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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyThu May 14, 2009 3:42 pm

This is not a science group, so I don't expect most folk here to understand the mathematical formulae in my paper.

But this group does have more common sense than many I've met elsewhere. If the evidence is clearly there that Alpha Centauri CAN hold up to FOUR terrestrial sized rocky planets like our Earth:

http://www.astroscience.org/abdul-ahad/extrasolar-planets.htm

Then there are some out there still boasting discoveries of earth-like planets that are 20 light years out. And more importantly, dismissing the clear possibilities of a New Earth orbiting the Sun's closest neighbor of Alpha Centauri as a likely place to find the Earth's twin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w7NUsBcgyw&feature=channel_page


Last edited by A Ahad on Thu May 28, 2009 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyThu May 14, 2009 5:30 pm

You are so very right about non science types understanding the calculations. But I don't see where what you propose can be labeled as 'impossible'. The impossible does come true sometimes. What you put forth in your paper seems plausible to me.

The question I would have is if the gravitational pull of the star would be enough to keep the little planets from escaping?
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 12:30 am

Zada,
For the benefit of those who are not familiar with this debate let me first of all just say this.

Your child has reached kindergarten age (we call nursery school age here in the UK). You're looking to admit him/her to the nearest school to your home for your convenience. You don't dismiss the schools within 5 minutes walking distance from your house ... and start looking at ones 3 to 5 miles out on the other side of town?
That's what I'm talking about. These guys are looking hundreds of light years out for a planet and not really bothering with the ones that may be found just 4 light years away.

The problem is actually many fold, mostly ignorance. In plain english, my paper said:

1. Alpha Centauri is likely to have a New Earth, so we should not dismiss it;

2. Here are the reasons why we haven't been able to find it so far;

3. This is the approach we need to take to be able to locate it;

4. We need a space-based telescope system to hunt for it, using new kinds of masking techniques.

My paper was eventually cited in a scientific Journal. Oooh! Very Happy

Journal of the Optical Society of America, N. B. Thomas, "Achieving resolution beyond the diffraction limit of telescopic optics with remote masking," J. Opt. Soc. Am. A 26, 437-442 (2009). My paper's results were cited on pages 3 & 13 of that article. You can read an abstract. To see the full reference you need to download the full article.


At last it seems there is now some momentum. The third paragraph here echoes what I have been arguing since way back in 2004.

"On February 25, 2008, a team of astronomers released a paper on simulation results which support the conclusions of previous studies that multiple-planet systems could have formed in close orbits around both heavy-element rich, Alpha Centauri A and B. Their simulations suggest that at least one planet in the one to two Earth-mass range could have formed within orbital distances of 0.5 to 1.5 AUs around either Star A or Star B;"

from: http://www.solstation.com/stars/alp-cent3.htm

But now there is yet another debate: what is the best method of detection? There are many ways we can look for a needle in a haystack. What is the best way? Question


Last edited by A Ahad on Thu May 28, 2009 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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thehairymob
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 7:25 am

Before we go looking for planet outside the solar system should we not first map our owb system first. There are a lot of large planet killers out there that pose a danger to our planet that we have yet to discover. More time and effort should be spent on this by these professionals rather than looking towards the unreachable 20 light years away. At that distance it would take us hundreds of years to send a probe to prove their calculation correct.
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 7:32 am

Abdul, even without scientific training, I think your ideas are quite sound. You are very logical, which I can appreciate. It does stand to reason that there are options that 'tunnel
vision' is causing scientists to overlook the obvious.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March

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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 7:45 am

Ahad,
when you know you're right, stick with it.
You have already shown your genius in a number of ways. Don't underestimate those who are jealous and want to punish by poking fun or trying to belittle your work.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 8:01 am

Nasa has said Mars was an earth like planet before it was hit by another the size of Jupiter.
I used this event in Clay of the Gods. Some feel Mars could be rebuilt to support human life. There is a photo that shows what looks like a hole at the top of Mars?
Read the nasa reports.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 8:10 am

Ahad, I like your ideas, too. Some years ago, I remember reading a scifi novel called The Falling Torch. I can't remember who wrote it, but it had to do, in part, with the colonization of a planet on Alpha Centauri. I loved the description of the people - so much more beautiful than any single race on Earth because the races had all mingled into a "golden" one. Some of the concepts in that novel had a strong influence on my life (and my daughter's, too. I noticed my old copy is now on her bookshelf. We had several very good mother-daughter talks over it while she was still at home.) Anyway, I hope I'm not too off topic. I'm not a scientist, either, but like Zada, I think "it stands to reason."

Ann
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 11:47 am

Thank you all for agreeing.

I did say at the beginning, that common sense always prevails over technical knowledge, and this board is the biggest testimony to this that I've found.

What happens to a planet orbiting around a star in a binary system? The Earth going round the Sun is a straightforward case, since the Sun is a single star. Zada actually hinted at a good point about the 'stability' of planetary orbits, since Alpha Centauri is a binary. We should totally ignore Proxima Centauri since it is both very tiny and very far away from the central A+B pair in the system.

The rules dictate that:

"In a binary system, a planet must not be located too far away from its "home" star or its orbit will be unstable. If that distance exceeds about one fifth of the closest approach of the other star, then the gravitational pull of that second star can disrupt the orbit of the planet. "


I've just drawn a few diagrams on my computer. In the first one, we have two stars A and B (like Alpha Centauri) going round each other, with a planet, P, orbiting the star B:

Politics over scientific truths Binarydemo1


Now, everything here is just fine, since the two stars A and B are very far apart, the gravity of star A cannot do anything disruptive to the orbit of planet, P, as it goes happily around its parent, star B.

In the next scenrio, let's say the two stars orbit each other a bit closer in distance. Then:


Politics over scientific truths Binarydemo2

Notice the orbit of P is slightly elongated, since star A is having a disruptive effect due to its closer proximity. This gets worse as the distance between stars A and B gets smaller:

Politics over scientific truths Binarydemo3


In the final case, things have become so bad, the poor planet P now has been pulled into a "double orbit" that makes it circle around both stars in an "8" shape:

Politics over scientific truths Binarydemo4

Politics over scientific truths Binarydemo5



THE POINT IS THIS:


This is not gonna happen with Alpha Centauri. The system is very much like in the first diagram I drew above. A planet can orbit very happily around either star, without suffering any major disruption to any life that may be evolving there.


Last edited by A Ahad on Fri May 15, 2009 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 12:35 pm

I love these concepts.

I am enjoying the book, The Planets by Dava Sobel. She takes each planet and tells many things, even astrological and historical information. Regarding Jupiter, she speaks of the Galileo spacecraft. "This valiant spacecraft, beset from the outset by numerous difficulties that delayed its launch and threatened its performance, developed a distinct personality that endeared it to the engineers who built it and the astronomers it served."

She goes on: "On September 21, 2003, the day of its demise, Galileo descended into Jupiter's clouds, disintegrated, and scattered its atoms to the Jovian winds."

Ah, Ahad, there is so much to learn about space. We need to keep our creative minds open to many possibilities.

Carol
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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 2:42 pm

You're too smart for me, Ahad. I've never gotten past the "twinkle, twinkle little star" stage.
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 4:02 pm

Laughing
Dick, trust me this is just the basics. Without the dizzying mathematics.


Carol, I do happen to be a big fan of the late Galileo spacecraft that gave us so much knowledge about the Jovian system before meeting its end amongst the cloud belts of Jupiter.


Did you know that virtually all planets orbiting around other stars that scientists claim to have "discovered" have been done so without actually seeing or photographing them in a telescope? That they are all "inferred" and imagined with equations rather than their presence being known physically?

The doppler and radial velocity methods are popular in the detection methods of extrasolar planets, but they ain't gonna be fool-proof enough when it comes to discovering planets circling Alpha Centauri. Here's why.

Suppose we put an ant of this size:


Politics over scientific truths 3375260107_cd428fc86b

Onto the back of an elephant of this size:

Politics over scientific truths African-elephant2


When this ant inflicts a stinging bite onto the skin of the huge elephant, would you expect the elephant to make a reaction? Would the elephant, in fact, bat an eyelid? Question
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P. Gordon Kennedy
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 5:46 pm

Besides binary stars, there can also be binary planet systems. In fact, it could be argued that we live in one. Earth's moon is very large in comparison to the planet (about one quarter the size) whereas the moons of other planets (except Pluto if you still consider it a planet) are rather tiny compared with their host planets. Therefore, it could be argued that the Earth-Moon system is actually a binary planet system.
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyFri May 15, 2009 10:58 pm

Ahad, in the first diagram, with 'P' circling 'B', do they then circle around 'A'? It makes me think of our own system, only with 'P' replacing our moon and 'B' representing our planet, and 'A' representing our sun. Just musing there. But do 'A' and 'B' revolve around anything?
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptySat May 16, 2009 12:19 am

Good points Peter and Zada.

The stars A and B are revolving around each other in space, much like how the Moon revolves around the Earth, and the (Earth+Moon) are also revolving around the Sun.

Here's a diagram straight out of Chapter 7 of First Ark to Alpha Centauri:

Politics over scientific truths World-around-a-world


Peter made a point of the possibility of having 'double planets' in a given system.

The planet orbiting in the habitable zone around Alpha Centauri A (as imagined in my novel) is precisely that! The chapter is in fact headed appropriately, "A world goes around another". Where a giant Jupiter-like planet is orbited by a moon which is of the same size as the Earth and where life has evolved in the strangest way imaginable... (snip - rest is in the book! Smile )
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptySat May 16, 2009 7:58 am

Shame on you, Ahad, teasing us like that! I think the theory is really intersesting.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptySat May 16, 2009 9:23 am

I encourage you all to read Ahad's book(s).
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyMon May 18, 2009 8:52 am

A friend of mine bumped into me the other day and he said, do you know what?

I said what?

He said, you need to start going to science conferences. To properly promote your theories to the ones that matter. The ruling class of this society of ours.

I said, I don't do that.

He said, well you should.

He said, but don't just turn up like all the others.

I said, no?

He said, No, you need to go there with some FLAIR man

I said, what do you suggest?

He said, get a wig with dreadlocks, make sure its sprayed luminous green. Get a pink jacket. Put on some white wellies.

I said, are you nuts?

He said, no. If you make a show of it like I'm tellin you, they'll never forget who Abdul Ahad was and what his scientific theories were! Ever!

I told him, thanks!

Politics over scientific truths 78793
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thehairymob
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyMon May 18, 2009 9:02 am

Yes they might not forget but would they take them anymore seriously than they do now.
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Helen Wisocki
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyMon May 18, 2009 9:13 am

I think your friend has something there! Can't wait to see your next avatar with green dreadlocks and a pink jacket!
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyMon May 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Politics over scientific truths 950944
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zadaconnaway
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyMon May 18, 2009 8:31 pm

Don't forget the 'door knocker' rings and a couple of massive neck chains! You could always top it off with a super fly hat!
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Shelagh
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Shelagh

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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyTue May 19, 2009 2:18 am

Don't forget to chew some straw and carry a piglet under your arm:

Politics over scientific truths 776_barefoot_hillbilly_chewing_on_straw_and_carrying_a_pig

_________________
Politics over scientific truths 81KU-cLOw3L._SX110_ Politics over scientific truths 41C9GeFDNWL._SX110_ Politics over scientific truths 41%2BmGkZJdOL._SX110_ Politics over scientific truths 51eDGllZXhL._SX115_ Politics over scientific truths 41y7VHKoszL._SX115_ Politics over scientific truths 51Zs4N4T4eL._SX115_
Amazon Author Central: Shelagh Watkins
I shall never be old. It doesn't suit me -- ©️Shelagh Watkins
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Rhymer
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyTue May 19, 2009 2:47 am

Well... all of this space stuff is definately over my head. I do have two questions regarding your pictures of the orbit of planets. If you have a situation such as Earth with a moon in orbit and another planet is close enough to elongate the moons orbit until it starts a figure eight type rotation why does the moon not collide with the other planet? Since the moon is said to control or create the waves etc. in the ocean why would this not make for catastrophic results? Of course I am using earth and earths moon as an example. I do agree with you, you make excellent valid points. Look in our own backyard before searching the galaxy
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Rhymer
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PostSubject: Re: Politics over scientific truths   Politics over scientific truths EmptyTue May 19, 2009 2:52 am

I should have read your posts more closely the first time. I went back and read through the posts again and discoverd you had touched a little on the questions I asked. I agree with another post, put on some dread locks and promote your theories to the scientific community.
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