They hang the author by his/her heels.

I have not submitted to a standard publishers as yet. I have five books done. If I get an agent, and she sells to a standard publisher, it could take two years for a book to be ready for the printer. In two years there could be a whole different market. It’s known most of the money a writer will make is the advance. Most publishers will give little, or no advance to a new writer.

The pulp market is still growing, thanks to Amazon getting more people to read books.

The number of ebooks, and pulp books sold by Amazon is off the scale…they are doing great.
I was looking into putting one of my books out on Amazon. I read their contract. Good for Amazon, very bad for the author.

I have looked at several other internet publishers, and their contracts seem to copy that of Amazon. It’s not a contract I would sign.

I can make by own ebooks, I have a program for that. But, if I did that I have no way of selling them. People go to Amazon. To try to sell a book on my own web site would be a waste of time.

You who have your work on Amazon, and other cyber publishers have more insight on this subject…what can you tell me?

Read this, Domenic:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/14/hugh-howey-author-earnings-self-publishing-revolution

About finding your market:

I watched an antiques show on TV recently. Two experts were pitched against one another with £1,000 of their own money to spend. The profit they made went to charities of their own choice. One expert amassed a profit of around £500; the other made £2,000. The expert who made the biggest profit bought, among his other purchases, two Art Deco, red leather chairs. The seller sold the chairs to the expert for £500 approx. The expert buyer sold the chairs on to a specialist Art Deco store for £950, giving the expert a profit of £450. The owner of the shop, who paid £950, would expect to make at least 50% profit on the resale of the chairs. A customer was going to pay around £1,500 for two chairs that could have been bought for £500, if the customer knew how to find the chairs. The quality of the chairs did not increase by transporting them from venue to venue. The value increased because they reached the customer who collected Art Deco furniture.

The problem with selling your books in e-book format is reaching the readers who would be willing to pay to read your books. Publishers only accept new authors' books that fit onto their list. Like the Art Deco retailer, publishers know their readers and provide books for them. It isn't so easy for self-publishers to find their audience. The formula that seems to work best is to publish a book; a few months later publish another; same again a few months later. Push the first, then the second, then the third, boost the marketing on the first ...

Shelagh wrote:

Read this, Domenic:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/14/hugh-howey-author-earnings-self-publishing-revolution

Thank you for that…it spells out the problem. The question is, “What is the answer?”

It’s clear the cyber publishers are just as bad as the pulp publishers. It is, and has always been the producer of the product, the author, comes out on the bottom.

I would like to see a web page by writers, for writers. Something like a flee market for writers to sell their books. If a few thousand writers posted their work, and the reader bought the work from the author, and not the web page…I think it would grow. As it is now writers are letting a second, and third party control everything, and make most of the profit, plus, controlling the rights.

I have an ebook program that I paid $67. USD. It will do any book except a math book.

If there was a flee market for writers, The owner of the flee market could charge say $100. USD fee per year to post ebooks. (built by the writer.)

A writer buys an ebook builder program. Signs up on paypal, and sell their work at the flee market. It would be slow at first, but I think it would grow as big as Amazon.

What do you think?

On Absolute Write they have a name for that: YADS (Yet Another Display Site).

That effort has been around for a long time, and one or two got very big, like Authonomy, which is still around. Do you browse Authonomy? If not, why not? I don't because I don't want to wade through a giant slush pile. I don't think most readers do.

I also think that before most writers will pay someone $100/year to host their books, they'd like to see evidence that the site generates sales. So, chicken/egg...

Quote :

If I get an agent, and she sells to a standard publisher, it could take two years for a book to be ready for the printer.

What are you basing this on? My books are in print four-six months at MOST after manuscript submission. My current one is being fast-tracked, meaning it should be out even sooner.

LC wrote:

Quote :

If I get an agent, and she sells to a standard publisher, it could take two years for a book to be ready for the printer.

What are you basing this on? My books are in print four-six months at MOST after manuscript submission. My current one is being fast-tracked, meaning it should be out even sooner.

Are your books with a big New York Publisher, Small press, or ?

LC wrote:

On Absolute Write they have a name for that: YADS (Yet Another Display Site).

That effort has been around for a long time, and one or two got very big, like Authonomy, which is still around. Do you browse Authonomy? If not, why not? I don't because I don't want to wade through a giant slush pile. I don't think most readers do.

I also think that before most writers will pay someone $100/year to host their books, they'd like to see evidence that the site generates sales. So, chicken/egg...

Anything Absolute forum comes out with...is a waste of time. Those people spend most of their time trashing Publish America.
As to a writer wants to know if a site generates sales, they won't know it their book will sell on any site. What big publisher are you with?

Wiley, Prentice-Hall, Cengage, Bloomsbury, TAB/McGraw-Hill (large)
Stackpole Books (mid-size)

I agree w/ AW being mostly a waste of time, which is why I haven't visited it in a long time. Doesn't take away from YADS being wastes of time, too. Do you visit Authonomy?

LC wrote:

Wiley, Prentice-Hall, Cengage, Bloomsbury, TAB/McGraw-Hill (large)
Stackpole Books (mid-size)

I agree w/ AW being mostly a waste of time, which is why I haven't visited it in a long time. Doesn't take away from YADS being wastes of time, too. Do you visit Authonomy?

Do I visit Authonomy?  No, truth is I have never heard of it before? I'll take a look.
And yes it's true most sites draw no viewers. It cost money to get a site known. Most of those that fail don't have the money, nor know how to market, or hire a good marketing team. I'm not suggesting such a site is, or is not a good idea.  At present I don't know.

I don't think anyone visits Authonomy except authors. As an author, I prefer my books to be where READERS hang out, not other authors. As a reader, where do you look for your own books?

LC wrote:

I don't think anyone visits Authonomy except authors. As an author, I prefer my books to be where READERS hang out, not other authors. As a reader, where do you look for your own books?

Most of the books I read now are from South American authors in English, or those from eastern Europe. I find their writing style is fresh. All the American writers who's work I loved, have all died. There is a little used book store near me that keeps getting in what I like.
What name do you go by on your books?

There are sites where you can sell your ebooks:

https://selz.com/

Twenty more here:

http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/sell-ebooks/

Shelagh, that second link was a good list. Lots of YADS sites still around, apparently! The only names there I recognized were Smashwords, Lulu and Kindle Boards. I wonder how many readers really browse those places. I think Amazon is the best flea market. It's wonderfully organized and has lots of features. Why would I go anywhere else? Besides a physical store, of course.

I bet the small used bookstore that Domenic goes to makes more sales than most of the sites on that list together.

Thank you Shelagh...

2/15/2014
                    Shelagh..
                                 That was great information sites on E Books, Thanks. I have to
                           check them out..

                                                               Cheers...Joe... 

All due respect, LC, your textbooks have a target audience, which makes finding a publisher for your work an easier task.  You already have the creds.

Trying to get in through independent and self-publishing venues is an altogether different matter.

I understand that. I was responding to the question of an online flea market enabling readers to discover authors. I don't see how it would serve independent/self-published authors in any meaningful way. Do you look for books for yourself to read at any of the sites in Shelagh's link?

And a flea market already exists, it's Amazon. What is that if not a giant flea market? Anyone can upload their book there (or anything else they want to sell; the non-book departments have become like eBay. There's more third party merchandise there now than Amazon merchandise.).

Perhaps what is needed for fiction writers is a legitimate review magazine where the reviews can be trusted.  Authors would pay a fee to join based on the number of pages they submitted annually for review.  The reviewers would not be paid; the fees are to maintain the site.

Reviewers would review by genre and publication date.  There would be a standard review format.  Each book would receive maybe three site reviews.  Then space would be available for more add on reviews by general readers (controlled for spamming).

Thus if I looked for a good drama, I would look through the reviews for the currently published and backlist (separate section) drama.

Submissions for review would have to have some authentication that they are free of errors, edited, etc. which is not the case for Amazon.com

To join Redroom.com and to join Authors Guild, a vetting process is required to indicate the author has some credentials so their work is professional.  Those credentials include published in a reputable newspaper or magazine, the amount of money annually from writing, etc.

I'm sort of stumbling here as I have just though in this line from reading these posts.  Perhaps this place already exists.  It needs to have limitations so readers have faith in the system.

In my experience with both textbooks and trade books, the contracts offered by traditional publishers are far more restrictive than POD and ebook publishers. There is no comparison. And the royalty rates are a fraction of those that indie authors can obtain through self-publishing.

Freedom comes at a very high price, though, and appearances can most decidedly be very deceiving. A relatively meager royalty of, say, 12.5 percent seems almost offensive when compared with a 70 percent share for a Kindle book in the $2.99 - $9.99 list price range. But comparing apples to rocks is not very helpful. Indie authors are left to their own devices in marketing their books and the overwhelming majority of self-published titles will simply not sell in any reasonable numbers without the author spending a great deal of time (and/or money) marketing and promoting each book. 

As with any entrepreneurial venture involving legal substances, there is no magic formula other than hard work and a rational business plan. The New York Lottery promises that all you need is "a dollar and a dream." Posting a self published book by a little known author on 20 sites (or 200 sites) is less likely to yield a satisfying result than playing Lotto.

The good news today is that everyone can be an author these days. The bad news is that getting people to actually buy what indie authors produce in significant numbers requires a great deal of hard work. That is why most rational authors jump at the chance to sign a 12.5 percent royalty contract with any of the traditional well-established houses that is about as friendly as the average unconditional surrender agreement. Yes some indie authors do sell an extraordinary number of books as indie publishers. And yes, some people who play the New York lottery do get rich too. Each has about the same odds of success in my view. An indie author who sells well makes news. The millions of indie authors who post their books in multiple places and scratch their heads in wonder as to why no one finds or buys them (unless they give them away) does not. The latter is in the decidedly "dog bites man" rather than "man bites dog" variety and is no more newsworthy than the sun rising every morning in the East.

Victor pretty well summed it up.  However, hope spring eternal and I do have colleagues from L & L Dreamspell that continue to sell a respectable number of books and publish more.  They spend a lot of time at conferences, fairs, panels, launches, book signing parties, producing gimmick events, posting on blogs and offering contests.  However, they also sell books.

Quote :

Perhaps what is needed for fiction writers is a legitimate review magazine where the reviews can be trusted.  Authors would pay a fee to join based on the number of pages they submitted annually for review.  The reviewers would not be paid; the fees are to maintain the site.

I don't see that happening. It's more likely that "influencers," as they're called on LinkedIn, will take on a greater role in this, such as the bloggers and review sites (mostly for traditionally published works) that exist now.

A member of the Naples Press Club has taken it upon himself to post book reviews of those members who he likes and thus influences whose books are read by members.