Anthology update

In dollars:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Stories of Strength by Various Authors (316 pages) Paperback: $15.95 Download: $5.09
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Lulu Creators #6 - Promotional Comic by Lulu Comic Subversives (34 pages) Paperback: $9.63 Download: $0.00
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Images to Brighten Our World by Tsunami Relief Effort (110 pages) Paperback: $34.95
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Lulu Creators #5 - Promotional Comic by Lulu Comic Subversives (32 pages) Paperback: $9.33 Download: $0.00
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	The End of the Oil Age by Dale Allen Pfeiffer (266 pages) Paperback: $17.50 Download: $7.64
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	American Cultures: Readings in Social and Cultural History by Al Smith (462 pages) Paperback: $33.98 Download: $12.50
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Capital Crimes: 15 Tales by Sacramento Area Authors by Kathleen L. Asay, editor, Patricia E. Canterbury, editor (188 pages) Paperback: $15.95
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Twenty Epics by David Moles, Susan Groppi (390 pages) Paperback: $19.95 Download: $7.61
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Promotional Comic - Lulu Creators #4 (Summer 05) by Lulu Comic Subversives (36 pages) Paperback: $9.93 Download: $0.00
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]	Leaves from the Garden by The Egalitarian Minyan of Rogers Park (399 pages) Paperback: $21.00 Download: $5.49

I feel strongly that people should be able to buy the anthology directly from online bookstores. I do not want to have to be involved in sales. I want to promote the anthology and then direct potential buyers to the online stores.

Elynne

Before this escalates into a discussion about who gets what and how much, let me remind everyone about how the idea for an anthology came about.

Pam suggested joining together to produce a book of short novels (novellas) in a bound volume similar to the books produced by Reader's Digest. As the discussion progressed, I agreed to put together a collection of work written by members of the forum and network to showcase their work.

Any sales would be the responsibility of the contributors. There is no point in speculating on what should happen to the money from the sales of the books because the book isn't even at the printers yet.

Rainbow was extremely enthusiastic and wanted to produce a video trailer for the book. The truth is that a trailer will not produce many, if any, sales. The book will sell to friends and family of the contributors and to very few outside the compass of relatives and friends.

The top anthology in the list of best sellers in the above post sold approximately ten copies for every contributor (114 in total). The money raised was due in part because lulu.com agreed to waive their fee so that all the profit went to disaster relief charities. Lulu will not be doing the same for us!

As to the question of the book being available to buy from all the major online stores, the answer is yes, the book will be available to buy online. I will be paying the distribution costs when I buy the ISBN. Until enough books have been sold to cover this cost, the book will be making a loss not a gain. The profit on the book will be very small to keep the retail price of the book as low as possible. The idea that a substantial profit will be made from the book is totally unrealistic. I did all this work as a favour for members of the forum, not to make any money.

Am I the only person who knows how many hundreds of unpaid hours I've already put into this book? Well over a thousand.

~Shelagh

Shelagh,

If there is any profit, I have no problem with it going to you for your dedicated, excellent and invaluable work on this project.

In the mean time, a huge thanks to you as our editor.

I do not agree that it will only be family and friends who will buy this anthology. If we each promote and do it well and if it is available from online stores, why would the general reading public not be attracted to it?

Elynne

This needs to be said, and by someone who has compiled and edited anthologies. I've done a couple so I know of what I speak. These books do not go together magically. It's all long and arduous work, and a labor of love. If there is any money to be made from our anthology, Shelagh deserves all the proceeds. As it is, it's likely she'll never recover her expenses, and certainly will never be compensated for all the work she has put into the project. All of us who have only contributed a story or poem can best show our appreciation to Shelagh by displaying the cover and purchase information on our websites, and when we buy our own copies for gifts or personal distribution to not be concerned with pennies of profit. There is not and will not be profit to go around. We can only do our own part to see that Shelagh recovers her investment in time. Just don't think of this anthology project as a money maker for ourselves, but hold on to what it is, friends coming together in artistic support of one another, with the inspired help from the of one of us, Shelagh, who has made it all possible.

Jim Woods
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Well said, Jim.

From the onset, I expected no financial gain--Shelagh doing the work, and getting it printed. I intend to use the anthology as part of my credentials and feel that is enough. In the anthology, my name will be among esteemed colleagues! I am thrilled that this is so.

I think we all know how little profit is actually involved and I certainly don't begrudge any of it or preferably all of it going to Shelagh directly.

I have no problem whatsoever with the profit going to Shelagh and I feel badly for blurting out that maybe it should go to the site.

My notion here was that other than the modest $$ contributions some of us have made, you're paying for the site and that defraying that cost would be a direct help to you. I wasn't overlooking your time and effort here!

Sorry, Shelagh.

Malcolm

That's okay Malcolm. You probably said what others were thinking. The thing we need to address is what would be the best price for the anthology. The last date for submissions is a week tomorrow and I'm not expecting anything else to come in. The anthology is 292 pages long. Now we have to decide on a price.

It's important to make suggestions now that will lead to a decision later. There will eventually come a time when the price will be fixed. Until then, we need to reach a consensus.

Shelagh, you know all this but some may not, but the cover price is going to have to be twice to three, maybe four times that of the wholesale price, if bookstores are to consider selling it, and that applies to on-line stores and the brick-and-mortars.

Everyone in the chain gets their mark-up.The wholesale price will be determined by what Lulu must get for their cost and profit. To set an unrealistic low cover price is to exclude any interest from retail stores. If retail sales are not a consideration, and if Lulu permits, you can set the cover price more attactively to anthology members who may wish to engage in some level of distribution other than givaway.

Usually though, the barcode includes the embedded cover price, so any cash register used at retail sale points will ring up that cover price. Retail stores will not, or cannot, arbitrarily set a higher price than that coded on the back cover. It's easier for an independent author/bookseller to reduce the price from the published cover price than for the storefront to elevate the price. But then should we order direct from Lulu for one or two copies, the purchase will be billed out at the cover price necessary for retail sale, making it a hardship for us to reduce the price or to give the book away. Just some things to consider.

Jim Woods
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The retail price in this case should be determined on the cost to produce. Once that is established, then mark-ups can be considered to allow for middle-men discounts. To set an arbitrary retail price without knowing the net is not good business.

Thanks for explaining the way it works Jim. I found this to be a real problem with my book on lulu. The recommended retail price by the pricing wizard gave me a reasonable profit that I was willing to reduce to make the book more attractive to buyers. The catch twenty-two was that by doing so, I reduced the profit margin for online stores. I spoke on the lulu help line about this problem and they said to set the price lower if I wanted because they would negotiate a discount with the online stores after the price had been set. I lowered the price by £1 but felt it was still not a very competitive price. We seem to be between a rock and a hard place.

Abe, the business side of this project is not as important as staying friends and for everyone to feel that they got something out of the experience. We have to put friendship above business.

Very good advice, Abe.

Shelagh, I think you hit it square on the head, exactly.

As for me...I am just excited to be a part of it. I will promote it on my website, and email my friends.

Okay here I am late again, and I want to jump in and reiterate what I think I said before, which agrees with most of you in the sense that the proceeds of this project go to Shelagh, and the notoriety gets shared among the WWW (World Wide Writers - that's all of us that are a part of this project). Other anthologies of this sort actually charge individual authors to cover all the costs and they often range from $500-1500 for each contributor and I have seen them much higher than that ($8500 - no kidding).

Shelagh I think the price needs to be reasonable so that folks will buy it, but also has to ensure that your costs are recovered. The way that exchange rates float up and down even makes setting a price a challenge, but I think that even up to $24.95US as it nears the 300 page mark is reasonable. We have to remember this is about pricing/marketing/sales and not us as struggling individuals purchasing, but about the readers in our target markets purchasing the book.

Actually, I think this project is a great opporunity to get everyone credibility and exposure for all of us - a few well placed radio / TV / blogtalk interviews as part of the marketing plan to raise profiles and help to sell a few more books. This book is really an international anthology and has the potential to raise international readership as a result - and each of us can contribute to marketing efforts that will demonstrate that. I think the fact that so many of us are friends here helps to strengthen that - and I cannot wait to read everyone's stories and poems and get promoting it AND get my Christmas shopping done all at the same time!

I must say that I'm very dsappointed to hear that private messages are being sent back and forth between members here. The theme of the anthology is friendship and, as friends, we should be able to be open and honest and willing to share our thoughts with everyone.

One or two of the contributors are afraid that they will not be given their fair dues if the book becomes a best-seller, not because of their contribution, but because of their marketing skills and the time they put into promoting the book.

The best selling anthology on lulu.com sold less than 1,300 copies. You can read about the time and effort that was put into promoting the book here:

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The number of sales to date is 1,266:

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We have half as many contiributors promoting a similar anthology. The estimated sales would therefore be 633. Hardly a best seller.

If anyone can produce any evidence to suggest that we will sell at least 5,000 copies or even 1,000 copies then I will reconsider the sales stategy. As it is, I don't expect the book to sell more than 10 copies per contributor. With 46 contributors, we would do very well to sell 500 copies.

Universal Pathways Magazine is another example of a collectoin of poems and short stories sold on lulu.com. The owner of the magazine decided to sell on lulu.com only and not to buy an ISBN. This is well worth considering. The price can be set at a much lower level because the book will only be available for sale on lulu.com. If the book does well, a second edition could be produced with an ISBN and distributed on all the online stores.

This is probably our best option.

Let us be positive and think general public appeal. I am for our getting an ISBN and making the anthology available on all online bookstores.

Then we will each promote and work for the success of this anthology.

Why have such limited dreams for it before we try?

Elynne

I do not think the Katrina Stories of Strength Anthology is similar to ours in theme.

The public may have been saturated with that theme from the news media in terms of their sales success.

Our theme is universal and timeless. I thought that was the point and that our world wide authors would be able to promote and spread the word about our new anthology to many potential buying publics.

If I am wrong, at least we will have tried in a big way.

Elynne

Don't be disappointed, Shelagh. You know there are always a few who are suspicious of whatever someone else does. The mere fact that you have compiled and edited an anthology such as this is amazing to most of us.

Dick Stodghill wrote:

Don't be disappointed, Shelagh. You know there are always a few who are suspicious of whatever someone else does. The mere fact that you have compiled and edited an anthology such as this is amazing to most of us.

Yes, YES, YES!! I am neither suspicious nor disappointed. I am truly amazed with the feat you are accomplishing, and proud to be associated with the anthology. Whatever you decide as far as pricing and distribution is okay with me; you have much more experience than I, and I bow to your expertise.

I've read with interest the anthology info, and here's my 2 cents:

From the get go, I considered just being a part of the book payment enough. From what I've seen so far, it's very professional looking, and a great vehicle to display our writing talents at no cost to the authors (aside from the time writing the submissions).

I've done sveral books (even fanzines for over 20 years), so I know about all the effort that goes into just setting a book up and preparing it for publication. It is not easy work; and it takes a particular type of talent to pull it off.

I don't know Shelagh, and hadn't had any dealings with her before joining the site. So I can say, completely objectively, that she's done a monumental job, and an excellent one.

One of my Lulu books was 284 pages (I cut 20 pages recently), and Lulu wanted $10.14 to print it (I added 50 or 60 cents for profit). So the very minimum selling price would probably be $20.50 or so. If the price is tripled (more than $30), that might cut down sales. Maybe a midway price of $25 would be okay?

But whatever the cost is, it should be decided by the editor -- that's what they do.

For my part, I wanted to buy ten copies; I don't know if I can buy them all at once, but I'll buy that many all told. And maybe a few more in early 2009.

I'm ambivilent on the ISBN; but if we go with it, I don't mind helping to pay for the $100 or so that it will cost at Lulu. I think the basic marketing plan with the ISBN was around $200; I don't recall as I didn't use any of them.

--Melinda

Hi Melinda,

Thanks for adding some costings for contributors to see just exactly how difficult it is to arrive at a price. I won't be asking for any money for ISBN or distribution costs. I intended buying the ISBN and will do so. As soon as I've loaded the file and the price wizard gives me a recommended retail price, I will post the amount here and suggest by how much we can reduce that price and still leave a reasonable discount for the online stores. I think your estimated price of around $25 is a good one.

Just to let everyone know, the anthology manuscript is almost done. I still need to check through the contents page and send out pdf files. I've already sent out eight pdf files. Only forty to go! LOL!

It does look quite splendid!

~Shelagh

Sounds good, Shelagh! I'm looking forward to seeing how everything turned out, and then having some fun doing a lot of reading.

Malcolm

Thank you for the input, Melinda. It does give a little better understanding of what is going on with price. Way to go, Shelagh! I can hardly wait to get my copies! I don't know how many yet, but some folks will be getting a copy for Christmas and birthdays. Won't they be tickled?

I've just taken a look at the last messages and here's my opinion.

Note: Don't shoot me for speaking out.

I didn't expect to make much money from the project especialy if you think about sharing the profit between 50 authors. lol I don't have a problem with Shelagh keeping the profit after all, she'd the editor and is the one doing the hard work.

I'm just a little miffed that this should have been made clear from the outset and I think some authors might feel cheated.

Hey, perhaps when sales hit the roof, Shelagh could order some items from Vista Print, such a magnets, pens, bookmarks etc. and then send them to the authors to use a promotional tool and a thank you. Anyhow, just an idea.

As for Lulu. I've just published my third book with them, and as this new novel have twice as many pages as the last two, I was suprised at the printing cost. Anyhow, I've come to a decision which I'd like to share with you all.

My last two books have ISBN and are sold in bookstores, listed on amazon ( remember, Amazon only lists SP books now and does not stock and sell.) But I sell more books via Lulu shop and face to face. For this reason I have decided not to purchase a ISBN for my new novel. In my case, it's a waste of money.

I think you should consider the same option for the anthology. We the authors will be selling most of the copies ourselves. It's doubtfull one hundred people will be looking for an anthology and come across ours and buy it. (would be good. but doubtful)

You don't need to buy a ISBN to sell a printed copy of the book on Lulu. But you do need one to list on Amazon and as they now have their own SP printers, (trying to corner the market) they no longer stock or sell our SP books direct to the public.

Publish with Lulu without the ISBN. Send the store url to all the authors, and we'll do the rest.

Another great thing about this, is if the book does take off, you can always get a ISBN number at a later date, just upgarde, pay the cost and Lulu does the rest.