The Sob Story bar

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

I have an idea Alice,
Why don’t those in the click leave the chat room, and start their own thread for the click only. There the members of the click could complain about all the stuff wrong in the world that has to be changes, and they could talk about how bad life has treated them, sob on each others shoulder, compare their medical problems, and give an award to the member who has the most problems. You guys could yada, yada all day 24/7 without ass holes like me saying stuff you guys don’t want to hear. That way maybe those who join the forum could use the chat room in safety. You guys would be happy as ducks in a pond, talking about all your negative stuff without having some jerk shine a light at the other end of the tunnel.

So you want the Chat room for yourself and newcomers only?

alice wrote:

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

I have an idea Alice,
Why don’t those in the click leave the chat room, and start their own thread for the click only. There the members of the click could complain about all the stuff wrong in the world that has to be changes, and they could talk about how bad life has treated them, sob on each others shoulder, compare their medical problems, and give an award to the member who has the most problems. You guys could yada, yada all day 24/7 without ass holes like me saying stuff you guys don’t want to hear. That way maybe those who join the forum could use the chat room in safety. You guys would be happy as ducks in a pond, talking about all your negative stuff without having some jerk shine a light at the other end of the tunnel.

So you want the Chat room for yourself and newcomers only?

That is not what I suggested. The little click has dominated the forum for a long time. Writers join, and never come back.  Don’t you think this forum deserves to grow?  This is a good forum, and shelagh has worked hard building it. She has stood up against larger forums who have tried to put her efforts down. I’m not saying the click should not have the right to post what they want. All I’m suggesting is do it in a thread just for the type of dialogue you guys want to have. Most writers like a small forum. It give them a better chance of having comments on their work so they can improve.  It is not fair what you guys have been doing.
If one of you gets nasty, the rest of you join in and try to flame. That is child stuff. The chat room is right at the top of all other subjects. It is the first thing a new person opens…and what do they see?  Bully stuff. The conversation is always on the negative., and if anyone disagrees  the rest of you jump on them. When I post work I ask Shelagh to comment because the click won’t, and the new people stay silent. What you guys are doing is wrong. You follow one person like she is the big leader of your gang. You people need to grow up. I know you came on the forum to improve your writing…what happened? Did you guys turn off the main road and get lost in the woods?  How many times do you think someone wants to hear how sick somebody is, or how bad of a childhood they had, and how this, and that in the world has to be changed, over, and over, and over.
I’m here as a writer. I want to become a better writer…nobody will unless some of the silent members have a reason to post. You guys are blocking the drain pipe. All I’m suggesting is you do in in your own thread…just for the click.

I, along with a handful of the people still posting here, was among the first members of this forum. I came along during the time that I was blasting people on some other forums about Publish America, who I still believe lived up to the stipulations of their contracts with me. I once made many long, well reasoned posts (or so I thought) and found that some agreed with me and some didn't. Most here voiced their opinion that I didn't like it when people disagreed with me, but in truth, that's not really so. People don't agree with each other, and it's that reason alone that any progress is ever made, any new product or invention discovered, and I've always understood that quite well. I do have some very strong (VERY STRONG) opinions about certain topics, and in all honestly I've never understood why some people seem to have very little common sense about some things.

For several years I enjoyed posting here, and came to be quite friendly (internet friendly that is) with some of the people. I liked Dick for instance, but didn't care much for Carol. I had my reasons for both choices, and while most agreed about Dick, they certainly didn't like me voicing my opinion of how I thought Carol saw the world. That's fine, and I understand it, but I wouldn't change it, even if I could.


I was also quite vocal at times about how I never cared for the extremely high handed attitude that I believed (and still do) Shelagh had, and a lot of people here voiced their displeasure that I, or anyone, would ever find fault with anything she did, and while I pointed out some very obvious things (which I don't remember now) most were not able to see the things she did as I did. They loved her, I tolerated her because there were some people posting here that I enjoyed.


I left a couple of times due to what I thought were good reasons, and came back each time simply because Alice asked me to. I like Alice, quite a bit actually, and I love her Peas book. I also like DK and Abe, and Betty Fasig is one of my favorite people on any forum. I believe she is one of the more talented of us, and have never understood why her Woofer books are not best sellers. I get along with Ann, although it's obvious I don't think she is as smart as she thinks she is, but that's ok, because I suppose the feeling is mutual. I've never been fond of anyone who has to post credentials over and over to remind us how much they think of themselves, but I really don't think Ann realizes she does this, or if she does, I don't think she believes anyone should be bothered by it.


I come back now and again, mostly to see if there is anything new going on, and sadly I seldom find anything other than the same old thing. This isn't bad, of course, it's a sign of comfort, of people who are accustomed to each other, and can almost predict what the others will say. I don't post much anymore, because there is almost never a topic that is of a lot of interest to me. Actually, some of the are interesting, but knowing the people here, I see no reason for me to post opposing views and upset them. It just isn't worth it anymore.


I kind of agree that the handful of old timers are not really open to all newcomers, but that's also the way of things, and even though the growth of the forum has slowed, there are still some very talented people here, who make thoughtful and intelligent posts.

I went through the days of the Millers and the Turkels(?) and lost some friends when I took a stand on another forum. I will always take the side of the people I like, and if you say something to them I think is out of line, you can be sure you'll have me replying to you. Sometimes it used to get a little out of hand, because sometimes I post before I think things out. I don't do that as often, but it's a habit that still lingers.


The funny thing is, there are a few of you who will read what I post and actually be glad that I took the time to post anything. Others won't care as much, and still others won't care at all. That's also fine, because that's the way I am about everyone else.

I don't really know any of you personally, but I do care for some of you. Others I can take or leave, and still others I'd just as soon leave. I'm still just me, with all my many flaws, and I can't apologize for that.


I don't write as much as I did a few years ago, I'm still not trying to capture the all American novel, and even though I don't make much money with what I do write, I still don't think I have the time to go through the trial and error method of attaining an agent or a major publisher. I'm good with that, and I'm still comfortable with just being myself. I hope to remain that way for the rest of my days, and I hope that each of you have reached that same place.


As always, I've been mostly rambling on, and as most of you will not read the entire post, or care about it anyway, (which I understand) I'll say goodnight.

Hello Don,
It's good to read your writing again...it is always, honest, fresh, and to the point. I hope you stay around. I leave the forum off, and on too. When I'm doing a rewrite I stay away most of the time. I like to have Shelagh look  my work over. I trust her suggestions. What I find funny, things I have suggested to writers on other forums, I seem to overlook on my own work.  She see it.
How have you been? Are things okay? Like you I stop writing from time to time, but whatever it is always pulls me back. There have been many people join the forum, but I never see them post, or comment. I think the click thing, and the same old junk you talked about every day keeps them away. Why not post some of your work, and help make this look like a writers forum again. I'm going to post some more stuff, maybe you will give me comment...I'm still learning how to write. I could use some help. You sure everthing is oaky? I get the feeling something is going on.
Domenic

Glad to see your post, Don.  Good insights as usual. 
it is comforting when one realizes that they are not alone with their thoughts.  The Chatter box helps define how people think and feel.  It is said that "nice guys finish last".  There is some merit in that.  The effort to appease eventually reaches a breaking point and then the shit hits the fan. 
Your input is important and valued, Don.

E. Don Harpe wrote:

The funny thing is, there are a few of you who will read what I post and actually be glad that I took the time to post anything. Others won't care as much, and still others won't care at all. That's also fine, because that's the way I am about everyone else.

I'm still reading your posts, E. Don ...

E. Don Harpe wrote:

As always, I've been mostly rambling on, and as most of you will not read the entire post, or care about it anyway, (which I understand) I'll say goodnight.

... right to the end. Hope you had a good night and congratulations on your 49th wedding anniversary!

Domenic,

There are other writing forums that work harder to keep discussions lively, have more moderators and more active members than this forum. You can join them. I'll give you a list if you need one.

The publishing world is changing rapidly. Forums such as this are not meeting the demands of the new breed of writers. Blogs are becoming the best way for writers to interact with their readers. They receive feedback that is useful and relevant to the genre they write in, and the reader audience they are trying to increase. If they can incorporate suggestions from fans of their writing into their WIPs, they can attract more readers of the same ilk.

The forum has served its purpose and there's no urgency to do anything to promote it, or increase/change the activity of the remaining members.

E. Don Harpe wrote:

I, along with a handful of the people still posting here, was among the first members of this forum. I came along during the time that I was blasting people on some other forums about Publish America, who I still believe lived up to the stipulations of their contracts with me.

I remember. You and I were generally in agreement in those days, and seemed to have a strong mutual respect. I certainly felt so where you were concerned. I've never really understood what I did that changed things. We shared similar political views as well.

I do remember the first time I noticed that change. You took offense when I said I had been relieved to learn that my ancestors had not been slave owners. Carol and I had been discussing our Missouri ancestors, and the fact that two of them had been in the same CW battle, on opposite sides, hers, the Union and mine the Confederacy. I still wonder why you saw what I said as a problem.

Quote :

I once made many long, well reasoned posts (or so I thought) and found that some agreed with me and some didn't. Most here voiced their opinion that I didn't like it when people disagreed with me, but in truth, that's not really so. People don't agree with each other, and it's that reason alone that any progress is ever made, any new product or invention discovered, and I've always understood that quite well. I do have some very strong (VERY STRONG) opinions about certain topics, and in all honestly I've never understood why some people seem to have very little common sense about some things.

You did make many long and well reasoned posts. I'm pleased to hear that you didn't mind when people disagreed with you. That was not the impression I got at the time.

Quote :

For several years I enjoyed posting here, and came to be quite friendly (internet friendly that is) with some of the people. I liked Dick for instance, but didn't care much for Carol. I had my reasons for both choices, and while most agreed about Dick, they certainly didn't like me voicing my opinion of how I thought Carol saw the world. That's fine, and I understand it, but I wouldn't change it, even if I could.

I remember the things you said to Carol. At the time, it seemed to me that there was a difference between disagreeing with the way people saw the world and personally telling them that they were deluding themselves.

Quote :

I was also quite vocal at times about how I never cared for the extremely high handed attitude that I believed (and still do) Shelagh had, and a lot of people here voiced their displeasure that I, or anyone, would ever find fault with anything she did, and while I pointed out some very obvious things (which I don't remember now) most were not able to see the things she did as I did. They loved her, I tolerated her because there were some people posting here that I enjoyed.

I remember that, too. I also remember the circumstances at the time. Shelagh was coming under some pretty intense personal attacks. She was defending, not only herself, but the majority of the rest of us. It was not about you, but you seemed to be taking it personally.

Quote :

I left a couple of times due to what I thought were good reasons, and came back each time simply because Alice asked me to. I like Alice, quite a bit actually, and I love her Peas book. I also like DK and Abe, and Betty Fasig is one of my favorite people on any forum. I believe she is one of the more talented of us, and have never understood why her Woofer books are not best sellers.

Agreed, 100%

Quote :

I get along with Ann, although it's obvious I don't think she is as smart as she thinks she is, but that's ok, because I suppose the feeling is mutual. I've never been fond of anyone who has to post credentials over and over to remind us how much they think of themselves, but I really don't think Ann realizes she does this, or if she does, I don't think she believes anyone should be bothered by it.

Damned with faint praise?

When I am asked where do I get off thinking my opinion is valid, I sometimes point out my "creds," to borrow a term from LC.

So far you have listed three women who have had the audacity to call you on something when they disagreed with you. And yes, at the moment, I, too, am getting personal. You made your feeling pretty clear, and in a way that most would consider quite personal, for example:

E Don wrote:

Fri Aug 30, 2013
At the risk of being contrary to the others, I don't think Ann's post made a lot of sense. It sounds good, but then again, so do a lot of things, until you look at them a little closer. Ann is quite good at those kind of posts, and as long as she has the agreement of the rest of you, she will continue to have the idea that what she says hold more weight than what the rest of us say. Sorry, it's just her opinion, just as what we post is ours. It's silly at best to think that we don't need a President that will take into account the best interests of the American working class. Regardless of whom we vote for, once they get into the White House we have no responsibility for their actions. All we have a responsibility for is to try and make a judgment call about who will handle the job best. Once they are in office. our part is over. Unless you are one of those who think your voice makes a difference. I've finally come to the conclusion that nobodies voice means anything, unless you have millions of dollars you are willing to hand over to get your voice heard, and your wishes fulfilled.

All three of the names you mentioned happen to be women. I do seem to recall one man, at least, that you took issue with. It was the one you continually referred to as "Pappalardass."

As I said, I didn't get why you changed your perspective of me. I see again what you have written and are still writing. It feels personal. I have always respected you and your positions, even when I expressed disagreement with parts of them. You have a strong personality and you seem to see your perspectives as being a bit more valid that others, but there is noting wrong with that, except when you lose it, which you sometimes do.

But you are no different from the rest of us, and you posts are missed.

Several years ago, back in the days when many more members were active, and many of the posts were about writing, I wrote one of those long posts that I sometimes do, one called The Process of Writing.  Shelagh liked it well enough to post it as a sticky at the top of the "Writer's Cafe," one of those sections where writers could write about writing.  It is still there.  This passage from it might be helpful to those of you who would like to see more of, and participate in, activities about improving their craft, and how to go about helping those who are asking for help:

Quote :

At some point in the process, we individually reach our personal point where our writing becomes more reader-directed than writer-directed.  The more we move into that “reader-directed” phase, the more we probably ought to muster the courage to share and ask for suggestions. This step is easier for some writers than it is for others. Our first readers function a bit like teachers.

And here, I’d like to shift gears a little, and focus on that function of being an early reader of a fellow writer's work. As a classroom teacher, I learned, both from experience and training, that it is important to the writer’s finished product, that we give our advice and suggestions based on (a) where the writer is in the process, and that we focus, first, on (b) what we see as being positive in the writing. After we have encouraged the writer by pointing out the really good stuff, we can be helpful by giving our impression as a reader, of what might need more clarification, or be more interesting if it were presented in a different manner. And we need to be clear in our own minds, when we offer advice that involves making changes, that we have not allowed our own egos to get in the way.

Diversity, we are beginning to learn, is a good thing. Writers have diverse styles, too. The more fluent writers can often be recognized by their unique style. It is not our job as readers to attempt to impose our style onto another’s writing.

Reaching that point of sharing our drafts for advice does require courage.  When we take that step, we want to know that the reader will have the best interests of our budding creation at heart.  That is why we need to tread carefully.  When members of a group can feel confident that their work will be appraised in a positive way (and positive can refer to the way changes are suggested) they will be more inclined to post them.

Here is an example from the early days of the WIP.   It gets off on a tangent a little at the end, but even there it can serve as a helpful example. Since the WIP is a private thread, the link should only work for members.  Even so, I have chosen a thread where it is my own writing being critiqued, rather than use someone else's without permission.

www.publishedauthors.org/t2694-ailcy-s-legacy-chapter-2-missouri-1836[/b]

Ann, I'll try to address the points you made, and in doing so, maybe I can be a bit more specific. I've not been personal at all on this board, and I can guarantee you that when, or if, I actually did get personal, you'd not have a problem recognizing it.

I always thought Carol had super great intentions, but she always came across as being very well off, and I never thought she could even come close to understanding what true poor people have to live with every day. She had never seen it in her own life, and until you do, you can't really know how some people live. When I posted that however, some here took exception to, because, I think, everyone had a problem seeing past Carol's sweetness and light. I don't disagree that she was a good person, a very good one, I just disagreed that she was capable of really seeing the side of life she was determined to post about.

Shelagh and I understand each other I think, and I also think we're good with it. Shelagh is very good at what she does, it's just that I have never believed in some of her 'my way of the highway" way of thinking. She knows this, and in fact we've even joked about it from time to time. Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't sit well with me.

And you are also a talented writer, although a bit too vanilla for my tastes. I don't really have a problem with what you post, only in the manner in which you come across, at least to me, in thinking that because of your years of teaching, the rest of us have to accept what you say as gospel truth. I have questioned every single teacher I ever had, not because I thought they were wrong, but because I sometimes think other people are right also. However, in the classroom, there is only one way, and that is the teacher's way. I didn't think then, and I still don't, that a public forum is quite the same as a classroom, and I didn't think you could distinguish between the two. As I said, had it been personal, you would have had no trouble recognizing it.

There is also the fact that even now you seem to think I make a distinction between men and women, and somehow that I only find fault with the female persons posting. True, I had a few differences of opinion with some of the ladies here, but I also had many, much more "personal" exchanges between the Millers, the Turkels, and some of the others who were posting on the Publish America boards or that other one that some many PA bashers loved so well. I tend to disagree with a person because of what they say, hence the back and forth comments to Domenic that were made, and could care less what gender a person is. The fact that he was the only one I ever called a "lardass" should tell you something. From what I can tell, that person has come a long way with his writing, but I think you allow him to bait you way too much.

I also had some heated "personal" exchanges with that one guy on PA, the one who claimed to have had so many positions, and to be an authority on each of them. I once told him he'd have to be 150 years old to have done half the things he claimed to have done. Funny, now I can't even remember his name.

I have come to talk quite frequently with LC on Facebook, and she and I have developed a kind of mutual get alongness that we both enjoy. We don't agree on a lot of things, mostly political, but we share a common bond in many others. I still feel she should try writing fiction, because it is an entirely different animal from what she is accustomed to, but she is in fact very good as what she does. And quite intelligent also.

On that other board Meloni and I had a fearsome feud which did in fact lead to both of us becoming personal at times. We also re-connected on Facebook, and she has become one of my closest online friends. It's a joy to see her bite into something, and she has a wonderful way of saying things which I respect and love to read.

As always, I try to be respectful when I can, and not so much when I lose confidence in the other person's ability to think and post logically. Not that I am always logical, or correct, but a lot of the time at least I know it. Some folks just don't seem to have a clue.

For me, this is early in the morning, and I'm never at my best at this time of day. Lately I seem to find that I'm never at my best much of the time. Of course, that's never stopped me before, so why change now? 

Have a great day, everyone.

E. Don Harpe wrote:

Shelagh and I understand each other I think, and I also think we're good with it. Shelagh is very good at what she does, it's just that I have never believed in some of her 'my way of the highway" way of thinking. She knows this, and in fact we've even joked about it from time to time. Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't sit well with me.

You can't make an omelette without cracking eggs, and this forum does get scrambled at times. You can trust my mum (mom), she's a nicer person than me and much more loved too. When family have said that they've unwittingly offended me, she's always reassured them: "Shelagh doesn't bear a grudge."

It isn't so much that I don't bear a grudge, I don't talk on board slights and insults. Too much baggage for me. Anyway, I like to be upfront and say things as I see them, so I offend as many people as offend me. I just hope they take the same view that I do: life's too short.

Just to share our private joke:

Thank you, E. Don, for the clarifications.

Maybe, sometime, we should each define our own perceptions of "personal," so that we don't get confused about it.

As to my having been a teacher, it definitely has had an effect on the way I speak and write today, but I don't think that it is a case of still being in the classroom. Even if it were, I didn't ever assume that what I said in the classroom ought to be blindly accepted, and in fact, encouraged questions. In my class, you would have been one of the "pets." I have never believed that teachers are not still learners, and I taught from that perspective. My classrooms were known to be "open." Is it possible that you just might be making assumptions based on your own perception of teachers, based on your past experiences?

I have had teacher friends, especially English teacher friends, who went out of their way to not let new acquaintances know what they did for a living. I get that. When someone new would ask me what I "did," and I replied honestly, their attitudes would invariably change, and they would stiffen up, just a little, and become more guarded, or sometimes they would even become hostile, or even worse, completely silent.

I think much of that stems from cultural attitudes toward the profession, but have written and talked about that at length in other places. Sometime it might be fun to share ideas about what makes a positive learning environment and how that might be incorporated into our school system.

I have been open here about having been an English teacher, as I think it does give me some basic credentials when discussions about writing come up. It doesn't give me any in other areas besides writing, and I haven't claimed to be an expert in any field I haven't spent time learning, either officially or own my own. I love learning new things and sharing them. That was part of the reasons I chose teaching as a career in the first place. It was where I was coming from, then and now.

I do not see myself as being someone who expects others to automatically agree with me, and often wonder why a few do, when I have said, many times over that we all have different perspectives and can benefit from hearing another's as well as from expressing our own. I feel strongly that all of our individual points of view are valid but limited, and that when we discuss them we can see a broader, more complete picture. I will defend my right to the validity of my own perspectives, especially when an individual becomes aggressive in insisting that she or he holds the only possible version of what is true.

Maybe after today you and I can both understand each other a little better. It would be nice to hear from you more often.

9/16
                      Don't be afraid to come into the cave, you may be surprised
                      what you'll find......

                                                    Cheers.......Joe

So glad to see you E.Don.
Was that Rudy, you were thinking of?

Dom, I set up the thread.

joefrank wrote:

9/16
                      Don't be afraid to come into the cave, you may be surprised
                      what you'll find......

                                                    Cheers.......Joe

No Alice, it wasn't Rudy. He and I actually got along for a good while. It was the other guy, the one that was very friendly with that woman named Pier or something like that.

James?

Jim Elders

That's the one.

I did a google search to find his name and couldn't find the old forums (PAMB). Of course my search pulled up the America Star Books / PublishAmerica / Independence Books forum on AW. What a sad sob story that place is! The latest post on the NEPAT was dated 13th August, over a month ago!

Sounds like they've lost their cause.

Publishing has changed so much since PA that it's buyer beware or publish yourself.  PA was smart to change their name.  Many small presses do approximately the same as PA so NEPAT would have a big list of authors to slam.  Couldn't keep up.

Facebook seems to be the new forum, including Facebook groups.  The three publishers with which I have worked all had Facebook groups, yahoo groups or google groups or more than one.

Facebook doesn't fit my nature.  It can be very ugly and mean-spirited where posters definitely say things they would not dare in public places.

Yeah, guys, it was Elders. Never did buy into his BS. I had forgotten the name of the Absolute Write forum. Just as well. Nothing there of any interest.