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Dick Stodghill
LC
Carol Troestler
Shelagh
Abe F. March
Sue
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Sue
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Sue


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PostSubject: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 11:35 am

The following came across my Facebook home page from one of my friends there. I thought it was interesting. I didn't check out his info. His Facebook profile addy is attached to his name. If you check him out, let us know.

Quote :
David W. Griffiths
The average for traditionally published book is 500 copies (Publisher's Weekly).



After posting this I asked him where he found that information. Below is his answer. Still intersting in my estimation.

Quote :
David W. Griffiths also commented on his status:

"No, I believe I read it on FonerBooks (Morris Rosenthal). I read elswhere that it is about 170 for self published books."



Last edited by Sue Sunshine on Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added to post)
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 1:26 pm

Sue,
when I was trying to get permission to use a song in my book, they made calculations based on a minimum of 500 books. That may be a standard.
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Sue
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 1:33 pm

David added this to my page.

Quote :
"The average book in America sells about 500 copies” (Publishers Weekly, July 17, 2006)."

That was in 2006. Wonder if it is still the same 3 years later.

Yes, Abe, it does look like the standard, even now.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 1:56 pm

The ten awful truths about book publishing (2009):

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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:18 pm

Shelagh, good article.

I think we are pretty reality oriented here.

Carol
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:26 pm

<< The average for traditionally published book is 500 copies (Publisher's Weekly). >>

No idea if that's true or not, but either way, what's the point? What should we do with that information? It's as useful as saying the average shirt price is $9.99.

Re the Scribd article - it, too, said a whole lot of nothing. First it says that there's an explosion of books, most of them being POD (aka self-published), and then it says that retail shelf space is increasingly limited due to all those books. Well, no kidding. Not that retail shelf space was ever very accessible to self-published books. Then it throws out meaningless "facts" like "most books are sold by authors." Would those be the authors of the explosion of POD books? If so, again ...duh?
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:40 pm

The facts are only meaningless to those incapable of drawing their own conclusions. If opinions based on fact are stated, then it's easy to say, "that's just your opinion."

By presenting the facts, it's up to the reader to make sense of the facts.

I recently started a discussion on the Published Auithors Network on LinkedIn about how a self-published author signed a contract with Warner Books. That discussion provoked members to question the membership of the group and suggest that the group's name should be Self-published Authors Network. Some even wanted to know the ratio of self-published authors to commerically-published authors. So, I set up a sub group: Self-published Authors. This sub-group currently has 29 members. The main group has 856 members!

Why do mid-list authors feel so threatened by self-published authors? Do they read statistics shown in the linked-to article about the sudden rise in the number of books published and panic? Or do they look at their royalty checks and look around for someone to blame for the low sales of their books?
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LC
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LC


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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:43 pm

Shelagh wrote:
The facts are only meaningless to those incapable of drawing their own conclusions. If opinions based on fact are stated, then it's easy to say, "that's just your opinion."

Color me slow today, but I don't get what conclusion I'm supposed to draw from knowing that "traditionally published books sell an average of 500." Ok ...is that good? bad? What?
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:51 pm

Sue, who began this thread, is a new publisher and is looking at expectations.

Carol
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:54 pm

Carol Troestler wrote:
Sue, who began this thread, is a new publisher and is looking at expectations.

I understand that, but how does the statement "the average traditionally published book sells 500 copies" help her in any meaningful way? Does genre matter? Does retail bookstore placement matter? Is the average skewed by a few blockbuster authors?

I'd think she'd want to know how many books by micropublishers selling in the retail arenas she is able to crack sell, instead.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 3:58 pm

LC wrote:
<< The average for traditionally published book is 500 copies (Publisher's Weekly). >>

No idea if that's true or not, but either way, what's the point? What should we do with that information? It's as useful as saying the average shirt price is $9.99.

Re the Scribd article - it, too, said a whole lot of nothing. First it says that there's an explosion of books, most of them being POD (aka self-published), and then it says that retail shelf space is increasingly limited due to all those books. Well, no kidding. Not that retail shelf space was ever very accessible to self-published books. Then it throws out meaningless "facts" like "most books are sold by authors." Would those be the authors of the explosion of POD books? If so, again ...duh?
I underlined the words "meaningless facts" to show that you were referring to the Scribd article. I responded to that statement, not to the point about average sales. The example I gave illustrates the irrationality of mid-list authors. Self-published authors may be swamping the market with the number of titles published but not with the number of copies sold!
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 4:06 pm

Well, I have no idea what the authors you know are threatened about. If they think self-pubbed authors are cutting into their sales, then "irrational" is probably a good descriptor. Who cares what the average book sold 10 or 20 years ago, anyhow. It's immaterial to the present challenge of selling the number of books a publisher requires to keep it in print.

I don't consider any explosion of books, POD or traditional, as my competition. I consider competition to be books in the same genre and that have the same accessibility to my customer base.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 4:15 pm

LC wrote:
I don't consider any explosion of books, POD or traditional, as my competition. I consider competition to be books in the same genre and that have the same accessibility to my customer base.
I agree. Book Copies 613632
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 4:21 pm

You'd think that would be obvious, but I've actually read a lot of articles, usually published by people selling authors internet marketing services and marketing guides, that scream about the Giant Explosion of Books ("estimates have it at two million a year!!!) and how you need to buy their stuff to make your book competitive. Sad that people fall for this.
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Sue
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyWed Jul 22, 2009 8:23 pm

The reason I posted what I did was that I found the information interesting to me and thought, perhaps, others might also.

I had heard a while back, that if you went with a traditional publisher you sold more books. I didn't think that was necessarily true. I don't really know. I assumed lesser-known traditional publishers sold less books than the more well-known publishers. However, it appears according to the statements that I posted, this isn't as I assumed. The average is 500 (give or take) no matter how well known the publisher is. I was not comparing to any other forms of publishing such as self-publishing, vanity, etc.

I just found it interesting, especially when I saw Publishers Weekly.

Quote :
Color me slow today, but I don't get what
conclusion I'm supposed to draw from knowing that "traditionally
published books sell an average of 500." Ok ...is that good? bad? What?

LC, I wasn't drawing any conclusions or stating whether it was good or
bad. I wasn't expecting anything from anyone else either. I just
found that an interesting fact (?) so I posted it. Do all posts have
to have a motive?
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyThu Jul 23, 2009 3:52 am

Sue,

You might find this discussion on WritersNet helpful:

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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyThu Jul 23, 2009 5:17 am

Here's hard facts. Mystery Writers of America has 3,000 members. In June 36 books by members were published. In July it is 29 (all based on release dates and all from major trade publishers). A year ago there were far more.
Most of the 36 and 29 will have poor sales, that is indisputable. Stephen King, Lawrence Block, Robert Parker, Janet Evanovich, James Patterson and a couple of others will have big sales figures. This is reality, not supposition.
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Sue
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyThu Jul 23, 2009 10:24 am

Thanks for the link, Shelagh. I checked it out and it was very informative. Gave me food for thought.

Thanks again.
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Malcolm
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyThu Jul 23, 2009 7:26 pm

How are self-published books swamping the market and threatening mid-list authors?

It seems unlikely that any self-published book is ever in direct competition with a mid-list book because the former isn't reviewed or mentioned in mainstream publications or displayed in many stores or catalogues, while the latter might be.

So how does this work. Are the self-published books, which--as the stats show, I believe--selling an average of only 99 copies each siphoning off just enough readers by their sheet volume that the mid-list authors are the first to feel the impact?

Just curious.

Malcom
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyThu Jul 23, 2009 7:42 pm

I still say the day belongs to the those with name recognition, celebrity support, reviews that are respected and publicity.

It takes a real fuller brush salesman to hawk a self-published and/or vanity book and make sales. It takes the money for an Infomercial that runs at 3AM.

Personally, I don't think a lot of books hurts anyone. Just like in real estate, I think the 80/20 rule applies: 20% of the books are responsible for 80% of the sales (could be off since publishing is a bit unique).

What hurts a little are the number of books published and seeking shelf space that are poorly written and poorly edited. That gives stores a sour taste for self-published, vanity and small press books. POD provides the opportunity to produce a poor quality book without going broke. Print runs and financial investment (substantial royalties) demand the publisher's support to get them sold and recoup costs and make a profit. Remainders are a drag on the profits. Returns are a drag on the profits. Therefore, large publishing houses are careful; they only want to publish blockbusters and repeat blockbusters.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyFri Jul 24, 2009 4:59 am

As mentioned in a previous thread, I still think it an idea to list the books by authors on this forum. This forum has gained recognition and often comes up on Google searches. The recognition of "published authors" could benefit those associated with it.
The competion is keen and that's not going to stop. Collaboration in some manner could be beneficial.
I realize that the "Gallery" does list the books, but I don't believe they are presented without a special search.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyFri Jul 24, 2009 5:05 am

Abe,

There is also the featured member list which features many of us here with our books.

Carol
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LC
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyFri Jul 24, 2009 5:59 am

Sue Sunshine wrote:
LC, I wasn't drawing any conclusions or stating whether it was good or bad. I wasn't expecting anything from anyone else either. I just found that an interesting fact (?) so I posted it. Do all posts have to have a motive?

I didn't mean that you had a motive, I was just commenting on the quote itself. It was a snippet that I'd have liked to have more info on, such as the calculations behind it. The followup quote you posted implied that the guy who originally made it didn't even seem to remember where he read it, much less know how it was arrived at.

All three of my books had P/L calculations made based on their specific markets. Sales goals and expectations were set based on their markets. I cannot expect to reach the numbers that more popular subjects have; likewise, if I fall short of the market share my pubs want, the books will go out of print. Averages of millions of other books mean nothing.

Small traditional houses can reach as large a market for a particular subject as big houses; my nonfic pub is proof of that. It depends on how aggressive and effective their sales force is.
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Sue
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyFri Jul 24, 2009 11:00 am

LC,
Quote :
Small traditional houses can reach as large a
market for a particular subject as big houses; my nonfic pub is proof
of that. It depends on how aggressive and effective their sales force
is.

I agree!!!!!
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Book Copies   Book Copies EmptyFri Jul 24, 2009 1:17 pm

In 1998, when I wrote the first draft of The Power of Persuasion, it was widely accepted that first time authors' books sold an average of 1,800 copies. Ten years on that average has apparently dropped to 500 copies. Rather than assuming that the upsurge in the number of titles from self/vanity publishing has reduced this average, I would take the view that sales of books by mid-list authors are being lost to the inflated sales of blockbusters. It is just my opinion and I do not have any facts or figures to back up my assumption.
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