Abe's Point

On Facebook--Abe mentioned that the governor of Texas was cheered for executing criminals.
Are people weird or what?
I think we should stop all executions. We can't afford them and they are meanspirited. They do not reduce crime either.

Your opinion?

Don't get me started on that one...the entire prison system including executions needs major revamping. The cost is exhoribant. An entire industry to house prisoners has grown up with its own lobbyists.

Why should taxpayers be paying for education and medical care for people who are housed in cages and will never be fully productive citizens again? People who commit crimes need to pay restitution to society, not the other way around.

As for execution: I believe that the giver of life takes it away - and that's not man.

Persons who commit crimes for addictions need treatment and then community service to make restitution for the crimes committed.

Persons who commit bad check crimes need to do community service making restitution.

Persons who harm others may need some incarceration to protect the public.

There's so much more; it is very complicated. However, the prison system does not prevent crime. Criminals do not believe they will be caught.

A third of my book, And Adam was a Gardener, took place on a planet where those who committed crimes were isolated from society, but given work that would contribute to the betterment of the society.

Quote :

Dawilan slowly folded the soft grey cowl of the Paran, the clothes he had worn for the last nine years, and lay them on the cot. The fitted black jumpsuit of the Landar seemed tight and uncomfortable after such a long time. He looked around the cramped and sparse cell, knowing that it had grown as comfortable to him as had the loose grey robe. His long, delicate fingers self-consciously smoothed the jumpsuit. He wondered what it would be like to be outside again.

"Everything changes, Wilo." The voice came from behind him.

Although he had not sensed the Old Man's presence, he was not surprised that he had come in to the lockless cell. For the Old Man to address him by name at all, much less by his family name, was unusual in the Paran, where if people spoke to each other at all, they spoke generally, saying only what had to be said. He smiled, "How did you know?"

The Old Man cackled, "You still question?"

"Foolishly."

"You are no fool, merely somewhat unenlightened still. I will miss you. There are few here who can even begin to understand."

"A part of me would prefer to stay. I have much more to learn."

"So obvious. Else you would have turned the Emlan down."

"You think I am making a mistake." It was not a question. Dawilan did not even ask how much the Old Man knew, or how he knew. He was not that foolish.

"It is not a question of mistake. You make your choices, as do all of us. As you did nine years ago. How did you find the Emlan?"

"Older."


Dawilan recalled the previous morning. He had been on his knees in the garden, tending as always the tiny seedlings, when he felt the presence of someone behind him. He had known immediately who it was. (He had learned some things.)

"Humility becomes you, Wilo,"

"Uncle Bren,” he had replied without looking up from his work. "What brings you to such a place as this?" He had stood up then, facing his uncle directly, noticing the crest on the black jumpsuit. "I should have known that my mother had stepped down, or you wouldn't be here... Emlan." He nodded, "I should have shown more respect."

"Not needed." Emlan Berinan looked awkward. "Your mother is dead."

The tone of Dawilan's voice changed no more than the expression on his face. "Again, I should have known. She would never have stepped down." Then he grinned. "She didn't trust you, either."

"Trust was never one of my sister's finest qualities, but I am learning that it is dangerous for an Emlan to trust anyone. That is why I'm here." Dawilan waited. "I need you, Wilo. There is no one else in the Landar I can trust. I want you to return to the Centre."

"No one leaves the Paran, Uncle."

"Unless pardoned by the Emlan," the older man shrugged. "It has never been done, but there is nothing in the Order of Dainar to prevent it." and then, he grinned. "I checked."

Dawilan was silent, puzzled. He motioned toward a stone bench at the corner of the garden. The two men walked to it quietly and sat down. "Such a step would be questioned, even so. I doubt that I would be followed, even if I returned on your orders. People remember, Uncle."

The Emlan spoke. "They only remember what they have been told. And that, by this time, could be corrected, and lolana's treachery made public. You are a natural leader. You would be followed." He frowned and lowered his voice, "I cannot tell you at this point why I need you. Only that I need you. If you choose to help me, you will be re-instated to the Landar and allowed to return home. Then I will tell you. If you remain, you must know nothing, except that without your help, the very Order is at stake." He looked hard at his nephew. The earnest grey eyes that Dawilan had known and believed in since his birth said more than his words. "We are on the verge of Chaos, Dawilan, and you are the only one who can prevent it.”


"Everything changes?" Dawilan looked at the Old Man, addressing his first statement. "The past doesn't change. lolana was my sister, and I killed her. Had I not, Chaos would have destroyed the Order. But she was my sister, and I cannot blame my mother for not forgiving. I am not sure I have forgiven myself. Bren says people will forgive once they know the truth. I am not so certain."
"But you are curious, and you have not overcome your need to rule. That is one of your weaknesses, one you will have to come to terms with one day. Just as you will have to face those blank spaces still in your past."
Dawilan sat on the cot and looked at the Old Man. "You have been a great teacher. I wish I had time to learn more. I will miss you."
The Old Man cackled again. "You will take me with you, inside your head, whether you like it or not. You will continue learning what I have to teach. Your future is not written. But but there are probabilities, and knowing you as I do, I should think that they will likely come to pass."
"You know why my uncle wants me, don't you?"
The Old Man sighed, "Still questions. But I will give you a last warning." He leaned down and held the younger man by the shoulders, his eyes looking at Dawilan directly. "There are worse things than Chaos, my son."

Quote :

A third of my book, And Adam was a Gardener, took place on a planet where those who committed crimes were isolated from society, but given work that would contribute to the betterment of the society.

I wonder if the reason many (most?) inmates don't do restitution is because it's near impossible to make them do so. My understanding is that prisoners who work (e.g., in the prison kitchen, laundry, or whatever) are the ones who want to. The really far-goners (terrible attitudes, tempers, etc.) aren't going to do anything except continue to make the guards' job difficult.

Quote :

Why should taxpayers be paying for education and medical care for people who are housed in cages and will never be fully productive citizens again? People who commit crimes need to pay restitution to society, not the other way around.

Re medical care, if we incarcerate them, I think we should be responsible for their medical care -what's the alternative? However, my understanding is that prison-provided care is terrible anyhow.

I don't know what taxpayer funded education is provided, but if it keeps them more manageable for the guards, then I guess that's reason enough.

Surprise I agree with LC!

Justifications for death penalty:

1. Prevents recurrance of offense
   
2. Avoids cost of maintaining (food, clothing, housing, medical care, etc.) prisoner for life
   
3. Deters others
   
4. Punishment
   
5. Revenge
   

Looking at that:

1. So does life without parole (in solitary if necessary)
   
2. Wrong. Costs a lot more to litigate a death penalty case to the end
   
3. Not supported when comparing statistics among jurisdictions that do and do not impose the death penalty
   
4. Who knows?
   
5. Maybe. Does a victim's family really find closure when we off the bad guy?
   

So, it appears that there is no valid justification. Which might be why most civilized nations do not impose the death penalty. Among those that do: Afghanistan, China, Cuba, Egypt, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, Korea, Kawait, Laos, Libya, Pakistan, Syria, and the United States.

Nice company we're keeping.

AL,

Those countries kill anyone, anytime on a whim.
We don't do that.


I wouldn't put us with them.



However, I am opposd to the death penalty except in the case of bin Laden, putting him on trial would have been a disaster and we killed too many of the wrong people, instead of him.



Just me.

9/12/2011


Have a prisoner who is a murder sentenced for "LIFE,"
and I mean life without parole. Have a large photo behind
a glass enclosure as large as the wall and he would have to
look at it 24-7 for the rest of his life, very haunting measure.
Part of the picture would be how they looked before the murder
the other half after the murder.


Cheers..Joe

A photo of whom, Joe, the perp or the victim?

Ann

Good question, Ann.



I think Joe meant the perpetrator.



Also have sad funeral music playing round the clock. Display pictures of the bereaved relatives and friends.



Whatever the perpetrator wishes to not eat--have that as the main course of every meal.

Crime would diminish.

First, I don't believe in incarceration. Therefore, I feel that providing education and medical care to people who are caged is a triple mistake with funds that could better be used to restore these people to useful, contributing citizens in some other humane experience, including one that would provide restitution where possible. All costs associated with incarceration would be more economical in a different environment.

I do admit that a certain few dangerous people will need humane incarceration; the very few.

The rest will need to be engaged in community service, medical and mental treatment programs (already available in society), education (already available in society).

Prisons are archaic.
Capital punishment is murder.

Okay we will just lock up the murderers and throw the key away.

They can clean, cook and do for themselves.



They will need guards to protect them from each other.

They can work at designing sympathy cards for the families of those they destroyed.

9/12/2011


Ann..


The Perp....


Cheers..Joe

When you think about it, either might be effective. Remember the story of Dorian Grey?

Ann

What's the difference between an Islamic militant and a Christian militant?

Abe,



Not much difference--they are both dangerous.

Allah and Yahweh?

Ann

Ann's response was technically correct, however Alice got the point I was trying to make.

I'm wondering if the Tea Party should move to Boston. It was in the Boston Harbor that the rebellion forces of America took action that that lead to our Independence. The oppressive policies being promoted by the Tea Party may require a similar demonstration.

The Tea Party needs to disband and apologize for their divisive actions.

They do not promote truthfulness.



Their whole agenda is misleading.

Case in point Gov Perry was reamed out for abridigng teen age girls' rights to have cervical cancer.

He mandated that every girl should be vaccinated.

If the girl did not want the vaccination, her parents could

override it.

At least this way every girl could have it.

They wear me out

Alice, he held stock in the company that sold the vaccine, and they made a large donation to his campaign fund.

He profited heavily from from that mandate.

This man is not one of the good guys.

Ann

But he's a "Christian" and right wing at that. He's a Biblical literalist. What passes in the name of Christ is pitiful.

And while Bush used those ideas to get the support of the religious right, Perry actually believes them.

Ann

I am not for him. But, really don't care if he profited, if he saved one girl from cervical cancer, I will applaud him.



I understand he got $5000.00 from Merck.

He apologized for the mandate--in my opinion it is the best thing he did.

Abe F. March wrote:

What's the difference between an Islamic militant and a Christian militant?

A Christain militant will drive only a USA-made vehicle.
An Islamic militant doesn't care who made the vehicle in which he blows up himself and others.

Jeff: What's the last thing that went through your mind when the bomb exploded?
Achmed: My ass.