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 The Complete Loss of Common Sense

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alj
Abe F. March
Carol Troestler
E. Don Harpe
A Ahad
lin
Dick Stodghill
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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 8:20 am

A Stodghill Says So blog:
If further proof is needed that common sense is going the way of the dinosaurs, consider sexting. That, if you don't know, is the trend among kids of 13, 14 and 15 to use their cell phones to take photos of themselves naked and send them to members of the opposite but interested sex.
Adults are horrified, of course. "We didn't do that when we were kids!" they cry in righteous outrage. True, but only because they didn't have cell phones that take pictures back then. What they don't say, or perhaps even admit to themselves, is that since the beginning of time kids that age have found other ways to satisfy the everlasting yearning to know.
A shocking example of sexting occurred recently in Greensburg, PA. A trio of girls of the aforementioned ages amused themselves by snapping cell phone photos of each other in the buff. One girl sent the pictures to three grateful boys. A police captain, shocked beyond words after also viewing the photos, had this to say: "They weren't just breasts. They showed female anatomy!"
Now there's mind-numbing information for you. Photos of nude girls showed female anatomy, if you can believe such a thing.
The real losers in Greensburg are the three boys who at first thought they were winners. They have been charged with possession of pornography. Elsewhere a boy of 13 received a naked photo of herself from a female classmate. The boy was charged with a felony and will have to register as a sex offender for the next ten years. Think about that for a moment or two.
So that's the way it goes in this land of ignorance where common sense once prevailed. Maybe the kids should be lectured on proper behavior and the pitfalls of thinking about such things, for all the good that would do. Charging those who send these in-the-raw pictures as being purveyors and the recipients as possessors is far, far over the top. One way or another, kids in their early teen years are, and always have been, very curious creatures about sex. Being shocked by discovering it is that way is . . . well, there must be a word for it but it just won't come to mind.
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:02 am

Quote :
That, if you don't know, is the trend among kids of 13, 14 and 15 to use their cell phones to take photos of themselves naked and send them to members of the opposite but interested sex.

Shocking.

Is there some site where you go to get in on this?
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A Ahad
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:05 am

Dick Stodghill wrote:
A Stodghill Says So blog:

A police captain, shocked beyond words after also viewing the photos, had this to say: "They weren't just breasts. They showed female anatomy!"


Dick,
That's quite shocking, there seems to be a huge loss of moderation and modesty in such matters in this day and age.

A friend of mine wrote into me the other day, saying he was walking along a beach in Australia when he saw a young woman with THREE breasts. No joke, he said, he sounded serious enough...
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:46 am

Quote :
A police captain, shocked beyond words after also viewing the photos, had this to say: "They weren't just breasts. They showed female anatomy!"

LOL that's hilarious. Cops are another linquistic subcuture that turns into a mindset.
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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 3:05 pm

They sure are. Covering some of their activities and their testimony in court for many years was a real ordeal. I knew some good ones, but the majority were anything but. The latest problem around here is police killing people with Tasers, including one who was in jail. To hear them tell it, a dozen cops couldn't subdue a single man without help. Then there was the detective in Muncie who investigated a burglary at the house next to us without getting out of his car. And the many times I heard a cop say under cross-examination, "Oh, taking finger prints doesn't do any good." It sure does in the minds of jurors.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 3:15 pm

A young man, 18 years of age, meets and falls in love with a girl who is one year his junior. As they have a mutual attraction, one thing leads to another, and they have consensual sex. The girls parents find out and have the young man arrested. While he is awaiting trial the girl turns 18 and the two of them are married. At the trial the young man is found guilty of rape.

He has to register as a sex offender, and as there doesn't seem to be any levels of this crime, he will spend years with that stigma on his name, even though he and his wife are living happily together, with their children, and the young lady never filed any charges at all. Chances are that she will not speak to her parents again, and they will lose all contact not only with their daughter, but with their grandchildren as well. There's no way having the boy arrested for this so called "crime" did any of them any good.

You're right Dick, we've somehow tossed common sense out the window.

My wife and I married when she was 17 and I was 24. Here we are 44 years later, 4 children, 7 gkids and 2 ggkids later, still happy and in love, and watching as some idiot parents are willing to destroy their children's lives when there is no use in it.

Tis a sign of our ever changing, ever evolving society, and folks, I'm here to tell you that not all changes are for the better.
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 3:21 pm

The whole mania in the US for calling consenual acts "rape" is just nuts.

I've heard of guys being sex criminals for making it with a prostitute who solicited them, a kid at college was charged with rape because a girl got drunk at a party and woke up in his bed and thought she might have had sex but couldn't remember, in Washington state it is illegal to "communicate with a minor", a girl I knew would seduce men then reveal her age to them and shake them down with threa of rape charges. Goes on and on.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 5:22 pm

As a social worker, I was required by law to report any child abuse or statutory rape to the county. The penalties were quite large if we did not do this. I would tell kids that I would keep confidential what they told me unless I was concerned about their safety or they spoke of having been abused. There are some horrible things that happen to kids. Many are unbelievable. The immediate results of reporting were not always good, but the long term results were better. Since kids knew I'd report my concerns for their safety, when they would tell me about abuse they knew what would happen, and I'd tell them that no matter what the results were, they had spoken up and said it was not right, and that was important.

As far as I am concerned, it is important to know the law. There has to be an age, or some man who is 30 could say his 14 year-old step daughter consented. When does adulthood arrive? I have no idea, but I think it is important to protect kids.

Carol
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 5:42 pm

So what you do, you ask the GIRL if she consented.

Nobody ever argues that protecting kids isn't a good idea.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 5:56 pm

It doesn't matter. That is the law in most states, and there is so much that goes into those acts besides the act itself. Some kids are looking for anyone to care about them in some way, and the older person will use those vulnerabilities. There just needs to be an age, but I also feel each case needs to be considered individually with appropriate consequences. Don's example would have been handled differently in different places.

Carol
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:19 pm

Carol, in my example if the parents had charged the man with r a p e then the chances are great that it would have been handled just like I said.

Lin said that nobody will argue against protecting children, and he is 110% correct. However, Carol, you brought up the age of 14, and you know that it was not so long ago in this country that a 14 year old girl could get married. In fact, a good portion of them were married by that age and had already started raising a family. In the time that your historical novel took place, many young people of that age were married.

I also don't know when adulthood arrives, and I don't think it arrives at 14 or 15, but I do know that each year a good many lives are ruined when something happens with a young boy or girl. I honestly believe that there should be some amount of common sense, which is the topic of this thread, put back into our laws.

Nobody believes kids should be abused, but there is a large gray area where abuse is concerned. A paddling is not abuse, but a few years ago we stopped using the word paddle and begin to use the words "hit" and "beat." We did this for one reason, and one reason only, and that was to make it sound as if every parent that used paddling to correct or to teach a child was abusing that child. It's just not so, and our society is now paying for the lack of discipline with school shootings, kids having no respect for anyone, not even themselves, and kids that have no idea of what the word responsible means. We see 16 and 17 year old kids making home invasions, hurting and even killing eldery people. We see kids making videos of themselves beating other kids and putting in on the internet. We've allowed them to become monsters, and we aren't doing anything about it.

We all know this is true, we see the problem everyday, and yet we still refuse to believe that some things in the old system worked better than the new one does.

There is a big difference between abuse, beating, hurting a child, and using some old fashioned discipline. We have carried it to the extreme, and now we have a society where a child can rule adults with the threat of going to the authorities. We also know that some of the time the child is lying, but once the accusation is made, the adult never loses the stigma.

Common sense! That is exactly what is called for today, and it is exactly what we have tossed out the window.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:34 pm

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:55 pm

Don, you're right. Trying to control every aspect of society doesn't work. Taking discipline away from teachers and even parents has led to no respect for authority in general.
The other aspect referenced concerning sex is a cultural thing related to certain puritan religious beliefs.
To my knowledge, the body parts of the male and the female have not changed since day one. Trying to conceal the identify of these parts creates the curiosity in the young person. Kids that grow up in a society where nudity is not frowned upon don't have those problems. The problem is not with sex but with the society. Prohibition creates the environment to want what is forbidden.
Kids that grew up on a farm didn't have those problems. They learned about sex from watching farm animals. They knew what the body parts of the opposite sex looked like from bathing together as kids or even the occasional romp around the house nude. Parents knew at what age that should stop. Neighbors didn't call the police to report a kid running around without his clothes on. We have caused our own problems and need to look within to solve them.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 12:12 am

Paddling is not abuse. If people are knowledgeable and those in charge are properly trained, there is a distinction. I never turned in anyone who didn't deserve to be turned in, although we were required to report even suspected abuse. The difference between a romp in the house nude, or being curious, or any of the above is when trust is broken, when an adult that is supposed to be a caretaker of a child in some way breaks that trust. If I laid awake at night, I knew I had to make that phone call in the morning.

I do not believe things have changed. I believe abuse has been there throughout the centuries. Now it is just spoken of, now there are resources and options available as well as books and information online. You have no idea the devastation abuse causes, for years and years. I wish I could give examples but I cannot. There is horror unimaginable out there, and not just for girls. I have known whole families of abused girls and boys.

But this thread was about common sense, and I do not believe the girls mentioned in the beginning used common sense. My family was very modest, girls I knew were modest. We would not have dressed as girls dress today. We wouldn't have taken pictures of each other in the nude and put them on cell phones or the internet. At the same time it isn't fair to put all young girls together in one stereotype. There are a good many kids out there with common sense and wisdom I never had.

Carol
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 5:13 am

Paddling is not abuse. Toddlers are generally still wearing diapers, which provide a thick padding so that they don't feel physical pain so much as mental. I had a friend who kept two lightweight wooden rulers in her closet: one white and one red. There was no other difference, but her children would do just about anything to keep from being paddled with the red stick, which was reserved for very bad deeds.

I personally used discipline, but stopped paddling early on, because I felt it did not teach the lesson I wanted to teach. David, for one responded far better to a simple confrontation and firm words, and when that didn't work, unplugging the Pong game for an hour or so did the trick.

Shoving your 14-year-old daughter against the wall and repeatedly slapping her face and shoulders is abuse. So is telling her over and over again that she is stupid and lazy and will never amount to anything.

There is no firm line between the two. It would be so much easier if there were. In the meantime, teachers, like social workers, are legally obligated to report anything they hear students say that has to do with being abused.

We didn't have cell phones when I was a teenager, but if we did, I doubt that I or any of my friends would have used them to take and send nude pictures of ourselves. And most of the young girls I tutor, even those who have to be reminded to turn their phones off at the table, would have more sense than to do so, and the incident Dick reported is still "shocking" to most people.

We were not altogether sensible teens when I was one. I've mentioned elsewhere that we would drive "across the river" into Louisiana - a five minute trip - because the drinking age was younger there. Even after we were told that if we did so at 17, our 18-year-old dates were committing statutory ra pe, we still went. Teenagers often do things they shouldn't, and sometimes the worst thing that could happen does happen.

Ann
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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 6:13 am

It seems to be forgotten that a large number of 17-year-olds took part in the invasion of Iwo Jima. It seems to be forgotten that today 17-year-olds are being sent to Iraq and Afghanistan.
My 4th Infantry Division just returned from its third tour to Iraq. When it left in December 2007, they allowed a 17-year-old soldier the honor of casing the colors.
The idea that someone aged 17 is a child is ridiculous.
No one condons child abuse, but in recent years this country has gone way too far in defining abuse. The fact that a kid says he was abused does not make it true. There seems to be no standard of proof required today. Many kids know this is true and take full advantage of it. When genuine abuse is proved, that's the time to do something about it.
As for those kids sending and receiving nude photos, charging them with a crime is ridiculous overreacting.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 6:24 am

I had one son with what some call a "T" personality, a person who needs to be hanging off the side of a cliff just to get his/her heart pumping. He had similar friends. One of their mothers said, "If they survive to be twenty-five they'll be fine." She was right. In fact, the strange thing is almost every one of them has gone into their father's profession.

I agree Dick, but again if professionals are properly trained, they'll be able to sort out the truth and fiction. Many kids won't tell at all because they know that often in disclosure "all hell" breaks loose and they believe they could be in great danger. And sometimes the consequences just doesn't fit the crime.

Carol
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 7:02 am

I've often wondered how it is that we can consider young people adults when it comes to fighting wars, but children when it comes to driving, buying an alcoholic drink, or making decisions about sexual behavior and/or marriage.

Ann
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 7:38 am

I'd say 17 is definately beyond childhood and we shouldn't be putting 14 and 15 year olds in the same catagory as 3 year olds! I think if a kid can't reason like an adult by the time they're 14 or 15, something is wrong. We should not expect 14, 15, 16, 17 year olds to behave like children.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 8:00 am

Kids need discipline. Kids who went into the armed forces learned what discipline was all about. Kids grow up when they learn that they must take responsibility for their actions. Age doesn't determine manhood. Some so-called kids became men at 17 while others at 30 are still kids. It was a sad day when they did away with the draft. No, I'm not an advocate of war but I do advocate being prepared. Serving two years in the service of one's country didn't hurt anyone and the benefits were enormous. But that's now history.
So who is responsible for teaching kids responsibility and providing discipline? Teachers? Parents? With their hands tied behind their backs?
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 9:01 am

The pendulem swings and it is too bad it can't stop and stay in the middle of the road.

Parents are afraid of their kids now. Used to be kids were afraid of their parents.

Neither should fear the other--just respect each other.

I was never afraid for my life with my folks--just feared for my comfort.
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 9:03 am

Yeah, Dick. I was always amazed by the idea that a guy could be drafted to go kill and die, but wasn't allowed to vote or drink.

One main trouble with the "rape of a child" thing being extended to girls past puberty is that it demonifies. "Child molesters are monsters", doing this un=natural thing.

Meanwhile in most of the world, and for most of human history, females in their mid or early teens have been having families.
It's hard for me to see how it's "unnatural" for girls to have sex at a time when they are menstruating and are highly sexually attractive. It's like saying "God's a pervert", but we'll fix that with laws."

There are always problems when you draw legal lins of course, but the idea that somebody is a criminal and monster for responding to sexual solicitation is just wrong.

Of course, the teenaged moms I mention at other times and places generally had or have teenaged husbands working to support families. One factor in our civilization is that it extends adolescence. The time between reaching physical maturity and being able to funcion as a societal adult gets down out for an excrutiatinly long time. A doctor or lawyer don't get to actually make a living in their profession until they are past their mid-twenties, for instance.

And at the same time they're saying teenaged girls are illegal for sex, it's being pounded into their eyes and ears everywhere they look. A high school girl I know calls MTV "The Moaning Negresses In Underwear Channel". Any given rap video is a booty call. They're having sex pushed down their throats then told they're off limits.

It's damned weird.

I'm not sure what common sense would consist of in the current teen-aged milieu.
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 9:17 am

The Complete Loss of Common Sense 892798 (Sorry)

Alice, did you pick your strawberries at Betty's farm?

Ann
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 9:51 am

They are mushrooms--wish they were Betty's stawberries.
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Dick Stodghill
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PostSubject: Re: The Complete Loss of Common Sense   The Complete Loss of Common Sense EmptyWed Mar 04, 2009 11:01 am

As Lin points out, the movies TV, the online sites all are sexually oriented. The kids can look, but not partake of the offerings. They will, however.
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