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Al Stevens
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 12:20 am

Al,
you analysis and decision appears to be sound. As you mentioned, timing is important. I read the ms and it is a very good story.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 4:38 am

I appreciate your sharing in detail your thought process and experience making this decision. Like any art, there are those who succeed at all levels and with or without publishers and those who muddle along, doing their best with their talent but not yet reaching their zenith.

I have a finished manuscript of 39,000 words - not enough yet. It's frustrating. It's also frustrating in terms of the process you have already been through. It's difficult to be selected by some small presses unless you write to the formula for a specific genre. That's difficult for me.

My self-published ebooks have not done as well as the ebook with L & L Dreamspell. Unless you are one of the exceptional few who reach stardom overnight no matter how they publish, there is still a benefit to having a "real" publisher - all the reasons you list.

Most of the authors I know who manage to make a decent living from their writing churn out a book a month once they get going. Those are also the authors that have discovered the formula that captures readers and stick to it.

Me, I have a story to tell and write it. It takes me a long time. I also need a good editor as every word I write was carefully chosen and it's difficult for me to see them hit the cutting floor - and impossible for me to cut when just reaching novel length is a challenge. I have also been challenged by covers and formats. I need a publisher.
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 6:10 am

I agree with Al and DK's line of thinking. I, too, need lots of eyes on my work, and lots of help. It's way too glib to tell someone, "Just self-publish and keep all the profits!" This is reminiscent of Lin barking that anyone can do good cover art if they own Photoshop. Even if we have the ability we may not have the time or inclination. My wage-paying job and family responsibilities take priority over learning how to format books for all these different reading devices and uploading them to websites. And, like Al, I do not have the personality to go out and flog them. I'm just not going to view everyone I meet, IRL or online, as a customer.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 10:19 am

I'm not convinced that Musa is a better option than self-publishing for anyone with decent computing skills. If my books are going onto Smashwords, KIndle etc. I want to be in control of prices and royalties.

If the book is going into book stores and chain stores, then I'm up for it! study
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 10:32 am

..


Last edited by Al Stevens on Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:35 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Duplicate)
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 13, 2011 10:33 am

Shelagh wrote:
I'm not convinced that Musa is a better option than self-publishing...
Neither am I . And that's the gamble. And it's why I have the other book subbed at Carina Press. Either way I learned that self-publishing is not the way for me with fiction for all the reasons I already gave.

You can always tell who the pioneers are. They're the ones with arrows in their backs.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 7:39 am

I asked a group of writers who have signed with Musa what factors contributed to their decision. Specifically why they chose Musa over self-publishing. (I did not reveal to them my reasons posted here, and my question was prompted by the concern expressed here.) There were a few responses, but it seems most of them made an optimistic starry-eyed decision in the face of the perils of self-publishing. The publisher offered to post her list, and I took her up on it. Here is what she, Celina Summers, said:

Quote :
Okay, let's give it a shot.

Musa pays 50% royalties for sales from our sites and 50% net from third party sites. Self publishers get 70% of each sale. So the real question is: what does Musa offer for that 20%?

Well, let's start a list:

1--professional editing. Can't argue with that really, since most self-published books are in dire need of editing and the self-publishers who really take pride in their product pay for editorial services.

2--professional cover art. It's hard to argue with a beautiful cover you don't have to pay for. Also, our authors are working with our artists in a collaborative relationship. We don't just give you a cover--we provide a give and take so you get the cover you want.

3--All the interior book design, copyediting, and formatting that most self-publishers and a lot of e-publishers do NOT have. We don't just slap up a word document with a cover.

4--an established platform, complete with strong-selling genre authors and even a USA Today bestselling author.

5--an entree' into review sites that refuse to even look at a self-published title.

6--an established platform enhanced by professional-looking websites and blogs.

7--an active and successful promotions and marketing department that encourages cross-promotions between imprints and authors.

8--Formatting and uploading a book into multiple formats compatible with multiple third party retailers and e-readers.

9--a completely transparent business model, where an author can track their Musa sales in real time and track third party sales weekly, giving the author the opportunity to do something with their writing income they usually can't do. Budget.

10--an author-friendly contract (Or at least the kind of contract I want as an author)

11. Yog's law.

Musa is the result of my years of apprenticeship here in B&BC. When we went into this, I already knew the pitfalls of a start-up publisher and how badly (in my opinion) any new publisher had to work to create a strong, confident presence online. So we didn't start with a piddly one or two books a week release schedule. We started with 26 books two weeks ago, three new releases and 23 Aurora Regency titles. This week is a six-book release schedule. By December, we'll be releasing 7 books a week.

That's my list. Hope it helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 7:54 am

Al Stevens wrote:
Other small presses, such as L&L Dreamspell, and all the agents to whom I submitted rejected the book.
I should correct this statement. Reck House Press, the original subject of this thread, accepted the project. I rejected their offer when I saw the contract.
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 9:59 am

Looks good, Al. Except for physical shelf presence, it's everything a pub should be. And the shelf presence may eventually materialize, too.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 10:19 am

Any publisher who quoted Yog's Law would make me run a mile. The costs of running the kind of set up Celina and her business partners have established are enormous. Yes, they have to work their butts off and they deserve every penny they earn, but the business model is to provide them, the editors, the cover artists, the layout experts with a living wage.

From personal experience, it doesn't matter how well edited your book is. It doesn't matter how brilliant the book cover is. The book will not sell until you have built up a readership. It takes time, Throwing a book at readers and telling them they will love it just does not work. Readers will tell you that they will tell you if the book is any good.

Over at AW, they are obsessed with the idea of becoming full time wrters but they don't have the grit and determination to succeed. They want to send their work off to a publisher who will polish it, add a brilliant cover and market it. Meanwhile they will concentrate on writing the next blockbuster. This is cloud cuckoo land. They are drinking their own brand of Kool Aid.

Al, I wish you well with this crew of professional editors and experienced publishing experts. I'm sure they will do an excellent job. If they are not charging you a penny, then it might turn out to be a wise decision. I've never regretted for one moment signing up with PublishAmerica. It cost me nothing and I learned a great deal. I hope you can say the same about Musa in seven years' time.

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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 10:38 am

Just checked the submissions page. It says:

"We will consider reprints to rights reverted stories."

"Musa will begin by releasing every book in electronic format. We are primarily an electronic publishing house at this time. In the near future, we will be taking books to print for small print runs, we will make the decision initially on which books go to print based upon sales figures and reviews."

If Musa considers reprints, you have nothing to lose by uploading the book to Smashwords/Kindle to guage the response.

"The near future" is a piece of elastic.
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 10:42 am

Shelagh's got some good points, too. Smile

However, about this:

Quote :
If Musa considers reprints, you have nothing to lose by uploading the book to Smashwords/Kindle to guage the response.

Without marketing, I think we can assume the response will be zero. And Al has said he doesn't want to market. So what would be the point? Smashwords and Kindle will always be there once all else fails. I personally look at those venues as precisely that -for the "all else failed."
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 11:14 am

I can give you an excellent example of a self-published mystery/thriller that did nothing at all on Smashwords. The author uploaded the book to Kindle and it made a few sales. Then she made it free on Smashwords and Amazon price matched. The book was downloaded over 9,000 times in the first twenty-four hours. In six days, it had over 40,000 downloads. When the book reverted to its original price, it started to make sales and sold thousands more copies, earning thousands of dollars in royalties. Of course, this will not happen to every book. Her book captured the imagination of readers, who wrote great reviews that generated sales. It is just an example of what can happen not what will happen.

Here's the book:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003PPDB8K/



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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 11:31 am

LC wrote:
Shelagh's got some good points, too. Smile

However, about this:

Quote :
If Musa considers reprints, you have nothing to lose by uploading the book to Smashwords/Kindle to guage the response.

Without marketing, I think we can assume the response will be zero. And Al has said he doesn't want to market. So what would be the point? Smashwords and Kindle will always be there once all else fails. I personally look at those venues as precisely that -for the "all else failed."
Musa is essentially a publisher of books in electronic format and, as such, the ebooks they format will be uploaded to Smashwords/Kindle etc. by Musa. I'm simply saying cut out the middle man.

It stands to reason that Al cannot use Musa's editors to produce epub files that he then uploads himself. He has to allow Musa, and only Musa, the right to upload the files they formatted. He can't copy the edited text and upload it for conversion into e-book format. His contract will tie him and his work to Musa. They would go out of business if used as a free editing service.
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 1:10 pm

Quote :
When the book reverted to its original price, it started to make sales and sold thousands more copies, earning thousands of dollars in royalties. Of course, this will not happen to every book. Her book captured the imagination of readers, who wrote great reviews that generated sales. It is just an example of what can happen not what will happen.

I respect that, and it's encouraging to the self-published author. But I am wondering if the chance of that happening is better/worse/same as the chance of it happening with a publisher, even one as small, and with no shelf presence, as Musa.

And there's still the edit and cover art issue.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 1:36 pm

This thread is very informative!!! Thank you all for your candid analysis and remarks. Very helpful.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 2:14 pm

Shelagh wrote:
I hope you can say the same about Musa in seven years' time.
Three years.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 2:24 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Musa is essentially a publisher of books in electronic format and, as such, the ebooks they format will be uploaded to Smashwords/Kindle etc. by Musa. I'm simply saying cut out the middle man.
They're not using Smashwords as far as I know.
Shelagh wrote:

It stands to reason that Al cannot use Musa's editors to produce epub files that he then uploads himself. He has to allow Musa, and only Musa, the right to upload the files they formatted.
Of course. That's how publishing works. E or otherwise.

They are not producing print editions right off the bat. That comes later. But in the meantime, I have permission to POD my own print editions, using my text and layout with their edits and the cover they design, to send as gifts. They seem to be easy to work with and reasonable about those things.


Last edited by Al Stevens on Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 2:26 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Any publisher who quoted Yog's Law would make me run a mile.
You would prefer a publisher that charges the author for its services?
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 2:41 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Over at AW, they are obsessed with the idea of becoming full time wrters but they don't have the grit and determination to succeed. They want to send their work off to a publisher who will polish it, add a brilliant cover and market it. Meanwhile they will concentrate on writing the next blockbuster. This is cloud cuckoo land. They are drinking their own brand of Kool Aid.
That's a bit of a broad brush. I don't think you can effectively characterize a body of people that large with a generalization such as that. There are several factions there, some of whom do indeed fit your description. But not all.

I tend to avoid the annoying ones, and I stay as far away as I can from the discussions of perceived scams. Just as I try to avoid the discussions here (and there) about politics, religion, cooking, pets, and so on. (I try, but sometimes I get sucked in. Which pisses me off.) I'm interested in writing and publishing. There's some of that being discussed on both boards, and I find both boards to be valuable resources to me as a writer.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 3:26 pm

Shelagh wrote:
I've looked at the royalties structure and wonder why you are giving Musa money to produce your ebook.

"Smashwords—85% of what THEY get from other sites. So if they get 50% from Barnes and Noble, for example, they pay us 85% of that. And we pay you 50% of that."

Why not upload the ebook yourself and have 100% royalties?

http://musapublishing.blogspot.com/p/royalties.html
Maybe I didn't quote enough from Musa's website/blog. The ebook goes out to Kobo, Sony, Diesel etc. via Smashwords.

Fictionwise charge $50 before they pay anything:

"Fictionwise—50% AFTER the book sales supersede $50. Fictionwise charges each publisher a 50$ publishing fee, Once you hit $50 in sales you get 50% of what Musa receives."

PRINT—Musa will select books for our print line based upon sales. If your sales reach a certain level, your book will go into print. At that time, for any book sold on our site you will receive 15% of the cover price and through a third party you receive 15% of the net.

Who do you think will receive the highest sales? The best books? The best written books? The most worthy books? Nope. None of those. The authors who work their socks off cajouling, begging, bribing everyone and anyone to go to the website and buy a book. If they can cheat, they will. They'll buy their own books or pay for their friends to buy them if they are blocked from multiple purchases. Whatever it takes, they'll do it. Anyone not interested in marketing won't be able to compete. That's the way it is.


Last edited by Shelagh on Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 3:32 pm

Shelagh wrote:
The ebook goes out to Kobo, Sony, Diesel etc. via Smashwords.
My mistake. I knew that but I forgot it. It gets worse as you get older.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 3:34 pm

Al Stevens wrote:
Shelagh wrote:
Any publisher who quoted Yog's Law would make me run a mile.
You would prefer a publisher that charges the author for its services?
I think Yog's Law is redundant. No need to quote it.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2011 6:39 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Al Stevens wrote:
Shelagh wrote:
Any publisher who quoted Yog's Law would make me run a mile.
You would prefer a publisher that charges the author for its services?
I think Yog's Law is redundant. No need to quote it.
She didn't quote it. She cited it. I'll quote it, because I think there is a need lest it go misunderstood:

"Money should flow toward the author."

I see no redundancy in that.
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PostSubject: Re: Reck House Press   Reck House Press - Page 2 EmptySat Oct 15, 2011 12:12 am

I agree Al. The author can slave over his/her work for months, even years. Lots of effort involved. Then the author is supposed to be concerned about the publisher making a profit. Of course they're in busines to make a profit and that's understandable, however unless the publisher shows some concern for the author earning money, it is not balanced, not a win-win.
In the case where a publisher makes their money off purchases by the author, that sucks.

If a publisher accepts a book for publication, it should be worthy of publication, and a commitment made to sell it to the public. If they cannot project enough sales from the public to cover their costs and make a profit, they should not publish the book.
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