The measure of success ...

... even literary agents can't measure it:

http://askaliteraryagent.blogspot.co.uk/2009/09/how-many-copies-must-book-sell-to-be.html

So, do we attempt to measure our success by living up to other people's standards, or do we set our own and do our personal best?

As we grow and evolve, our life's purpose can shift. Recognizing that it is time to let go and move forward, in my book, is an excellent success marker.

I know many people who are thinking in that direction these days. The world is shifting its perspective; we find ourselves shifting with it.

Annie

Success is reaching a percentage of the goal with which one is satisfied. Once, my goal was to "publish." Funny, how that original idea of "success" morphs into something else.

Being a successful writer was never a goal for me. Succeeding as a wife and a mother was what I wanted to do.
Our children are educated and productive. I am quite satisfied.

I wish for once that the people who write such columns would discuss nonfic as well as fiction. Nonfic actually sells more books than fiction. Yet all I ever see discussed is fiction.

LC wrote:

I wish for once that the people who write such columns would discuss nonfic as well as fiction. Nonfic actually sells more books than fiction. Yet all I ever see discussed is fiction.

I agree hardily.

alj wrote:

So, do we attempt to measure our success by living up to other people's standards, or do we set our own and do our personal best?

As we grow and evolve, our life's purpose can shift. Recognizing that it is time to let go and move forward, in my book, is an excellent success marker.

I know many people who are thinking in that direction these days. The world is shifting its perspective; we find ourselves shifting with it.

Annie

The article is three years old and is dated given the immense changes in the industry brought about by POD, e-book publishing, and self-publishing. But it is typical of the traditional advice given to new authors even today by industry professionals. Its layout of publishing expenses and the factors to consider still applies, however, but there are new metrics to take into consideration, and the business is undergoing huge changes.

He would do better by writing an article explaining to agents, editors, and publishers how to survive in a brave new world that doesn't need them as much as before.

The author should be a moderator or member on AW. He begins by suggesting to writers that they don't know anything about publishing, a common theme over there.

LC wrote:

I wish for once that the people who write such columns would discuss nonfic as well as fiction. Nonfic actually sells more books than fiction. Yet all I ever see discussed is fiction.

I think this covers it in the article:

"Most debut literary story collections net approximately 2,000 hardcover copies. Most literary first novels net between 3,000 and 7,000 hardcover copies. Most commercial first novels net between 5,000 and 10,000 hardcover copies. Non-fiction is genre specific, so one would have to take into account whether one were dealing with relationships, parenting, dieting, health, business, history, memoir—or whatever the genre—before one could offer approximations. That said, netting at least 20,000 hardcovers in any genre will usually be enough to make any publisher pay serious attention to your next book."

LC wrote:

I wish for once that the people who write such columns would discuss nonfic as well as fiction. Nonfic actually sells more books than fiction. Yet all I ever see discussed is fiction.

He touches on the subject when he mentions non-fic genres, but he doesn't seem to understand the kinds of non-fic that Elsie and I are familiar with. Or even realize that they exist. I think there's a superior, poor-relation view of writers like us among many professionals in the publishing of fiction. I've bumped into it a lot lately.

Al Stevens wrote:

LC wrote:

I wish for once that the people who write such columns would discuss nonfic as well as fiction. Nonfic actually sells more books than fiction. Yet all I ever see discussed is fiction.

He touches on the subject when he mentions non-fic genres, but he doesn't seem to understand the kinds of non-fic that Elsie and I are familiar with. Or even realize that they exist. I think there's a superior, poor-relation view of writers like us among many professionals in the publishing of fiction. I've bumped into it a lot lately.

The article isn't specifically about works of fiction. It's about profit. Success to an author is selling x number of books. Success to a publisher is money in the bank to pay staff wages, rent, rates and overheads.

Yes, he gave nonfic two worthless sentences ("There's too much of it, so I can't say anything meaningful about it.").

I'd like to see royalties discussed somewhere. I always read how novelists are paid based on the purchase price. I wouldn't know anything about that. My royalties are all based on the net price.

Quote :

He would do better by writing an article explaining to agents, editors,
and publishers how to survive in a brave new world that doesn't need
them as much as before.

It's fabulous that nonfic authors never needed agents, and still don't. I personally had one experience with an agent, and it was negative.

Quote :

Success to an author is selling x number of books

Well, to me, success is profit not number of books. If I sold 10 books and made $20,000 I'd be happy. lol

About nonfic being too varied to discuss -these columnists could discuss the most popular nonfic genres as a break from constantly discussing novels.

LC wrote:

About nonfic being too varied to discuss -these columnists could discuss the most popular nonfic genres as a break from constantly discussing novels.

You just like me doing the research for you! Here's a list of average sales for ten fiction and non-fiction authors:

http://stevelaube.com/what-are-average-book-sales/

I FAILED!

The comments were better than that article.

I know that some articles are written on nonfic. I just meant that compared to the number of articles written about novels, there's almost nothing. Even the one you linked to was mostly about novels.

I like how he basically said that "average" means nothing. Of course it means nothing. Yet it's what the promoters of paid services to writers (including vanity presses) always trot out when they're trying to sell something. "The average book sells this!" Who cares? Too many people with no critical thinking skills falling for it, though.

LC wrote:

It's fabulous that nonfic authors never needed agents, and still don't. I personally had one experience with an agent, and it was negative.

I never had an agent.

When you talk about non-fiction, are you including autobioraphy? And not just autobiography of the famous or people in the news. Exactly what is considered non-fiction other than text books?

Say, for instance, that I should write about my childhood, would that be considered non-fiction and not need an agent?

Love,

Betty

alice wrote:

I FAILED!

Alice, see my Joy Thread article reposte below:

alj wrote:

Another goodie by Madison Tayor at The Daily Om. The title of this one doesn't sound so joyful - you have to read on a bit to see her pioint:

Quote :

May 8, 2013
Failure
Choose Your Words

The word failure puts forward a very simplistic way of thinking that allows for only two possibilities: failure or success. Few things in the universe are black and white, yet much of our language reads as if they are. The word failure signifies a paradigm in which all subtlety is lost. When we regard something we have done, or ourselves, as a failure, we lose our ability to see the truth, which is no doubt considerably more complex. In addition, we hurt ourselves. All you have to do is speak or read the word failure and see how it makes you feel.
---------------------------------------------------------
Next time you feel like a failure or fear failure, know that you are under the influence of an outmoded way of perceiving the world. When the world failure comes up, it’s a call for us to apply a more enlightened consciousness to the matter at hand. When you are consciously aware of the word and its baggage you will not fall victim to its darkness.

http://www.dailyom.com/articles/2013/38579.html

Well, pooh! I just wrote a cool response to the Non-fiction issue, but my broadband gateway did its shut-down thing for several minutes, and I lost it.

Basically, I was agreeing that the statistics for non-fiction books aren't readily available, admitting that it was difficult because non-fiction is such a broad genre.

For instance, I wrote a non-fiction book. It was, and apparently still has the potential to be, moderately successful within a very small niche market. It really has nothing in common with LC's or Shelagh's husband's textbooks, or with Al's computer tech manuals.

Still, it would be nice to be able to bet a valid measure of its "success."

Said more before and better, but I am going to send while I can.

Thanks, Ann,
No worries. I don't consider myself a failure. Just didn't write a best-seller. Neither do most folks.

I knew that.

So, why don't you try a memoir (an autobiography about your own life) You are off to a good start with your first two books. some bits would overlap, but you could advertise it as being written by the author or the critically acclaimed Peas, Pills, and Parkinsons.

Annie

Quote :

When you talk about non-fiction, are you including autobioraphy? And not just autobiography of the famous or people in the news. Exactly what is considered non-fiction other than text books?

Say, for instance, that I should write about my childhood, would that be considered non-fiction and not need an agent?

My definition of nonfiction categories:

Biographies, memoir, textbooks, reference, historical, scientific, sports, true-life adventure, narrative (which is kind of like fiction in that it's an engaging story).

You can go to B/N to see what nonfic is; 3/4 of the store is nonfic, at least here. It's far more popular than fiction. Cookbooks, political stories, camping, fishing, computer, homeschooling, military histories, histories of the world, crafts, parenting, travel, learn a language, art, beauty, health, psychic world, gardening, the solar system, public speaking, investing, home repairs, how-to [do anything]...

As for if you need an agent, my guess is that for most of the above, no. Not sure about a memoir.

edited because I keep thinking of stuff to add, lol. True crime, home decorating, origami...

Betty Fasig wrote:

When you talk about non-fiction, are you including autobioraphy? And not just autobiography of the famous or people in the news. Exactly what is considered non-fiction other than text books?

Say, for instance, that I should write about my childhood, would that be considered non-fiction and not need an agent?

Love,

Betty

Non-fiction is anything that isn't fictionalised: memoirs, how to books, self-help, true stories etc.

ETA: LC beat me to it!

Betty and Alice - your avatars are so much alike I am getting you mixed up.