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 Set Apart

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slb
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Number of posts : 926
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Age : 57
Location : Oskaloosa, Iowa

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PostSubject: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyMon Oct 24, 2011 6:13 am

A scary look at government run health care. http://braytonsbookbuzz.blogspot.com/
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyMon Oct 24, 2011 10:18 am

I fail to see what this has to do with health care. It appears to be just another attempt to disparage the word and the program.
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 2:09 pm

I don't think the book talks about the quality of health care itself, but rather what happens when the government is in control of a program. The scary part is all too real in government rationing, the tier system, doctors not being able to administer and proscribe treatment without bowing to the system first. That's real. That's now. I mean wouldn't you love to have the health insurance/care Congress has? There's already class warfare. We complain about the HMOs and insurance companies' rules but nobody complains how the government is going to do the same thing and even more so. Obamacare won't work, will drive up costs, and the signs of its failure are being seen even today two years before the program is supposed to be implemented. You think you have trouble contacting with the bureaucracy of Blue Cross/Blue Shield or any other big insurance company? Wait until you have to deal with thousands of government workers.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyTue Nov 01, 2011 1:00 am

Steve,
if I had not experienced a government controlled healthcare program that works efficiently, I may be inclined to buy into the theories.
As mentioned previously, government control does not mean government run. The controls are to insure that the guidelines are followed, i.e., that pre-existing contiditions are covered and that no one is denied coverage. Affordable based on one's income makes good sense. Without control, profit-based premiums means that only the rich and/or employer participating programs can afford coverage.

I experienced being hospitalized in the US and in Germany. In the US I had one of the better employer -sponsored healthcare programs. Even with that, my insurance covered just one night in the hospital. I had a back operation and couldn't move. I was not ready to go home. The doctor contacted my insurer and got an extra night for me. Even with the extra night of care, going home prematurily was a painful experience and outside help was required. A similar operation in Germany would have kept me hospitalized for seven to ten days. Care of the patient takes priority over cost. I had two operatons in a German hospital. Doctor and staff interviews before discharge made sure I was ready to go home. The Doctor is in charge. If he/she decides that the patient requires more hospital care, they get it.

There is no question about American healthcare capability. Availability and accountability is the problem. The "care" part of healthcare is lacking. Profit-driven healthcare programs jeopardize the care required by the patient. There are other factors that tend to increase healthcare costs. When one is insured, some healthcare providers try to squeeze all the costs they can from the insurer. This is fact, not theory.

The push for universal healthcare became political. Insurers are spending much money lobbying the politicians to maintain the status quo. Perhaps the only way that will change is when our elected representatives are subjected to the same provisions/conditions available to the American public. Government workers/representatives have the best programs available, yet they wish to deny these benefits to the people who pay for their programs.

Theories are simply that. The trickle down theory isn't working either.
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyTue Nov 01, 2011 3:08 pm

I agree. with you on some things. The reason this won't work is because government won't have to be on the same playing field. I don't care if the bill does say they have to buy it, they won't. They'll find some way around it just like everything else. I'm glad your experience worked out for you. But read the book. Except for the 'urban legend' part of kidnapping people for parts, which might be a little extreme but makes good fiction, the tier system set up is valid. Look at the number of doctors leaving the practice because they don't want to be under the control of the regulations set up by Obamacare.

I agree that there are problems in the system. But the political side of things wants to say that health care is a right. If everybody got to have all the healthcare they wanted for whatever they wanted, the system would go bust. Just look at the 'Cash for Clunkers' if you want a fine example of how a government run program works. Health care is not a right, just like having a mansion or a Corvette is not a right. Look at the program and who pays for it. Just like everything else (welfare, food stamps just to name two), it'll be the majority of working folks, trying hard to survive paying for those who will not try. Yes, there are needy people and they need to be helped, but you know there are many others who will bilk the system for all they can get.

one of the ways to help solve the problem is give insurance some competition. Allow people to shop around and buy the best covereage available even if it's out of state. Right now, you can't buy coverage from another state which cuts down on the choices.

Anything the government gets involved with will ultimately be abused and cost way too much. Take any program the government runs and tell me if there aren't massive problems. Show me one program that runs smoothly, costs less than a private sector business in the same vein.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyTue Nov 01, 2011 3:52 pm

I have argued this point until I cannot argue any more. Those who say the most have the least understanding of the industry, the corruption and the real cost of healthcare.

The real costs of health care relate to tort reform, pharmaceutical price reform, the wages paid to specialty physicians, the lack of preventive care leading to the more expensive emergency care, profit-making hospitals and overpaid hospital conglomerate executives, lack of care in low income areas of the country whether urban or small towns, the attorney fees for malpractice suits, the high cost of malpractice insurance, the high cost of medical school, the distribution of skills from the technicians through the specialists, the high paid insurance company executives, the lobbyists for insurance, the AMA powerhouse of lobbyists.

Everyone with a financial self interest keeps up the rhetoric that allows us to have low quality health care for the majority of U.S. Citizens or none at all. It is the exception in today's unemployment arena that has basic health care. It is the government health care, Medicare, that is saving seniors from certain death in poverty. The money poured into the rhetoric against universal health care keeps us duped into thinking it is a bad thing. It is nothing but a GOOD thing. Problem is it would impair the ostentatious lives of lawyers, hospital, insurance and pharmaceutical executives (who already have the best health care in the nation along with the Congress who denies us the same benefits.)
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyTue Nov 01, 2011 3:56 pm

The bottom line: a healthy nation requires health that begins with children. Our children do not have affordable health care. Even a poor country such as Panama guarantees children healthcare through the age of 18. It gives them a start...

We all know people who are impoverished by a medical situation after working all their lives and contributing to the wealth of this country and the top 1%. We all know people without insurance who allow their illnesses to reach a level where they are not curable. We all know of people who hack and cough and expose us to their illnesses because they cannot access medical care. We all know people who are unemployed and therefore the entire family is without healthcare.

This is a crime.
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyWed Nov 02, 2011 9:50 pm

I agree with you on all those costs, but you're forgetting the overcharging abuses by the medical practice against Medicare/caid and the cost of servicing illegals. Bully for Panama but I don't see people rushing to Latin America for quality medical care.

The government should not be in charge. They are incapable of handling anything of this size. Look at welfare, look at food stamps, look at any program where the government takes money from some (including those who try) and gives to others (including those who don't care about earning their way). It is overflowing with red tape, countless layers of bureaucracy, no oversight on abuses and with the nature of a lot of people, they will abuse it.

If you're going to argue for the need for health care to give our children a future, then the same argument can be made for the government providing adequate shelter for families, the necessary food, supplies, transportation, education, and eventual employment. Families should not have to earn or work for what they get, should not have to do anything and allow the government to do everything because, as you said, it's for the children.

The government's role should be to make for a level playing field, stop the abuses to the system and basically, get out of the way and let people live their lives. It should not be the overlord of everyone trying to make everyone equal, while they rule from above.

The government can't handle it. Look at what they do now. Right this minute they have two plans for health care. One for the eilite in charge and one for everyone else. Obamacare or any other government run program is going to inlcude a tier system. Those who are deemed important will get preference and everyone else will suffer and costs will skyrocket.

Besides, as the bill is presently written, it is unconstitutional because the federal government is necessitating the purchase of insurance or else face a fine.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 5:35 am

Actually, the fraud and overcharging to Medicare is miniscule; it is an excellent run program. The program cannot be blamed for the list of problems you and I see as the source. Everyone I know who is against universal health care already has exceptional health care for themselves. It's easier to deny those in need when one is not included in that demographic.

This nation has many private corporations with major problems; so major they took this nation into an economic disaster. Many of those problems were related to greed, overpayment of executives, and downright fraud. Yet, those corporations were allowed to regroup and survive.

The purpose of government is to level the playing field, and it does so by meeting the needs of the majority where gaps exist. We don't mind them building roads and bridges and providing defense. Why not leave that in the hands of individuals? Well, medical care is the most important infrastructure and left in the hands of private industry the majority of the nation's population is in jeopardy.

No, universal health care will not cover everything. But it sure beats nothing. Don't worry, the wealthiest will still have the opportunity to get the best health care in the world Nothing ever changes for them. I would rather wait in line for health care than die at home because I have none. I would rather live in a country where all people have some preventive and sustainable health care than fear contagion and pay for services that are needed because they cannot work. I would rather pay from my wages for everyone to have health care than push a grocery cart with all my belongings down the street after a lifetime of contributing to society because of one medical emergency.

I find that those who voice the most objections to universal health care stop the rhetoric once they discover how well the medicare system works for them. And yes, many people do retire in Panama and other countries because they cannot afford to retire in the U.S. The medical care in Panama is comparable to the U.S. Yet, it is a third world country. Their medical people are not gods, however, they are paid the same as any other professional person.

The AMA, the insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the attorneys, the hospitals, the medical equipment dealers, the hospitals - and more - are very powerful lobby groups with deep pockets thanks to the astronomical cost of medical care in this country. Unfortunately, their ads, their lobbying, and their influence on politicians has a major psychological effect on people who are led to their own demise at the gain of those at the top. It's pitiful.
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 2:41 pm

You'd rather wait in line for health care. Please mention this to the woman in Canada who needed to have an operation which meant an early birth of her baby and was told she had to wait. She came to the U.S. You'd rather wait in line for hernia surgery. One of my coworkers needs this operation but she can't get assistance (she was told that if she was a person who came to this country illegally then she could get assisstance. There's a big problem of abuse and something that isn't regulated.)

I'm against universal assistance for the reasons I've listed before. The defense of this country is part of the fed's job not health care, not education, not housing, not employment. It's up to the individual to work for his keep. Which is what we did as we moved across this country in the early days. We didn't rely on government for help. I'm not against caring for those who are truly needy, but do you really want the government to take care of you? Really? Somebody has to pay for all this and it can't just always be the rich. That's the stupidity of this class envy. It punishes those who succeed so why try. They'll always be the rich, just let them take care of the rest of us. That's the thinking of a lot of people. We have enough people abusing and taxing the system as it is. By allowing the government to take over you'll have even more. One of the problems that is going to happen is people ARE going to want it to cover everything from a nose bleed to major cancer treatment and if they don't get it, they'll whine and complain until some politician stands up and again starts spouting about how the system isn't fair and want to include everything. It just won't work. You're going to have a tier system. You're going to see increased abuse, red tape, and ultimately less quality care.

Right now I don't have helath insurance. My job doesn't pay much and we recently switched management companies and the cost of insurance tripled. A few years ago I had an operation to remove a, thankfully, benign cyst and a few problem moles. I'm still paying this bill. Me. Not everybody else. Me. It's going to take me awhile to pay it, but I will. I'm not crying needy or just not paying. I don't want the government to take care of me. I don't want to depend on others for assistance. Right now, in a few ways I am and I don't like it.

I don't see people rushing to Panama or rushing off to England to Canada. I don't see a mass exodus because our health care and insurance is crappy. What I see is lower quality care in those countries and problems that we will have (and more so) if we adopt those systems. Fix the problems that we have, don't scrap the whole system and leave it up to a government that is overflowing with problems on every other front.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Set Apart   Set Apart EmptyThu Nov 03, 2011 3:41 pm

Different perspectives come from different experiences and beliefs. Anecdotes about individual circumstances also fuel beliefs.

The wealthy are not paying government services in this country. The wealthy at the top 1% are paying a very miniscule portion of their income in the form of taxes.

There is no middle class. Wages have stagnated and due to wars, bank greed and deregulation of greedy industries such as housing, we are in a situation where one in every 15 persons in the the U.S is impoverished. They are not paying taxes either; they are rolling down the street with their belongings in baskets.

The "working class," those with jobs, are juggling two and three jobs and/or jobs that no longer pay their basic expenses, borrowing from Peter to Pay Paul. They are paying taxes. Plenty of taxes. They have no capital investments. They've lost their homes. They can't afford fancy CPAs. Yet, they have no affordable medical care.

Unfortunately, the rhetoric labels "universal medical care" as if it's a particular plan. The current plan for serving a majority of U.S. citizens with medical care is a beginning. There's nothing to prevent this plan from being massaged to perfection except political rhetoric of blame and misinformation.

Governor Romney passed a universal health care plan for his state that is working exceptionally well. Since it is not popular as an idea among Republican voters, he has not been bragging about this major accomplishment. If each state had their own, successful plan, that would be great. The reality is that Mississippi cannot afford their own plan and neither can many other states.

I'm not certain, but I believe we were the only developed nation without health care for all its citizens. Many undeveloped countries also attempt to provide health care for its children at a minimum.

I am my brother's keeper. I want him in good health; I don't want him denied insurance for a past illness; I don't want his years of contribution to my lifestyle through taxes to leave him impoverished for one catastrophic illness. Federal flood insurance is mandated to protect me from my own stupidity if I don't choose to have insurance when living in a flood plain. Losing my home is a far lesser loss than my health and the lives of my loved ones.

Universal health care uses the many to provide a more economical delivery of services. Funny how that makes sense for Walmart but not the government.

Now, I am concerned about all the expense issues I mentioned. Those need to be tackled immediately; however, they have high paid lobbyists making sure they are not. I am not going to deny healthy lives to the many because they don't have a lobbyist. In my anecdotal experiences people are dying from lack of insurance, people I love. I live on a pitiful income and without medicare, I would likely die. I want everyone to have the benefits of a medicare type program. I still make co-payments; hospitalization will still wipe me out financially; but I am at least able to attempt health.

It's beyond me how people of less than moderate incomes can possibly think that the working poor can pay for their own health care - now the majority of working U.S. citizens, if they have jobs at all.

In the early days, people had lots of children because many of them died. Many people died at an early age. Plagues and contagion wiped out entire cities. No, just like I believe the world is round, not flat, I believe that health care is here to stay. A healthy population has the capacity to think beyond survival and create a nation with a future.

I do respect opposing opinions. I once believed in the individual. Then I learned that belief was corrupted by the greedy who became wealthier at my expense while feeding me the "individual" mantra. Their individual lives improved while those of the middle class declined. When the Congress has the same struggle for insurance that the average worker experiences, then they can talk about individual choice.

Glad you're here to stir the pot. Diverse opinions are critical to expanded thinking processes. Thanks for the challenge!
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