Editing Costs

What is your opinion about charging $50.00 /10,000 words? Does that seem reasonable?

That's pretty good. It actually strikes me as on the low side (I usually see $70.00/10,000).

If you got a quote from an editor, ask for references and check them.

I believe the Editorial Freelancers Association lists many editor who have worked for big commercial presses. There are many levels of editing:

proofreading or copy editing (checking for continuity, spelling, grammar, logic, etc) should be the least expensive type

content editing (where an editor reads the entire ms. and works with the author to make the book better, suggesting revisions to the actual content of the book) this is pricey since the author is paying for the expertise and experience of the editor in helping to improve the saleability of the work

line editing (where the editor goes over the ms. line by line, improving style problems, smoothing the prose, etc)

Any of these types of editing may be combined with others.

Good, professional editors are not cheap.

-Ann C. Crispin

Quote :

line editing (where the editor goes over the ms. line by line, improving style problems, smoothing the prose, etc)

I advise any competent writer to avoid this type of editing. It can, and often does, destroy originality. Faulkner should not read like Hemingway.

Be careful of editing in general. I have had more things messed up than improved by editors. Two quick examples: The editor of a major magazine knew nothing about country music and "improved" a line containing lyrics by correcting the grammar. In the other case an editor "thought" I meant 1975 rather than 1875 so in 1975 had Chicago detectives racing to the scene of the crime in a horse-drawn hansom cab.

Dick,
I thought it was just me with that feeling. Something that reads too perfect will often lose the flavor and style of the writer. It can become stiff without feeling. We all have our own writing styles and one needs to find someone who will edit without imposing their style on you. That is difficult to find and therefore behooves one to evaluate the work of the editor.
If it is an author/editor, reading a sampling of their writing can be helpful.

Take a look at how many books have been published through the major publishers, and all the author's styles are different, all the writing is different, yet all the books have been edited - some quite heavily.

Someone interviewed Mary Higgins Clark for a magazine article and she told how she strongly objected to her editor's heavy-handed editing on a particular book, yet she later admitted that the book turned out to be a favorite among fans. No one had a problem knowing she was the author.

Ken Follett was kind enough to allow the four different versions of one novel to be published - before and after his editor worked with him. The finished book was a masterpiece, yet his fans still knew it was him.

If you've worked with an editor and felt you lost your voice, then you've worked with an unexperienced editor. An editor's job - his/her livelihood and professional reputation - depends on smoothing awkward sentences, rearranging or deleting text to the best advantage, and doing everything else an editor needs to do, all without destroying the author's voice. After all, how long would he/she last if they edited John Grisham to sound like Stephen King?

Haven't you heard top writers say their pages 'bled' from all the edits they received? And it wasn't just the beginning books. We're all guilty of awkward sentences at times. I'm an editor and I pay dearly for a top editor to check my work and I never worry about her changing my voice.

Brenda,
I have no doubt you are a good editor and writer and people like you are what writers need.

The more I learn about writing, the less I know about writing.
I read a lot and know a good story when I read it. I read for enjoyment. If something is wrong, it will stand out.
When someone asks me to review/critique their work, I read it for content. I don’t have to read it line by line to see if it is grammatically correct. Errors
will hit me in the face. Things that interrupt the flow of reading will be a source of irritation. A story that seemingly goes nowhere, no plot building, will
become boring. Those are the things I will discuss in a review – not grammatical errors. Someone else can do that.
When I write, I rely on someone else to provide grammatical assistance, but more importantly, I want honest feedback about the story. If the story is dull, it makes little difference if it is grammatically correct.

You're so right, Abe. Correcting a dull story takes skill and a LOT of experience, but that's what skilled content editors do, altho even the big houses no longer have the time or manpower to work with writers like they used to do.

That's why freelance editors are so busy. But finding a good one can take some searching. And they're certainly not cheap. Just like I discuss during the Women on Writing interview, someone skilled in English & grammar can correct things like punctuation, but it takes an editor skilled in story structure - scene, sequel, POV - to truly help writers make their manuscripts shine.

And like you, if the story doesn't connect with me, no amount of good grammar is going to make me read it.

I guess I don't understand, or see the scenario, where a publisher buys a dull story and hires somebody to fix it.

Lin, when I mentioned a dull story, I mean when a freelance editor works with his/her clients. Many writers have great stories, but have no clue to how make them interesting or tension-filled.

You've been in the business long enough to remember when the big houses bought books and the editors wined and dined them, sometimes renting houses for them so they may transform a possible manuscript into a dynamite one. Of course today, that doesn't happen.

A few years ago, RT magazine, at least I think it was, ran a contest for the best beginner's manuscript and one writer won. She also won the right to publish a monthy blog about her experiences in trying to get published. Finally, after about a year of sending a couple of different manuscripts, one agent thought she had potential and worked with her. As a result, she's now published with a big house, but not everyone has that opportunity.

All of the professional writers I know edit their own work before it goes to the publisher...they don't hire a freelancer to do this. It simply would not prove cost effective to have to pay for an editor -- at any level -- to work on the manuscript. When you consider that the average first novel receives an advance of about $5000, the math is clear.

I can see a new writer paying a freelance editor who would work with him/her to improve writing skills...style, pacing, characterization, poor grammar, etc., as long as the relationship was one where the editor instructed the writer in fixing his/her writing problems, rather than simply correcting errors or rewriting to fix problems. That way the writer would improve on a permanent basis.

That doesn't mean professional writers don't get feedback before submitting their manuscripts. Most pros I know have one or two "beta readers" -- peers that will read the manuscript to help spot mistakes before it's turned in to the publisher. This is usually a reciprocal arrangement.

I'm fortunate enough to have two great beta readers. It's a tremendous help in turning in polished work.

-Ann C. Crispin

Ann, I'm sure you have a point, but all of the professional writers I know hired an editor before they submitted their manuscripts. But not everyone wants to admit they've used a freelance editor.

Of course it's up to the writer, but an editor is a wonderful help to some, while other writers do not feel the need.

Once a writer has snagged that contract with a larger publisher, he/she has access to an in-house editor, an advantage newer writers do not have. And like every other service offered, it's up to the individual to decide.

During a phone call, I once received excellent firsthand advice from a London literary agent who had just signed up a fourteen-year-old author and sold her work to a publisher for a six figure (GB pounds) sum. He said never change a manuscript on the basis of why it was turned down because publishers/agents won't change their decision and the next person to read the manuscript won't necessarily approve of the changes you make. However, if an agent offers to represent you, be prepared to make any changes that agent requests. Good advice but I never did snag an agent to put it into practise.

Yes, that's true, Shelagh, but I've worked with writers since the 1980s when I owned a bookstore and began critiquing manuscripts. Many new writers haven't attented conferences, haven't done anything except read how-tos, which are great, but most do not cover everything.

Sometimes a manuscript is almost there but needs some simple changes or rearranging to attract an agent. Most agents are universal in certain things - rules if you will - because of what publishers require. The actual story may or may not be what the agent/publisher is seeking at the time, but if a writer needs help in making his/her manuscript the best it can be, I think it's admirable, similiar to someone wanting to break into show business.

Perhaps an actor/actress wants a little nip and tuck here or there. If they want it and can afford it to present their best appearance, more power to them. I also think of it similar to readying your home to put on the market. You may spend on paint, new carpeting or appliances, but if it makes your home more attractive to a potential buyer, then it's worth the expense.

But that's my opinion. I am an editor and I've used them because I want my manuscript to be the best it can be - to borrow a phrase. If others do not feel that way, that's their privilege.

Ok. In rereading your post, I totally agree with you. One writer, who's now a multi-published romance writer, did just that - rewrote her story based on what her agent told her. It wound up as a mess, because the next agent said something entirely different. Agents, while most follow certain 'rules' are simply going on their own opinions and experience.

I had somewhat the same experience when I kept changing Beyond the Quiet to fit a certain house. When they dropped that line, my agent wanted me to tailor my manuscript to fit another line. After much thought, because I really wanted a nicely-paying contract, I said no, dropped the agent, and rewrote the manuscript to tell the story I wanted.

My contact with the publisher may not have paid as much as the other one, but I'm happy. I'm still striving for the biggies, and perhaps that'll happen. Hope so.

So yes, I'd agree with your post.

Editors would not exist without authors seeking their help and they would soon go out of business if authors decided to go it alone. With the rapid growth of self-published authors, the number of editors has increased and will continue to do so. Not just to polish manuscripts for submission to agents and publishers but to knock fictional and non-fictional manuscripts into shape and, as Brenda says, make them the best they can be. There will always be a place in the publishing world for editors. I wish I could afford one!

We cross posted and agreed with one another!

Ah, but you're a scrappy female, Shelagh. Would you be able to 'take it' if an editor suggested construction changes? Before an editor can help, the author has to be open - unless the author is just looking for line editing, which is less expensive by far. Because of your command of the language, I doubt you'd ever need that service

I think I'd need a loonnnngggg vacation before I'd tackle one of your manuscripts, and probably a longer one afterward.

These are the comments I received from YouWriteOn:

"Impeccably written, creating a smooth flow to your opening chapters.
Overall, the grammar and syntax was excellent. Good luck.

I was intrigued by the premise of your story – it put me in mind of other novels centered round a literary mystery or controversy,like AS Byatt’s ‘Possession’ or Carol Shield’s ‘Mary Swann’.
You write in a clear unfussy prose that is easy to read.

You write very effectively, your ideas come across well. Good luck with this!

Your premise is intriguing and so is your narrator. I had no idea where this was going – a plus – and I would have read on to find out. Thanks for a fascinating read!

This is very well written and starts off really well describing the effect of journalists especially Mr D'Arcy on the reader. The clever links with Jane Austen's novels and the excellent writing would definitely make me want to read on to find out what happens next. Good luck with this and well done"

From the comments, I guess my grammar is up to scratch, although I can be pretty tough on myself and spend hours editing and polishing. This review from the Astronomer Royal for Scotland, John C. Brown, made the effort seem worthwhile:

MR. PLANEMAKER'S FLYING MACHINE

Except for those with a phobia, flying has always been the stuff of dreams among all ages and, in this age of technological wonders, flying in space has become an integral part of this dreamland. As well as being the stuff of daring do, flying is full of mystery and laden with symbolic escapism, lifting us above the daily grind of adulthood and the growing fears of childhood, and human pettinesses, from gossip to bullying, which detracts all age groups from the joy of living.

In Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine, Shelagh Watkins takes us on a flight of fancy, both metaphorical and literal, through these dreams, fears and joys. We are taken rolling and looping in skies through clouds of bereavement, sibling antagonism, and human spitefulness, into a brighter but mysterious world of computer systems, then onward and upward into the heavens and among the planets themselves. Closure of the stormy sky issues, through which child heroes Emmelisa and Dell have struggled, is eventually approached in the final pursuit of Mr. Planemaker's physics-defying Trail of Light, during which we are constantly surprised.

While all this may sound a bit heavy for kids to read or for a bed-time story, and while it is thought provoking for adults, the yarn is a compulsive tale for kids, spun around daily routines and banalities mixed with fantasy elements and outrageous characters. The unashamedly corny names for the latter will bring a chuckle even to the sworn pun-hater like me. Who has not known a school brat like Mayja Troublemaker and someone with as little spark as her uncle Verry Boringman?

The escape route from these pains in the neck emerges gradually via a series of encounters, first at a strange house being worked on by Anne R Keytect, Bill Dare, Joy Nair and Dek Orator of Dream Homes Inc, then on to Whiz Kid Computer Maintenance in Virtual Realty. Mr. Wizard Kidd leads us further into Hardwareland where many of the workings of computer operating systems are revealed to us with greater insight than many a manual, though in this case the user interface smacks more of magic than of a keyboard.

In the CPU building things rapidly progress toward the (virtual) reality of the Planemaker's Flying Machine PH1. Then, at an ever increasing rate we head with Emmelisa for space itself, with the help of valet Sue Tassistant, coordinator Mish Oncontrol, and master pilot/instructor Astrow Naught. Thereafter, on a solar system tour, some of the strands of the story are tied up, in ways readers must find for themselves or I will spoil the climax.

So, in the end, what does it all mean? I am not sure that I know, or even that Shelagh Watkins does, though surely Cosmos Planemaker the magical family cat knows, if anyone does. What I do know is that this is a refreshing and unusual kids' story which I, as a hard-nosed scientist — albeit with magic as a hobby — had to read to the end, and that it will likewise enthrall children readers and bed-time story tellers alike. So buy it, lie back, and enjoy it with, or even without the kids.
John C. Brown Astronomer Royal for Scotland
Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
University of Glasgow Scotland, U.K.

You know, all the 'rules' of writing have been designed to create an enjoyable experience for the reader. Judging from the reviews, you've accomplished that, so celebrate your achievments and go from there.

My granddaughter had to write a report for her psychology class on intrinsic and extrinsic rewards. I think these apply big time to writing. Intrinsic is enjoying the writing process and the characters, and extrinsic is getting getting published, getting a great review and making money.

So far the intrinsic rewards have been fantastic.

I used an editor who was very helpful in many ways. I still had the option of refusing her suggestions, however.

Carol

Another interesting psych insight on rewards is that "long shot" reward conditioning lasts longer than regular rewards.

If you're used to getting a pay check every week and don't get a couple, you're going to be gone pretty quick.

But golfers and gamblers will continue without rewards for years, hoping that their next shot will pay off.

I'm not saying this applys to writing.


Well, actually, that is what I'm saying.

I just finished going back over a manuscript for errors (and on the pdf, too, which is a real pain)

This MS was edited by a professional editor working for one of the largest indy/POD publishers. He single-handedly killed my deal with that company, leading to loss by both the company and myself.

But what amazed me was that the guy was totally incompetent. I would have been better off if he'd never touched the MS. Not just things he missed (while getting apoplectic over things that just didn't suit his personality) but STOOOOPID stuff he did.


He changed all commas in front of quotes to colons.
So we go from Tom said, "I'm here."
to Tom said: "I'm here."

I overlooked that because I thought it might be UK style (the publisher is BeWrite, in England)

But he also went through and changed ALL my colons to commas!!!! Thus creating hundreds of run-on sentences.
Now I KNOW that isn't style anywhere.

He also changed almost every intitials in the book to spelled out versions, despite my telling him not to. So we end up with the equivalent of "Oh, no, it's the Federal Bureau of Investigation! Run!"
Or a bunch of journalists talking among themselves, saying, "He's a stringer for United Press International."

This guy took hours out of his life to cost me months of a blow deal, HOURS of undoing his damage, and company months of time, money, and hassle.

Professional editor. Name is Hugh McCracken. If you run into him clutch your work to your chest and RUN

OMG Lin!!!

Did this dude even pass 5th grade English????

Not that I plan to hire an editor .. but ...

Is this him?
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