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 Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!

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Karina Kantas
Sue
Brenda Hill
Malcolm
KathleenGageSpeaker
Jeffrey J. Mariotte
kimsmith
Don Stephens
lin
Jenny
Abe F. March
Pam
Shelagh
zadaconnaway
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 10:31 am

It looks as if Barnes and Noble have now teamed up with Amazon.com - the "buy" button has been removed from my page on their site. I suggest everyone checks for their own book!
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Pam
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Pam


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Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 10:37 am

In Canada our competition to Amazon is through Chapters Indigo ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] they ship all over the world, but most of your books aren't on there. Something to look at; there are lots of Canadian readers with sympathies to the UK, US and who absolutely hate (and Canadians don't hate much do they) some of the big corp overlords.
I am already into some work with Chapters and will let you know what I find out.
Amazon & Kindle -> bad
Books -> good
Pammy's gettin' grumpy.
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 10:39 am

And Jenny is blazing... the "buy" link has been removed from Waldenbooks.com too! The only place anyone can purchase my book is from PA. I'm asking for my rights back - as this constitues a breach of contract, albeit at no fault of my publisher.
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lin
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lin


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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 10:43 am

I'd hold off on that, Jenny. Read my post above about selling as third party and think it over.

I'm sending a letter about that to Angela and trying to spread the idea.

I didn't think the competitors would hold out on this thing. Though B&N could have used it to help their competitiveness.

I think going around them is the only thing writers can do. But shooting our own feet or infighting with our own publishers is probably counter-productive.

(And this advice is from a known hot-head and self-defeating troublemaker :-)
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 10:57 am

I also understand that books published by Whiskey Creek Press have also had their "buy button" pulled.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 11:14 am

THIS EFFECTS ALL Print on Demand Publishers!!!!!
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 12:02 pm

Yes, Don, I appreciate that. However, if you read PA's email to its authors, it states that it is going to build stronger ties with Barnes and Noble, Waldenbooks etc. Both B&N and Waldenbooks have now followed Amazon's lead, which invalidates PA's contracts with its authors, albeit through no fault of their own. I posed a question on the PA messageboard. Infocentre pulled it and have locked me out of the forum. It does not inspire confidenence, nor does it offer any support to PA's authors.

It's a well known fact that it is almost impossible to get a PA book into a bookstore. The fact that they are now only available from PA's website lowers our chances of sales - in fact - it makes it impossible for us to market our books. While this is not PA's fault, I'm still of the opinion that pulling legitimate questions posed by PA authors from their messageboard is not the way to go.
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Jeffrey J. Mariotte
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 3:26 pm

As an independent bookseller this isn't something I say often--but in this case it wouldn't hurt to stand back and look at Amazon's reasons for doing this. They're a vicious, cutthroat business, but they do have business reasons for most of their actions.

Based on my experience in almost every facet of the book/publishing industry, here's what I think is behind this move. Their costs of doing business are essentially the same for every book they sell. My most recent novel was published by HarperCollins, a very major publisher. It came out last November. It's been in Amazon's top 10,000 titles almost from the moment it was listed, 7 or 8 months before publication, and I don't think it's ever ranked below 20,000. You can never tell precisly what Amazon is selling, but I'd have to assume that it's done fairly well for them. They've probably sold a few thousand copies.

I've had plenty of other books that have not performed nearly as well on there, but they're all from major publishers and have at least some sort of minimal publicity effort behind them--many are also based on hit TV shows and have that built-in fan base as well.

I'm far from a NYT best-seller, of course--strictly midlist.

Your average self-published or POD-based publisher's books, however, have little to no promotion beyond what the author can accomplish, and with a few notable exceptions, no built-in audience. They might sell a few dozen or, with luck, a couple hundred copies, on Amazon.

But Amazon's cost to list the self-published book, my mid-list book, and the latest Stephen King or John Grisham blockbuster, is exactly the same. Sure, there might be some advertising for the King or Grisham, but that's most likely footed by the publisher, not by Amazon itself. Their main cost of doing business is hiring someone to input the info they receive from the publisher, or from Ingram, and paying the people who maintain the system. Then there's the order fulfillment, shipping, etc., but that only kicks in once a sale is made so it's covered by that.

Given this, it's not a surprise that they're looking to boost the income they earn from POD titles. If they're putting the same $5 (that's just for the sake of argument) into listing King, me, and a self-published title that's going to sell 11 copies, they're going to want to maximize what they can make on that self-published book. They'd be doing a disservice to their stockholders if they didn't look for an angle.

In this case, they're figuring that the self-published author is paying someone to print their book, so why not pay them? That way the book is a profit center for them instead of a loss, or at best a wash.

If they owned a major offset printing company, they might be trying to squeeze Random House, Harper, and Simon & Schuster as well. Give 'em time...

I realize that this isn't necessarily helpful to those of you affected adversely by their decision. But in business, it never hurts to look at why decisions are made so we don't just assume they're evil for the sake of being evil.

Jeff
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 3:58 pm

Hi Jeff,

I follow your reasoning to a point but there is a flaw in your argument. Last autumn, before I had finished editing The Power of Persuasion, I contacted Amazon and asked if they would be extending the Booksurge programme to authors outside the US. They wrote back and said, yes, that was their intention.

They haven't done that. Instead they are trying to bully the exisiting US based POD publishers to change their printer from Lightning Source to Booksurge.

Maybe this will backfire. Time will tell.


Last edited by Shelagh on Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 8:29 pm

Jenny wrote:
It looks as if Barnes and Noble have now teamed up with Amazon.com - the "buy" button has been removed from my page on their site. I suggest everyone checks for their own book!

I just checked Barnes and Noble's site for my book, and it is still being offered. As far as I know, Target, Walden and Borders are all in league with AMazon, though. I don't have any of them listed on my sites anymore as 'where to buy'.


Last edited by zadaconnaway on Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 8:44 pm

Zada,

You’re right Barnes and Noble has no affiliation with Amazon, they are a direct competitor. Walden, Borders, Target and many others use Amazon for their online orders so they have no choice but to follow suit.

Jenny,

PA has always censured their message board, that’s the main reason I rarely if ever post there. Five years ago it was a great board for exchanging ideas on writing, but anytime someone posted anything that questioned PA, it was pulled, if it was negative about PA the author was banned from the board.
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 29, 2008 8:58 pm

That's an interesting perspective, Jeffrey, but I doubt it's what's behind this.

They continue to LIST the books, just not selling them directly. Which means they now plan on paying to list the books, but no make any money off them. Go figure.

It's a bold, ill-conceived move to drive people to Booksurge, which suffers in comparison to lightningsource because their boks look crappy and they aren't very good at the business end of things.

They're trying to be a totally vertical monolith--controlling books from submission to sales and nudging out superior competitors because of their size. (They're right across the lake from Microsoft...think they don't pay attention?)
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 12:58 am

Jenny,
I share your concerns.
I think we all need to keep in mind that the dispute is between PA and Amazon. Until that dispute is settled, one way or another, we can continue to speculate about all the what if's. Yes, we have all been affected already by Amazon's dropping the "Buy" button.
Using one of those "Ifs," If PA drops Amazon then I agree with Jenny that our contract has been violated and we may have cause to cancel it.
I'm of the belief that "with every adversity, there is the seed of an equivalent or even greater benefit." In this dispute, I believe if we look for a benefit we will find one.
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 1:32 am

Abe,

Although I can't post on the PA board, I can read the public forum. Another PA author has posed the same question as me - however their post remains for the time being. I thought I'd copy it here, because it does raise some valid issues over the status of our contracts.

"The move by Amazon and the counter move by PA puts us, the authors, in a checkmate. I can understand why PA made the move , but it does deprive us, the authors, of a large segment of the marketplace.

Another negative aspect of PA’s decision is the damaging light it casts on our work. With Amazon still posts our books on their website, but they're not available for sales, the public may be led to believe that Amazon no longer thinks our books are worth selling at any price. I’ve seen books listed on their website that indicated they were no longer available for sale. I figured they didn’t sell, so Amazon no longer tried to sell them. And if Amazon didn’t want to sell them, then I probably didn’t want to buy them either, even if I could get them from B & N.

My opinion is that there isn’t a clear answer to the problem that faces all of us. With the loss of a market comes reduced revenues for PA. With reduced revenues comes reduced service. Perhaps a viable solution would be for PA to allow their authors to have an early termination of their contract so that they can place their book with a publisher that isn’t so closely tied to a printing facility. For many of us, that might mark the end of our book, possibly me included; however, if I had that option, I would rewrite my books and properly edit them so they might sell better. I’ve learned a lot in the two years since my first book came out and I think I do a much better job of writing than I did in the beginning. However, re-editing a book isn’t allowed, so I’m stuck with my initial work."
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 3:40 am

We seem to be getting half a story. I clicked on the "Add to shopping list" on Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine on amazon.com:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and this appeared on the screen:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Mr. Planemaker's Flying Machine
Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.
Date last added to cart: No date on file for this item
Currently unavailable

Then I clicked on the See all buying options:

20 used & new from $18.15

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Have one to sell?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

and pulled up this page:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Although my book is available on amazon.co.uk, I always advise buyers to buy through the marketplace. It seems to me that amazon.com is doing the same -- advising customers to buy through the marketplace.

Surely, Amazon can use whatever marketing ploy they think will produce the greatest profits. If selling through the marketplace works for them, it really doesn't disadvantage the author. Making a song and dance and saying that this devalues books in the eyes of the buying public is supplying the bullets to be fired at.

We should sit this out and see what happens. Amazon are in the business of selling books. We can't dictate our terms: the long tail only makes up 25% of all sales. It's up to Amazon to decide how to maximise the profits from the sale of books in their database that provides 25% of total book sales. Whatever agreements are made between POD publishers and online booksellers is out of our hands.

The book is still available to buy on amazon.co.uk:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 5:04 am

Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't comfortable buying through Amazon's market place. I've ordered a book via that facility only for the vendor to take my money and not provide the goods. Ok, that is probably an exception rather than the norm, but Amazon is still one of, if not, the biggest online retailer of books. This will affect thousands of POD published authors.

While I agree our hands are tied, until such time as the POD houses and Amazon try to resolve this issue, it doesn't help us market our books.

This from Publishers Lunch:

POD Publishers Told to Sell Directly Through Amazon, They Have to Use Booksurge
Amazon has tried a number of tactics to push the print-on-demand services of their Booksurge subsidiary and now the company is using its leverage in the marketplace to drive that business. For the past month the e-tailer has been explaining their new policy to publishers who use print-on-demand: To have a direct "buy" button that lets customers purchase POD books from Amazon rather than from third-party sellers featured on the site, those books must be printed and fulfilled by Booksurge.

Spokesperson Tammy Hovey tells the WSJ, "It's a strategic decision. What we're looking to do is have a print-on-demand business that better serves our customers and authors. When we work with some other publishers, it's not truly a print-on-demand business." She "declined to provide specifics," according to the Journal, but "said she doesn't consider the move an ultimatum."
The new policy was first brought to light through a coordinated blogging effort by some of the affected POD publishers. Co-owner of POD publisher BookLocker.com Angela Hoy has the longest post on her WritersWeekly zine. She reports on a conversation with a Booksurge salesperson who "admitted that books not converted to BookSurge would have the 'buy' button turned off on Amazon.com, just as we'd heard from several other POD publishers who had similar conversations with Amazon/BookSurge representatives."

There are no accounts yet of the policy being imposed on traditional publishers that also use Lightning Source or other print-on-demand vendors; by the current accounts the moved is aimed at independent publishers whose focus is POD books as well as self-publishing competitors to Booksurge such as Lulu.com. (Separately, Amazon has been working since mid-2006 to get mainstream publishers to use Booksurge for print-on-demand books sold through the e-tailer, for traditional pur poses--out of print books; large print; etc.--as well as to fulfill "demand spikes" when a regular title is temporarily out of stock.) Ingram and their Lightning Source operation have worked closely with Amazon in the past in a variety of ways, including packing orders with Amazon packages and labels.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 6:03 am

Hi Jenny,

At the moment, I'm waiting for The Power of Persuasion to be listed on all the online stores. Since Lulu are presently forming new agreements with Amazon, it will be interesting to see how a new book is listed on the Amazon sites compared with existing books. There does seem to be a conflict of interest: Lightning source have printers in the UK as well as the US; BookSurge do not. I shall watch the way things develop and hope for the best!
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 7:40 am

Me too. But as someone said on the PA forum. This might be an oppotunity to terminate our contracts and rewrite our books, incorporating eveything we have learnt in the meantime.

And that's exactly what I would do!
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Pam
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 7:41 am

It's interesting. I have ordered stuff from Canada's arm of Amazon (most recently some of the books you folks have written). I received the first two last week, and then yesterday got this message about Brenda Hill's book...

Quote:


Hello from Amazon.ca.

We're still trying to obtain the following item[s] you
ordered on February 28 2008 12:47 PST (Order #xxx-xxxxx):
Brenda Hill
(Author) "Ten Times Guilty" [Paperback]
You have unique (and excellent, of course) taste, and
this item is difficult for us to get our hands on.

Still want it? We'll keep on trying. You'll still be able
to cancel at any time before we ship it. If you want to cancel the item now, please click the link below:

END QUOTE

Cheeky blighters, I think. They have actually accepted the order and then in a back peddling way was working out of it.

I understand business needs to do business. I also understand that this puts added pressure on each of us to market differently; but it does not mean that we have to work harder. We are all writers/authors/scribes, and when you are a compulsive about it (as I think many of us our - that's why we are so darned passionate), you must continually scan the horizon (as we have been doing here), then adjust your sails as needed, and push on.

As much as this change from Amazon is bloody awful, it is also going to force us to be a litle more creative, inspired and doggedly determined to market ourselves and our books. In my case, one of the things that I am doing is forcing the issue open, contacting lots of people, but I know that the spin off will not be that Amazon changes its mind. It'll be that people think about books, our books, about reading and sharing stories as a way to connect with the larger world. And in the end, actually, that'll help us all sell more books...

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Jeffrey J. Mariotte
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 8:06 am

lin wrote:
That's an interesting perspective, Jeffrey, but I doubt it's what's behind this.

They continue to LIST the books, just not selling them directly. Which means they now plan on paying to list the books, but no make any money off them. Go figure.

But have they listed new titles since this decision was announced, or just not made the effort to delete listings they're not selling anymore (which they probably won't do anyway because, as Shelagh points out, they're still selling them through other channels)?


lin wrote:
It's a bold, ill-conceived move to drive people to Booksurge, which suffers in comparison to lightningsource because their boks look crappy and they aren't very good at the business end of things.

Of course it is--that's the whole point. They want to make more money off books they're currently not making much from. One can argue with their strategy, but it's hard to argue with their goal. Unfortunately, giant companies like Amazon and Wal-Mart do this sort of thing all the time (Google Wal-Mart and Vlasic pickles to see how they play it), because they've convinced vast segments of society that it's okay to abandon independent businesses in favor of monolithic entities.

In the case of self-published authors, and a lot of small POD-based presses, you're more vulnerable to Amazon's games because it's been a major source of sales. For most professionally published books, Amazon is still only 6-10% of the market--a big chunk, but not one that gives them as much power as over a market they might control 40-70% of.

Jeff
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 8:31 am

You may well be right Pam.

I think if authors pull together, they can make a vast difference in how their books are marketed and sold. I hope a solution is on the horizon.

Even the top selling authors only put out so many books a year, and I know I can read much faster than they can produce them. Many people read only one genre, and when they have read all that the mainstream publishers/authors have out, they must turn to lesser known authors.

There has to be a market there somewhere, it is just a matter of presentation I think. But I have been known to be wrong on occasion!
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 8:35 am

Jeffrey J. Mariotte wrote:
Unfortunately, giant companies like Amazon and Wal-Mart do this sort of thing all the time (Google Wal-Mart and Vlasic pickles to see how they play it), because they've convinced vast segments of society that it's okay to abandon independent businesses in favor of monolithic entities.


Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 892798 As an aside Jeff, I had to look up the Walmart/Pickle item. I have this love/hate relationship with Walmart as I am sure many of us do. Hate to support them but love their prices. Hate the quality of lots of their stuff, but again, love their prices. We have seen many examples of this bullying in our neck of the woods, too. Very sad.
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Pam
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 8:37 am

Zada I think that you are right. There is a market out there; in part it's having the know it all, sticktoitiveness and funding to make it work for you. And good books, lots of good books. Keep writing!
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Jenny
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 11:07 am

Paw Prints Press has now joined the list of casualties as a result of Amazon's decision. Who will be next? Whiskeyrose Press? Ellora's Cave? Samhain Publishers?
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!   Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 30, 2008 11:18 am

Most of the way down the page, here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
there is a posted copy of Willem Meiners response to Amazon. He basically tells them "Nuts" and it has been verified that this is an actual copy of the email sent by him to Amazon as Publishamerica's response to the strong arm tactics.
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Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!! - Page 2 Empty
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Amazon putting the squeeze on POD publishers!!
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