Canada doing research into the weather and shifting patterns of the Arctic circle. He said that the amount of data collected since records began is insufficient to determine if the changes in global climate, which have happened over a couple of decades, will remain permanent.

The Met Office says the same thing:

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/news/2014/uk-storms-and-floods

Before global warming/cooling, the great floods of 1947:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/25/weather.flooding1

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 6:47 am

It seems that talking about Climate Change is on par with talking about Religion or Politics.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 7:25 am

And it should not be.  Scientific evidence abounds including recent international reports.  However, there will always be those who choose to believe the few who have a vested financial, religious or political purpose to provide information that creates doubt.  You can rest assured, that those who do not accept the current scientific evidence that we are, in fact, changing the climate to our detriment and the detriment of the nature we love with our way of life have either a religious, profit, or political position that is supported by not facing reality.

Religion kept the world flat.  Religion at the Koreshan compound in Estero, Florida believed the universe was a giant globe in which we lived inside with the sun, moon and stars circling around us.  They were a very intellectually forward-thinking people, too.  They created a belief and then drew around them the evidence to support that belief.

By not believing in our role in climate change, we can continue to pollute, rape the earth, depend on fossil fuels, waste our water resources and generally continue on our current destructive path to the benefit of the few who gain financially and politically.  Our comfort zones vary, and change is threatening to many. 

The changing climate is not a belief.  It is a scientific fact supported by voluminous research and documentation worldwide.  A few scientists who believe otherwise provide a basis for discussion, but they are picking and choosing their information.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 7:56 am

Abe wrote:
It seems that talking about Climate Change is on par with talking about Religion or Politics.

Lots of either/or thinking going on lately.  Seems to me that the climate of this forum is changing and moving more in that direction.

Microcosm reflecting the macrocosm?

It's happening in lots of places apparently:

Quote :
www.schwarzassociates.com
Moving From Either/Or to Both/And Thinking

Try this quick experiment. Place your hand above your head as if you’re going to trace a circle on the ceiling with your index finger. Now, trace an imaginary circle in a clockwise direction. While continuing to trace the circle, slowly lower your arm so that your finger comes down to your eye level. Keep on lowering your arm until your finger is at your waist level. Now look down at the circle you’re tracing. What’s the direction? Counter-clockwise!

How can that be? The answer lies in one word: perspective. You continued to trace the circle in the same direction, but your perspective on the situation changed when you shifted from looking up to looking down at the circle.

What does this have to do with your leadership team? Team members often have different perspectives on the same situation. That’s natural because team members occupy different roles and therefore have access to different experiences and information. There’s a saying, “Where you stand depends on where you sit.” How we see things depends on the vantage point we’re looking from.

Unfortunately, when it’s time to make decisions, teams often have a hard time integrating different and seemingly opposite perspectives. They get stuck in either/or discussions. In an either/or discussion when people see things differently from you, you assume that either you’re right or they’re right, but you can’t both be right. So, everyone argues as hard as they can so their view will prevail. As a result, teams make decisions that ignore part some of their information or perspective. Because the decisions don’t reflect the complexity of the situation they’re trying to address, implementation suffers.

But as this simple experiment shows, saying that the circle is either moving clockwise or counterclockwise doesn’t represent the full situation. Teams that want to make good decisions move beyond taking one perspective. They apply both/and thinking. They ask the question “How do we make sense out of multiple perspectives that seem at odds with each other?” They figure out how people who have seemingly opposite facts both have valid information. By digging deeper to make sense out of what seems at odds, teams do the hard and work of problem solving.

Next time your team is thinking that only one perspective can be valid, remember that imaginary circle you drew.

Originally published March 2012
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 8:17 am

Here's another example, inspired by Ignatius Loyola:


Quote :
Both-And, Not Either-Or
by JIM MANNEY
Ignatius was always dealing with polarities: the divine and the human, the individual person and the corporate body, mission and community, spirit and law, charism and institution, the universal and the local, and so forth. The temptation or easy option, when faced with such polarities, is to choose one over the other. Such an either-or approach simplifies life, avoids uncertainty, and lessens stress. But it is flawed. It ignores the complexity of life even on a purely human level, and still more, the profound mystery of God’s plan for his creation.

Ignatius, by contrast, embraced a both-and approach. He acknowledged that he had to take with equal seriousness the divine and the human dimensions; the rights of the individual person and of the corporate body; the imperative of outgoing mission and the necessity of a nurturing community; the priority of spirit and the need of law to enshrine it; the spontaneity of charism and the continuity achieved through institution; the soaring universal vision and concrete local commitment; God speaking within each human heart and God speaking through the Church. If all this brought tension, then so be it!

Brian O’Leary, SJ

- See more at: http://www.ignatianspirituality.com/10254/both-and-not-either-or/#sthash.HDjGFS1l.dpuf
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 8:30 am

DK.  I agree with you.  Those opposed to controls for the reduction of pollution continue to say, "The school is still out on that."  Union of Concerned Scientists http://www.climatehotmap.org/about/global-warming-causes.html talk about Global Warming – the cause and effect.  Climate Change is the same issue.
 
There is evidence that our drinking water is affected by pollution and the side effects cause sickness in various forms.  That is not an opinion. 
The tendency has been and continues to be that action is taken only after there is unusual amount of sickness in a given area.  How many people will die before action is taken?    
Trees along highways are dying due to the poisoning caused by auto emissions.  Acid rain is another result that affects plants.  One can easily see the effects of oil spills, however the penetration of chemicals into the soil may not be visible and the damage is not always immediate.  When research is done, it is eventually traced to the source.  Attempting to fix a problem after the damage is done is a lack of foresight and carelessness.  People want a quick cure for sickness, but don’t want to recognize or work to prevent the cause.  So it is with Climate Change.  The change is slow, but it is real.  Al Gore was an advocate of Pollution Control and we know the battle he had.  The battle continues and the opposition is the same. 
 
As indicated earlier, this is a subject on par with religion.  Either you believe or you don’t.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 8:39 am

What constitutes "belief"?

Belief in what? Belief in whom?

My perspective on a higher power might be different from yours.  Are you saying that only one of us can be correct?  Can we not broaden our perspectives by sharing our points of view?

Trying to figure out who started an argument doesn't lead to a soution that works for the benefit of the whole.

Here's another article:


Quote :
www.thehighcalling.org
Moving From Either/Or to Both/And

I was festering one day over a work situation which I had instinctively interpreted as a zero sum game. By that, I mean there were two players and only two potential outcomes: a winner and a loser.

This win-lose attitude was naturally accompanied by a generous barrage of negative thoughts, driven by a desperate need for survival and self-preservation. I had to grab my piece of the pie, because, as everyone knows, there is only so much to go around.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how life is played out in the hyper-competitive workspace. Whether it's building market share, or seeking approval from a boss, or deciding how to spend the afternoon, we tend to see things in terms of limited choices and mutually exclusive options.

This two-dimensional thinking bleeds over into our personal lives as well, and even into our politics and theology. We like to organize everything into nice, neat categories: democrat or republican; tree-hugger or capitalist; jock or nerd; predestination or free will.

Scientists tell us that putting things into hard categories makes life easier, because it gives us a frame of reference for interpreting the world. It’s like telling ourselves the same old stories, until it’s all we see. But sometimes I wonder if all this dichotomous thinking is also a sign of immaturity, or stagnation, or spiritual laziness.

Maybe the hard-wired thinking is not so much to blame as is our culturally entrenched Western thought, with its linear thinking and process orientation and sharp corners and lines around everything. We are all educated from early childhood to be analysts, moving from A to B to C.

I heard about this philosophical concept called Antinomy, which says that two contradictory and opposing ideas can both be one hundred percent true and valid at the same time. It’s like holding on to a paradox, which requires a light grip,and a penchant for being comfortable with not knowing all the answers. Apparently the ancient Eastern cultures like the Bhuddists and Hindus find it much easier to practice this type of thing, to hold a belief in two contradictory thoughts.

Ironically, God created our entire universe filled with paradox. Take quantum mechanics, for instance, and the strange little photon, which makes up the beams of light that stream down upon us in all its glory. It has properties of both a wave and a particle, which any good scientist will tell you is impossible, because they are mutually exclusive. But there it is anyway, dancing and sparkling and doing its thing. God sure is tricky.

Have I been snookered by everything I ever learned into an either/or view on life, when there was an opportunity for both/and?

Rather than getting hung up on polarities and extremes, author Margaret Wheatley suggests, “Humility and curiosity shift us to center. Just by being curious, we move toward the middle ground, with its fertile promise of new ideas and new relationships.”

This is the type of thinking Harvard Business Professor Michael Porter is proposing with his “Shared Value” theory, an approach where both business and society come out ahead, rather than one succeeding at the expense of the other.

So, what if there really is enough pie to go around, for everyone, all the time? I could kick myself, because so often I approach life with a limited, constrained point of view, which is really just a mentality of depletion and impoverishment. That's no way to live.

What would happen if I opened my mind and spirit to the possibilities of greater, more creative alternatives? Well, for one thing, I would probably not be on a frantic rampage to outmaneuver a colleague, or weasel my way towards a more favorable position at someone else's expense.

I would pray more. I would take deep breaths, and think higher thoughts. I would look for a better outcome for everyone.

I’d start telling myself a different story.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 9:37 am

I don't believe that DK read the article put out by the Met Office. She thinks the doubters are the flat earth believers, whereas I think that those who believe in global warming are on a par with those who believe in crop circles. As Ann said, different strokes for different folks.

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 10:03 am

I think that air-conditioning should be banned and refrigeration should be a thing of the past. If you require air-conditioning or a household fridge, move to a cooler climate. The world is big enough; there's no need to live in warm climates that are uncomfortably hot for most of the year. Conversely, follow this advice:

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/climate/environment-cool-applicances-jun01/environment-cool-appliances.html

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 10:12 am

The Koreshans are extinct.  For all their brilliance, they added "celibacy" to their belief system and a vibrant society that contributed many modern conveniences and societal structures to the Estero community at large were not convincing enough to attract members who already had children.

Thus, they aged and died with no replacements schooled in their philosophy.  They revered the intelligence of women ahead of their time.  However, with no offspring, they could not pass on their earth in a globe beliefs and the remnants are almost laughable in their museum. 

I cannot repeat often enough that the Koreshans were well-educated, brilliant people, ahead of their time in their technology and science, agriculture and food preparation and more.  Yet, their world concept was just enough off to be laughable though they had all the science they could muster to support their belief in its validity.

I find NOAA an excellent source for sifting through the reality of climate change and crediting to nature what is natures and to the human race what they have wrought.  In deference to Ann's philosophical contributions to the discussion, I certainly accept the science that measures the contributions of each.  I won't attempt to convince anyone set in their belief that the world is unfolding as it should and man has no impact.  Their paradigm is fixed.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 10:43 am

Not fixed, DK, flexible. At the moment, the evidence is subjective. All the data can be interpreted according to one's particular beliefs. Eventually, the data will be conclusive. The apple will fall from the tree and everyone will say that they always knew that global warming existed (mixed metaphor). The laughable thing is that most people don't really understand gravity; they just know that if it is no longer attached to the tree, an apple falls to the ground. Same with climate change, most people don't understand the scientific causes, but they'll still say that they always knew that global warming existed!

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 10:46 am

I do believe that every new building built in states and countries in tropical sun zones should include roofing materials that use the sun for energy.  They are available, just buried in the universities somewhere or the patents are bought by those who don't want solar energy stepping in the way of the tremendous oil lobby.

I also believe wind should be harnessed - long done by those in the Netherlands and by blue water sailors.

New Zealand harnesses the thermal that escapes from the earth in some regions.  I was amazed when I was there in the 70's and they used solar power, wind power and thermal power.  Wow.

In the U.S., we should stop adding lanes to the roads and when they are so crowded no one moves they might take the rail.  Eventually, rails could be built down the middle and those cars you rent as needed in lots at major exits and entries.

Every neighborhood should have its own landfill and recycle place so people could see their waste, smell their waste and learn to be less wasteful for their own sanity.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 10:52 am

Solar energy:

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/green_business/archives/2008/05/sun_shades_cool.html


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 11:02 am

Is it not possible for humankind to have an influence on a world that is unfolding as it should? What about the harnessing of fire or electricity?

Science has made some very positive discoveries, and found ways to improve our lives considerably. for instance: sorry, Shelagh, but most people living in florida or South Texas wold be hard-pressed to give up our A/C. People have been known to die from the heat around here, when they don't have access to it. I don't know about just moving to cooler climates. There are an awful lot of people here, and not all that many places to go, or jobs to be had, etc.

I am not so concerned about how we got here as with what we might be able to do about it if we just put our heads together and tried to find solutions for the current problems. I don't see technology itself as the problem so much as the mentality that sacrifices arts for sciences in our schools - another either/or choice that we've been making, which has thrown us out of balance and seems to me to be due, at least in part, to an evaluation of masculine ideas and concerns over feminine. And that isn't an either/or thing either; it's just that we need to bring things back into alignment and balance.
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 11:11 am

There's the rub, Ann. One man's luxury is another man's necessity. Try persuading Americans to stop driving their cars. They like their guns, but they like their cars more. Telling China to get its act together and stop polluting the environment, while Americans drive around in gas guzzlers, is a tad ironic, don't you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Thu May 01, 2014 11:25 am

That's kind of another of those either/or thingies, Shelagh. Most of the people I know drive smaller cars with high gas mileage - me included. The actual numbers of people who might be considered conservative or progressive is about even, and there are many degrees of difference on both of those sides, so to ask me how Americans might think or respond puts me in an impossible place. I can't give you an answer.
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