Looking Back

My new life began at the age of 15.  Before that, In my mind I stomped the memories down into buried bits that should not ever see the light of night or dreams or day. 
Oh, but there is no eraser that can remove the old times from your mind completely.  Dreams will slap you in the face with those old times that you would forget altogether.  Dreams will entwine your today with that yesterday in such mean and devious ways that you will awake in a sweat and not understand why until you can think about it the next day in your lucid mind. 
I find it amazing that childhood should affect your mind at the age of 71.  So much time has passed, so many good times have gone on, and yet, in the night..there you are with the bullshit of your life looking you in your childhood face.  What trash! 
Love, Betty

Hi, Betty,

I am glad for you that your new life began at 15.  I wonder about what regrets your  mother must have had. She should have felt terrible for failing to protect her children from a monster. 
You came through wondrously.  I salute you.

Now that my brother has passed, I have felt anger at the way he was reared.  He didn't have a fair shot at life.  It was no ones fault.  It just was..

Your mother was limited. She married poorly and  was unaware of the needs of children. 
Look backward to 15 then say, ' STOP'

You were not the boss before 15, Your parents were.

Love ya,

Alice  

Alice,
I am ok nowl  You, you, you, you, have had so much more to deal with than I.  You are the hero.  YOU are the herol 
Love, Betty

No, Betty,
Not so at all.

Betty and Alice, you are both ny heroes. 

Betty, I find myself dealing with older issues these days as well, and mine were not so severe as yours.  Whether it's about hitting our 70's or about living in the times we live in, I'm not sure; maybe a bit of both.

Alice, you deal with your issues day by day, and you still keep your spirits up and keep an open heart.  That's heroic, too.

I have read in several of the places I visit regularly that a part of living in these chaotic times is that we find ourselves looking inward, pulling up the old stuff that we have buried so that we can release if for once and all.

Sometimes those old hurts are like the ones that Hamlet discussed with his mother - the surface heals, but there is still infection underneath, and opening the old wound might be necessary for it to competely heal.

Maybe that's the way it is supposed to be.  At our ages, we have lots of happy memories and successes under our belts, and they give us the stregth to face the stuff again - one last time and be done with it.

Annie

Don't leave vacancies in your thoughts.   Get so busy thinking about the happy times, there is no room for the bad times

Great advice, but remember that once every now and again a rant or a good cry can be cathartic.  Works best when you are alone.  Maybe write a journal entry, then tear it up or burn it.

Betty Fasig wrote:

My new life began at the age of 15.  Before that, In my mind I stomped the memories down into buried bits that should not ever see the light of night or dreams or day. 
Oh, but there is no eraser that can remove the old times from your mind completely.  Dreams will slap you in the face with those old times that you would forget altogether.  Dreams will entwine your today with that yesterday in such mean and devious ways that you will awake in a sweat and not understand why until you can think about it the next day in your lucid mind. 
I find it amazing that childhood should affect your mind at the age of 71.  So much time has passed, so many good times have gone on, and yet, in the night..there you are with the bullshit of your life looking you in your childhood face.  What trash! 
Love, Betty

Most who have had parent problems, stay slaves to those problems as they age. The older one get, the more those problems surface.
Most of us have, or had them. There is a way to put them aside. Come to the understanding the problems are not yours...they were the problem of the parent.(s)

If one keeps forgiving the parents, the slavery starts to go away. True when they pop up the hurt is again felt. It is okay to hate what the parents did, but not the parents.
 To not forgive will keep a person in a slavery of hurt.

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

Betty Fasig wrote:

My new life began at the age of 15.  Before that, In my mind I stomped the memories down into buried bits that should not ever see the light of night or dreams or day. 
Oh, but there is no eraser that can remove the old times from your mind completely.  Dreams will slap you in the face with those old times that you would forget altogether.  Dreams will entwine your today with that yesterday in such mean and devious ways that you will awake in a sweat and not understand why until you can think about it the next day in your lucid mind. 
I find it amazing that childhood should affect your mind at the age of 71.  So much time has passed, so many good times have gone on, and yet, in the night..there you are with the bullshit of your life looking you in your childhood face.  What trash! 
Love, Betty

Most who have had parent problems, stay slaves to those problems as they age. The older one get, the more those problems surface.
Most of us have, or had them. There is a way to put them aside. Come to the understanding the problems are not yours...they were the problem of the parent.(s)

If one keeps forgiving the parents, the slavery starts to go away. True when they pop up the hurt is again felt. It is okay to hate what the parents did, but not the parents.
 To not forgive will keep a person in a slavery of hurt.

True.

Forgiveness is a good thing, but what does it mean?  If it includes condoning, it can't work.

To insist that forgiveness is necessary puts the burden on the innocent victim, and can increase the notion that it was somehow the fault of the victim.

Domenic is onto a part of it when he says that it is the parents' problem, not the child's.  Validation of the abuse and the child's innocence is also a major factor in the healing of the child, which needs to happen if the forgiveness is to be complete  Otherwise, we find ourselves "forgiving" over and over again. Forgiving, repressing, and letting go sometimes can sound alike, but are very different when you look closely.

Validation of the reality of what happened and the innocence of the child is of primary importance.  Validation allows the victim to move on and create a better life.  That doesn't mean that the memories won't come back up.  They do, and that is not the fault of the victim either.  They have a right to their anger, and finding ways to express it safely is an important part of healing and moving on.

There is a Biblical passage: "Know them by their fruits."

Betty and Alice both generate good fruits.  That's what it comes down to, eventually.  They have reasons to feel good about themselves, because they contribute to the world around them in a positive way.  I, personally, cannot imagine either of them engaging in anything that smacks of bullying or abusing in any way.

alj wrote:

Forgiveness is a good thing, but what does it mean?  If it includes condoning, it can't work.

To insist that forgiveness is necessary puts the burden on the innocent victim, and can increase the notion that it was somehow the fault of the victim.

Domenic is onto a part of it when he says that it is the parents' problem, not the child's.  Validation of the abuse and the child's innocence is also a major factor in the healing of the child, which needs to happen if the forgiveness is to be complete  Otherwise, we find ourselves "forgiving" over and over again. Forgiving, repressing, and letting go sometimes can sound alike, but are very different when you look closely.

Validation of the reality of what happened and the innocence of the child is of primary importance.  Validation allows the victim to move on and create a better life.  That doesn't mean that the memories won't come back up.  They do, and that is not the fault of the victim either.  They have a right to their anger, and finding ways to express it safely is an important part of healing and moving on.

There is a Biblical passage: "Know them by their fruits."

Betty and Alice both generate good fruits.  That's what it comes down to, eventually.  They have reasons to feel good about themselves, because they contribute to the world around them in a positive way.  I, personally, cannot imagine either of them engaging in anything that smacks of bullying or abusing in any way.

I do not agree. Forgiveness does not mean condoning, or giving Validation to what the parent(s) have done. It is true to say, "The Parent(s) have passed a problem off to the child...now it is the responsibility of the child to remove the problem from their life. The problem is not a part of the child's baggage. Once the child is at an age of reasoning as an adult, they must come to understand, "Something was wrong with the parent(s) and what the parent(s) did was wrong. If they do not forgive the parents, even if the parents are dead, they suffer as a slave to the unwanted baggage. The way many suffer is in how they deal with other people...forgiving the parent(s) is the only way out.

You said:
"There is a Biblical passage: "Know them by their fruits."

There are other Bible passages also;  Matthew 6:12 "Forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven our debtors." A debt is something we owe, or is owed to us. If someone does you wrong, that is a debt.
If someone has done you wrong, and has died, you can not dig them up. If a husband, or wife has left you, and gone on with their life, all you can do is forgive them, or feel the hurt for the rest of your life, and your dealings with others will suffer. That is no way to live a happy life.
If it is a Parent, Friend, or Mate, one has to forgive the debt of hurt, or live as a slave, and let it control their relationships with other people.

"Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man"
-- Jesuit motto.

The implication of the motto is that we learn everything that forms our character by the time we are seven years old. Those memories are deeply embedded because they form the basis of who we are. We cannot be selective and keep some memories and erase others, unless the mind behaves abnormally. Trauma can erase memories, as can mental illness.

The premise of the above quote was used in a series of programs recorded every seven years, following a group of children from different socio-economic backgrounds. It was interesting to see what aspirations the seven-year-olds had and how closely they managed to achieve their ambitions. Every seven years, they remembered the things they said as a child and looked back with wry amusement, if not with fondness.

We can get hung up on words and what they might mean.

The point is, it is not about the abuser.  The abuse is their problem - their responsibility.  The thing that allows us to move on is the ability to put it behind us and live our lives based on our own merits - to see ourselves as OK people and act from that knowledge.

The memories will come back up.  We need to feel the emotions that come up with them so that we don't act on them, unconsciously or consciously.  People who are living their lives productively do not need to get hung up over whether or not their attitude towards their former abusers is deemed appropriate by others or not.  We cannot tell another person what they ought to feel.  What we can do is validate their felings and accept them for who they are.

I go back to what the creator says. He knows us better then we know ourselves. If he says to forgive, he is saying it for our own good.

Take this little test: "Copy this thread, remove the names, and show it to friends...people you know. See what they say about each member who has made comment on the thread...it may surprise you."

I do not wish to  be argumentative here, but we are all different people. 
What is a huge deal for one person might not loom as large for another.
Betty was not properly reared until 7, but overcame the deficits.
 I was never properly reared.  At 15 I was still under my mother's command. 
She was depressed.  I have nothing to forgive her for she did the best she could.

Alice, when you are right, once again, you are sooo right.

Betty wrote her OP to express her frustration over the difficulty she had - that we all have - when old memories pop back up and start to affect our daily lives.

I just wanted to make sure that she understood that remembering was not about anything she had done or not done. It just happens.  I still want that, but should not have contributed to her post degenerating into an argument.

Sorry about that.

Domenic Pappalardo wrote:

I go back to what the creator says. He knows us better then we know ourselves. If he says to forgive, he is saying it for our own good.

Take this little test: "Copy this thread, remove the names, and show it to friends...people you know. See what they say about each member who has made comment on the thread...it may surprise you."

I hope no one would be misjudged.  All of the comments to me were intended to be helpful.   Yours also. 

alj wrote:

Alice, when you are right, once again, you are sooo right.

Betty wrote her OP to express her frustration over the difficulty she had - that we all have - when old memories pop back up and start to affect our daily lives.

I just wanted to make sure that she understood that remembering was not about anything she had done or not done. It just happens.  I still want that, but should not have contributed to her post degenerating into an argument.

Sorry about that.

Ann, You  have nothing TO APOLOGIZE FOR.  Your advice was great--far better than mine.

There are many things that I can forgive.  Rape of small children is not one of them.  For myself, I will never understand it. No rationalization I can come up with will be called forgiveness.  I choose not to think of it often.  But there is no forgetting and no forgiveness in me.  There never will be.  I choose that it is no longer a part of me.  Enough said.
Love,
Betty

Betty,
I am so sorry  it happened to  you.  I wish I could undo it.

Love ya,

Alice