Help with a sentence, Please.

If a person is talking to themselves in their heads (thinking) or just talking out loud to no one in particular, do you put quotes around it?

Example:
Sarah frowned. Sure I'll ask John, and he will tell me to mind my own business.

Would you put quotes around it like the following?

Sarah frowned. "Sure I'll ask John, and he will tell me to mind my own business."

This sentence is the last one in the chapter. The sentence prior is spoken by someone else. The character, in the above example, is not speaking directly to the other person. Either talking out loud to self or thinking it.

Can you help me?

I found that answer in my studies... wish I could remember where... but
you use italics with no quote marks when a person is thinking the words.

Sarah frowned. Sure I'll ask John, and he will tell me to mind my own business.

But if she was alone, and spoke aloud, use quotes as in regular dialogue.

Sarah frowned. "Sure I'll ask John, and he will tell me to mind my own business."

That may confuse the reader though and make them wonder who she is talking to.

Unless...

Sarah frowned and said to the empty room, "Sure I'll ask John, and he will tell me to mind my own business."

Tell you the truth, I often do this along the lines of:

Sarah frowned, Sure I'll ask John.

Editors and style books tend to make people beleive there is one way to handle any situation, but actually in fiction you have a lot of leeway.

A great example is "Paradise Falls" by Don Robertson, a great, sprawling book that is as good a candidate as any for the Great American Novel.

He doesn't use ANY quotation marks at all. And guess what, it's no problem whatsoever to read it.

Are you saying, then, that it is at the discretion of the editor?

There are a couple of dreams that are being explained as they are happening. I have them indented and in italics. Don't know if that is right either. *sigh*

So then I got to wondering if I have that much in italics would I put her thoughts in italics as in Brew's example?

Would it be easier just to post the chapter and get help that way?

Thank you to both of you for the input. Something else I have to make note on. (I know ends in a preposition. *sigh*)

Sue, you might put it in the 'work in progress section'. That keeps it private, and you could put the question into better context. You may get a variety of ideas on how to handle it, but it would give you options with which to work.

Sue, if you were reading the first sentence in your original post, would you have any doubts as to who was doing the thinking? Neither would a reader. That's all that matters, making everything understandable to the reader. If you put her thoughts in quotes, all you'll do is confuse the reader just as Brew pointed out. Use italics sparingly. Enough of them will pop up anyway in such things as the Chicago Sun-Times.

I'm saying it's at the discretion of the writer.

Saying the editor is in charge of your work is like saying burglars are in charge of your net worth.

Thank you, Zada, Dick, and Lin. I learned something today.

There is just sooooo much italics in the book as it is and I don't want to overrun the manuscript with them. That would really confuse the reader. However, when I read it Without the quotes or someway to tell that the character is thinking or speaking, I am losing the gist of it.

I will put something in the WIP forum here. Thanks, Zada, for that suggestion.

Dick, most of what is written is similar to the sentence I posted here. So then I wouldn't need quote marks or italics either?

Good answer, Lin. Helps me get a better perspective on the work.

Less is more.

If you take advice from many different sources, you could end up taking all the wrong advice and none of the right advice. If you don't know who is right and who is wrong, the probablity is that fifty percent of your edits will be wrong.

Quote :

But according to that book, thoughts inside the head are just written out. No quotation marks. No italics.

I really like the italics for thoughts. When I am reading and get to an
italicized part, it stands out and has a "feeling" to it. Kinda like a
stage whisper.

I write science fiction and fantasy, mostly. The novels tend to be action-adventure types, within that genre. When I record a character's thoughts, I put them in italics, and no publisher has ever complained or commented. The copyeditors haven't changed it, either.

I believe this usage is pretty generally accepted for genre fiction. Literary fiction often has different, and quite individualistic, conventions, because literary authors have more varied styles.

The publishers that accepted the convention of putting a character's thoughts in italics were: Simon and Schuster, Warner, Ace (Penguin Putnam) HarperCollins, Tor, and Bantam. Also the original Pinnacle, the one that went out of business in 1985.

The main thing the editors want is for the style to be clear and flowing, so it doesn't bring the reader to a grinding halt as they try to figure out what's being said (or thought) and who said (or thought) it.

-Ann C. Crispin

I believe the thing with internal thoughts and punctuation ... is that it has changed and is changing still.


It is pretty much agreed that you do not use quotation marks. These are only used for dialogue spoken aloud.

Others say you may use italics. I get the sense that it means you may, but don't have to.

Quite a few sources, including my book back home and a former writing instructor of mine, say do not use either

And I know I have read novels that did not use either.

You rarely see thoughts expressed in italics in mysteries. If something is well written there is no question who is doing the thinking or that it is a thought being expressed. An exception would be a long thought, a page or more, coming from a psychopath. Stanley Ellin and a few others used that technique.

Dick, that made me think of something - didn't you say once that mysteries are frequently written in first person POV?

Maybe that gets involved in the thought-italic question. Got to think about that one a while.

So it depends on the tense or the first/third person of the manuscript how you use the italics?

I thought most mysteries were past tense.

Shoot, now I am confusing tense with person. *sigh*

Don't let my wandering confuse you, Sue. I just thought that maybe
first person versus third person could make a difference in
whetner to italicize thoughts or not. The more I think about it, the
more it seems unlikely.

Dick said:

Quote :

Sue, if you were reading the first sentence in your original post, would you have any doubts as to who was doing the thinking?

I know it is her but am not sure if she is thinking or talking to someone. Only because of the previous sentence do I know that she is either thinking it or mumbling it under her breath. So I guess that goes along with what was said in another thread about writing so the reader doesn't have to guess.

So the consensus is: In a mystery, no quote marks for thinking or dream sequences. Italics if you want to set the thinking apart but not necessary. Dream sequence can be italicized but not necessary, however, should be set apart like in an indentation.

Do I have that right, as a general consensus?

Also, I thought that most mysteries were written third person? So educate me 'again' on first person/third person. I keep reading and reading my books and nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, is sinking in! *sigh* Only when it is explained to me. Is that an aging thing?

I would say that first person is REALLY unlikely to need italics. There isn't much doubt who is "saying" something if it's not in quotes.

I noticed, Lin, you didn't touch 'the aging thing'. *grin*

I'm not going to touch that line, either.

Brew, a great many mysteries are written first person. The great majority of private eye stories are that way. First person allows for more wisecracks and smart-alecky thoughts and remarks by the narrator. It also in most cases gives the narrator immunity from guilt so that makes it a poor choice for straight mysteries. Agatha Christie and a few other fooled everyone in making the narrator the guilty party, but it has been done and shouldn't be again. That's not true where right from the beginning it is obvious that the narrator is a psycho.
I checked and four of the last mystery short stories I have sold have been first person, four have been third person.