I am a stupid writer!!!

It's true, evidently. You see, I'm being informed, in fact it's being bashed into my head that people write to sell. That's right, to make money. Yeah, well my books and their sales indicate that I must have missed class that semester. Anyway, I guess I write for myself. That is, I have to please myself first and then worry about the reader and the potential buyer. Now I do try to write stories with an interesting plot and strong characters and show don't tell and all those cute things that are supposed to "sell," but I guess I missed the class I'm not making many sells. Even though the sampling of reviews I've gotten from writers I admire like John Cassell and Jay Osman among others suggest that I did okay, at least to them. So hold the phone, I also missed the class where they said you have to promote the work. I hate doing that. I'm not at all comfortable with saying this is my creation and it is wonderful, a must read. But, I do like to write and I'll continue to do so, just for myself ... and whoever else may be interested. Kind of stupid, huh.

Charlie

A writer is compelled to write. Period. The rest is additional. A writer, writes.

Not stupid at all, in my opinion. It may depend on what you are seeking. Shelagh pointed out to me in another thread that a romance novel for a particular publisher had a certain formula that the book needed to follow. If I were to write for myself (which is how I write, also), this publisher most likely would not accept my work.

I think it goes back to what your purpose in writing is. I write because I cannot not write. And, writing is cathartic for me. If no one ever read another word that I wrote, I would still write. To me, that's being a writer in the purest sense of the word.

Charlie, when writers stop writing for themselves and write just what they think will sell, they have moved from the artist phase to commercial writer phase. The commercial writer phase does not mean that they will sell what they write, but they are trying to catch a wave. Usually the work that lasts is when a writer is writing for themselves and everyone else tries to figure out the meaning.

Promotion is a personal thing, some like it and some don't.

Charlie, I'm in that boat with you. I want people to like what I write
- nothing wrong with that, but I would feel like a prostitute if I
wrote only for what I thought would sell. I think a reader would see
through it anyway. If I am not passionate about what I am writing, I go
on to something else. Forcing a story and characters will not result in
a book worth reading (IMO).

Are we suppose to make money? I have always written poetry, short stories etc. When I actually completed Daddy's Game I would be a lier if I didn't say my dreams were high. This lasted until I received my first reject notice. The reason I write has always been for enjoyment. I like the creativity aspect of writing. This is why I write fiction, to create something from nothing. I would love to make money from this hobby but I wouldn't enjoy regimented writing where I had to meet deadlines etc. I admire those that can do this but it's not for me.

Charlie, you have to write what is true to yourself first, then worry about the selling later. You can't write something that is not in you to write to entertain formula.

If you write true, with persistence, the rest will come.

I don't promote either. My book is too expensive and not distributed. Without some kind of marketing backing you up, it's near impossible to sell other than to people you know.

And you're NOT stupid!!

Maybe I'm out of step here, but I never think of myself or enjoyment when writing. I write with two groups in mind, magazine editors and other mystery writers. I love deadlines because they make the adreniline flow. During my many years as a reporter I felt the greatest moments in life came when I had an hour's worth of writing to do and 20 minutes to get it done. I can't see much point in writing if nobody reads what you have written and you don't get paid for your work. If that were happening I'd try a different approach. I don't believe there is one iota of difference between commericial and artistic writing if there even are such things. Writing is a craft and the harder you work at it every day, the better the results. Hemingway said writing is the hardest job on earth. The enjoyment doesn't come from writing something, it comes from having written something.

I've written three novels. The first two are published. They were written to inform - having a purpose.
The last book, soon to be published, was written for fun. I have a feeling that this last book will have greater appeal since it is a romantic novel. Thought I'd better get this done while I still remember what romance was all about and not just dream the dream.
If I didn't think my books would sell, I wouldn't seek publication.

Stupid? No Charlie, you're not stupid, and I think you can see that you are in very good copany here.

Dick writes commercially and has for many many years. I could not write the way he does, and I doubt that many here have his talent for it. I wish I did have it, but since I don't, I just bumble along, hoping to improve, and by doing that, I learn a lot from him and all the others here.

Money? We are supposed to make money? Now you tell me!!

I'm with Mel in the promotion department. With any luck, a polished ms will emerge that will get the attention of a mainstream publisher. One who will price it competitively and help with promotion.

But I shall keep on keepin' on, no matter what!

Dick Said: The enjoyment doesn't come from writing something, it comes from having written something.

I suppose enjoyment/reasons etc. are like noses everyone has one and it is usually different. For me the enjoyment comes from the actual mechanics of writing something. The thought process the creativity. Once it is written I get more of a sense of satisfaction. My view may be different if I knew there was a paycheck waiting at the end.

Thank you for all the comments. As I read through each of your comments I realize that the purpose for writing is individual. Everyone has their own reason. Whatever your reason, as long as it is honorable, is a good reason. So keep writing and keep your passion alive.

Charlie

Charlie what would you do if you didn't write? If you found you couldn't stop yourself from writing, then it is to late for you; you've been bite by the writing bug. He's a nasty little blighter that carries a horrid desease that there is no cure for, Scribbilus Nonstoppus. You have my sympathy as a fellow sufferer.

Charlie,
First thing any aspiring writer learns is that not everyone is gonna be interested in what you write. Your immediate friends and family, who know you well, will be your biggest fans to begin with.

Then if other people outside your exclusive "members only club" become curious about your mind's journey and would like to join you in your secret quest, then they help themselves to your work. But it is very likely you will not know who they are or what they think of your stuff!

IMVHO Mr. Moore, you should pay no attention to folks who tell you that people [only] write to sell. Unless, of course, that is your goal.

Writing can be a hobby or an outlet or a career. Many many factors contribute to the definition, such as talent, persistence, luck, or level of talent for example. The same applies to any other "creative talent" such as playing an instrument, singing, or painting. I am sure most of us sing in the shower or our cars, but I am equally sure most of us would not make it past Simon (myself included!). Along with these factors are the ranking of importance that you mention: "I have to please myself first and then worry about the reader and the potential buyer."

I have seen so many discussions, many of which ended in flame wars, as to what the definition of a writer is. I still don't know. What I do know is that the definition can be different for anyone, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Some folks think supermodels need to eat, others think they are hot the way they are!

Writing is fun, but when you write with the goal of being published it becomes work. Just as singing in the shower is fun, but if you want to be signed by a record label it becomes work. And if you want to write for a living, it is even more work. In this case though it is work that you enjoy, so that makes it less like work and more like fun.

As for me, I am with Dick on this one. Life is short and there is so much to do. I like to write, I wouldn't be getting my first novel published with the goal of being self-sustaining if I didn't. But honestly, it's a lot of work and I would not be putting so much time into it if I didn't hope to make money on it. And yes, I do consider the reader because I want my book to sell. It never crosses my mind that I am writing to please myself because that is not how my mind works. Just as when I make dinner for my friends I do not plan the menu with only my own tastes in mind, I plan it to please them. And if there happens to be mashed potatoes on the menu, bonus for me! What would be the point of spending hours creating a culinary feast that only I would enjoy?

I do however consider myself lucky in that the genre in which I write is one I enjoy. I want to scare the pants off my readers the way Stephen King, Dean Koontz, or Whitley Strieber does. And because writing well enough to be successful is a lot of work, I'm with Dick in not seeing much point in writing if nobody reads what you have written and you don't get paid for your work. It is a full time job and I have bills to pay! But that is just me, and I have no issue with anyone who feels otherwise. I love to tell stories, but I don't need to agonize over a piece of paper to do that, just ask my nieces and nephews, so if the translation of my stories to paper is not viable, I will not stop telling stories.

I must also agree with Dick re the difference between commericial and artistic writing. As with any skill, writing is indeed a craft and the harder you work at it every day, the better the results, and some folks will achieve better results than others. I am not sure what is meant by 'artistic writing', though, so maybe I am not fully understanding the point. I read for entertainment, not to ascertain some deeper meaning planted by the author, but that is me. Likewise I do not feel that I am writing to 'catch a wave', I am writing to entertain and by extension makes lots of sales! (Mr. Pollard, I am not picking on you, just not totally agreeing if I am understanding what you are saying. )

As for promotion, my agent tells me that the publisher who picks up my book will do a lot of that for me. I will, however, be expected to contribute in some way yet to be defined. I will do so happily because I want to be a success.

Just my humble two cents . . .

Good answers everyone. And I hope Charlie knows by now he is one smart man.

Carol

I don't write fiction or even creative nonfiction, so I can't relate to the feeling of being drawn to writing, of it being something I have to do. I don't even keep a diary or journal.

I seek niches in the hopes of making money filling them, and while I like writing, if I didn't expect eventual payment, I wouldn't do it. My books require too much research, work and expense for me to do them for fun or "on spec," as the homebuilders say. In fact, I've never even written any without having a contract in hand first.

Charlie

You are not a stupid anything. You are a thinking man and a writer with heart.

I miss your posts. It's good to hear from you again.

Ann

Dick wrote: I can't see much point in writing if nobody reads what you have written and you don't get paid for your work.

I concur.

I don't understand the notion of writing for ones self. I can't imagine being my own audience--reading my own work for pleasure.

Writing is hard work. I'd rather pay the mortgage than sit in the shade and admire my words.

W. Lane Rogers wrote:

Dick wrote: I can't see much point in writing if nobody reads what you have written and you don't get paid for your work.
I concur.
I don't understand the notion of writing for ones self. I can't imagine being my own audience--reading my own work for pleasure.
Writing is hard work. I'd rather pay the mortgage than sit in the shade and admire my words.

Lane & Dick: Please do not take offense at what I am going to post because I really do not mean to offend you or Dick. You and Dick write as a means of support for yourself and your family. It easy to understand why you commented or feel the way you do. I think it is a little insulting to me and the other authors to imply we only write to sit in the shade and admire our work to an audience of one. This sounds condescending and to be honest it's an assanine statement for you to make. I do not write nor do I need to write as a means of support. Writing is secondary and viewed by me as a hobby which I enjoy persuing. It is a shame you cannot find enjoyment from the creativity aspect of writing. I have written many things that have never went further than the notebook they are kept in. As I said in the earlier post, This is why I enjoy writing fiction. To create a world/story from nothing but your imagination is an art. My books have sold, not on the best sellers list but sold none the less. Of course when I pick up a newspaper I tend to pass over the columnists writngs as well, for the most part they have been boring and one sided at best.

I read romance novels by Grace Livingston Hill as a teenager and decided that some day I would write like her. I found radio and loved announcing and writing news releases. I found education and loved writing curriculum. I found grants and hated writing them but loved the pay and the adrenalin rush from meeting obnoxious timelines with pieces from everywhere. I discovered travel and new ways of seeing life and I started writing for me. I earned my living with grant writing and editing with a splash of technical writing and journal articles. I kept writing for me, on napkins, on backs of paper and in letters home. That proverbial "someone" said I should put some of what I lived and learned and wrote in a book. I did that. Along the way, I wrote a few short stories and I put those at Amazon Shorts. I keep writing. I learn a little more about the difficulties but I keep writing. I had a muse for a long time that kept my imagination ripe with ideas, and that inspiration dissipated gradually; so, it's more of a challenge now. I keep writing. I like to hold the print book in my hands, see the digital online, stack the royalty statement with the income slips at tax time. It feels a little like the teenager's dream becoming a reality, bit by bit, story by story, word by word.

Your nonoffensive post, Nutter, fails to acknowledge the theme, stated twice, by the thread's originator:

Anyway, I guess I write for myself.

It is not my intention to insult anyone; merely to express a legitimate opinion.

Incidentally, Nutter, I find a good deal of pleasure in what you call the "creativity aspect of writing." Nevertheless, taking pleasure in creativity does not diminish the necessity of being paid for my work.

I enjoy reading all kinds of things, both commercial as well as non-commercial.

Sometimes I find the non-commercial stuff more appealing, because it comes straight from the writer's heart and is not motivated by any desire to conform to what a commercial audience demands.

I also find the commercial stuff to be a certain kind of fake and glamor which conforms to ideals that are sometimes very hard to relate to...

Nutter and Ahad - Neither Lane nor I meant we lacked respect for you or your views on writing. Commercial writing, as you put it, is every bit as creative as any other writing. To make it appear that writing as a professional somehow diminishes your work is a little over the top. As for writing coming from the heart, I'm not even sure what that means. A professional writer does the very best he can on every thing he writes. That, it would seem, must come from the mind as the heart does little more than beat. But wherever a person chooses to feel it comes from, the final test of the written word is whether it is good enough to sell. Selling his material should be the goal of every writer. Otherwise, who will read it? I find it hard to believe when someone says they don't care if anyone reads what they have writtien or not.

Dick,
Don't get me wrong. Without aiming for a commercial market for your book, why bother publishing it?

You could just as easily go down to a local printer and get a handful of copies printed out to give to all your friends and family and that's the end of that.

So yes, everyone publishes with a view to selling the damn things. Saying that, I have a certain kind of weird admiration for people who keep churning stuff out, book after book, without a care in the world about whether it sells or not. I couldn't do that.