Is "boys will be boys" an OK concept??

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The Problem with 'Boys Will Be Boys'Originally published inRole/Reboot.
For months, every morning when my daughter was in preschool, I watched her construct an elaborate castle out of blocks, colorful plastic discs, bits of rope, ribbons and feathers, only to have the same little boy gleefully destroy it within seconds of its completion.
It was obvious that this little guy got massive joy out of doing this. The first time, my daughter just stared in amazement and I tried to help her rebuild. Second time: sadness. Third time: The Injustice! "Why did he do that again?" Fourth time: Royally Pissed Girl wanted to know why his parent didn't stop him. And what about me? Fifth time: She was ready with some ideas about stopping him.
During the course of this socialization exercise, we tried several strategies and his parents engaged in conversation with us, but mostly me. One or the other of them would occasionally, always after the fact, smile and apologize as they whisked him away. Figuring out what they would say next became a fun game:
"You know! Boys will be boys!" 
"He's just going through a phase!"
"He's such a boy! He LOVES destroying things!"
"Oh my god! Girls and boys are SO different!"
"He. Just. Can't. Help himself!"
No matter how many times he did it, they never swooped in BEFORE the morning's live 3-D reenactment of "Invasion of AstroMonster."
I tried to teach my daughter how to stop this from happening. She asked him politely not to do it. We talked about some things she might do. She moved where she built. She stood in his way. She built a stronger foundation to the castle, so that, if he did get to it, she wouldn't have to rebuild the whole thing. In the meantime, I imagine his parents thinking, "What red-blooded boy wouldn't knock it down?"
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I know it's a lurid metaphor, but I taught my daughter the preschool block precursor of don't "get raped" and this child, Boy #1, did not learn the preschool equivalent of "don't rape."
Not once did his parents talk to him about invading another person's space and claiming for his own purposes something that was not his to claim. Respect for my daughter and her work and words was not something he was learning. It was, to them, some kind of XY entitlement. How much of the boy's behavior in coming years would be excused in these ways, be calibrated to meet these expectations and enforce the "rules" his parents kept repeating?
There was another boy who, similarly, decided to knock down her castle one day. When he did it his mother took him in hand, explained to him that it was not his to destroy, asked him how he thought my daughter felt after working so hard on her building and walked over with him so he could apologize. That probably wasn't much fun for him, but he did not do it again.
There was a third child. He was really smart. He asked if he could knock her building down. She, beneficent ruler of all pre-circle-time castle construction, said yes... but only after she was done building it and said it was OK. They worked out a plan together and eventually he started building things with her and they would both knock the thing down with unadulterated joy. You can't make this stuff up.
Take each of these three boys and consider what he might do when he's older, say, at college, drunk at a party, mad at an ex-girlfriend who rebuffs him and uses words that she expects will be meaningful and respecte, "No, I don't want to. Stop. Leave."
Based on Boy #1's parents blanket gender essentialisms and explanations, my daughter and the kids around her could easily have come to the conclusion that all boys went through this phase, are so different from girls, cannot control themselves, and love destroying things. But, that's not the case. Some do. Some don't. There are also lots of girls who are very interested in ripping things apart systematically.
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But that boy -- and many others like him -- never got the benefit of the doubt. This behavior gets rewarded or not, amplified or not, sanctioned tacitly or not. Both on individual and cultural levels. To be clear: I'm not saying that there is causality between knocking down blocks in preschool and assaulting people later. I am not saying that all boys with bad manners, poor impulse control, ADHD or other behavioral issues will be rapists or abuse spouses. I'm saying the world would be a different kind of place if children were taught to respect other children's rights from the start. Rights to be, to do, to look certain ways and not others. And that teaching children these things has profound implications for society. Anyone who has studied or worked in the field of domestic violence can tell you that the "overarching attitudinal characteristic" of abusive men is entitlement and the belief that they have rights without responsibility to or respect for others. Similar attitudes feed our steady stream of sexual assault and rape.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/the-problem-with-boys-will-be-boys_b_3186555.html

Does the term, "boys will be boys" include pro-football stars like Ray Rice, who abuse their wives?

What are your thoughts?

There was an excellent article on Yahoo sports by a sports writer with the first name Eric.... He was quite clear that enough is enough.  It's pure and simple assault and deserves arrest and judgment in the court system and zero tolerance by the sports industry.  Period.  Little boys know what the big boys are getting away with and it becomes part of their psyche just as little girls know big paychecks come from sports heroes.  If they speak up about abuse, that big paycheck goes away.  Does anyone wonder why Janay accepted blame?  Now, where is her income (since she married the guy) going to come from?  Women accept abuse when they believe they 1) deserve it 2) have no recourse to escape, financially or emotionally.

Abuse is like a boiled frog - from a cold pan, a live frog will stay in the water until cooked.  No woman jumps into abuse - it sneaks up on her like a frog and then she either gets out before boiled or dies.

There comes a time when talking doesn't work that more drastic measures are required. Although I expect disagreement, the woodshed method of correction changed attitudes and behavior. “A thing of the Past” is usually downplayed as wrong or archaic. The objective is to STOP the unwanted behavior and unless it is stopped, it will not only continue, but increase in intensity and spread. Parents must have control of their children. It is their responsibility. I’m reminded of the “old” cliché, “Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child”. When I was a child, I didn’t think it was the right thing especially when it was applied. There were rules. To disobey one could expect the consequences. It was an effective method of control. A Warning was not idle chatter.
"Boys will be boys" is a parental cop out.

Well, we can certainly agree on the parental responsibility part, Abe.  And that includes establishing and enforcing  rules and limits.

I don't know if you checked the link and read the entire article - it was quite long, so I did a lot of editing.  Here is a bit more:

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There was another boy who, similarly, decided to knock down her castle one day. When he did it his mother took him in hand, explained to him that it was not his to destroy, asked him how he thought my daughter felt after working so hard on her building and walked over with him so he could apologize. That probably wasn't much fun for him, but he did not do it again.

There was a third child. He was really smart. He asked if he could knock her building down. She, beneficent ruler of all pre-circle-time castle construction, said yes... but only after she was done building it and said it was OK. They worked out a plan together and eventually he started building things with her and they would both knock the thing down with unadulterated joy. You can't make this stuff up.

And there was another bit about the author's other daughter, who had to be taught that such behavior was inappropriate:

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... eventually she understood that, even if she wanted to and it was fun, she couldn't continue to violate her sisters' rights as citizens of our household.

The main point of the article had to do, not only with parental, but societal attitudes that allowed both boys and men to think that it was only natural for them to be more aggressive than girls and women, and that such attitudes often lead to men committing violence against women, which also allowed for men, like Ray Rice, who were abusive to women to get off lightly:

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Anyone who has studied or worked in the field of domestic violence can tell you that the "overarching attitudinal characteristic" of abusive men is entitlement and the belief that they have rights without responsibility to or respect for others. Similar attitudes feed our steady stream of sexual assault and rape.

I have also read more than a few studies indicating that indicate a connection between corporal punishment in childhood and violent, abusive behavior in some adults.  That isn't to say that all children who are "spanked" grow up to be abusers.  Clearly many, even most, do not.  

I do think that there has been a long time societal attitude of "boys/men will be boys/men" that has fed a sense of entitlement and rights in men that often allows them to get away with aggressive behavior towards women.  It is also my opinion, as a parent, that "violence begets violence," and that spanking can lead to an increase in violent behavior in some adults, but that's just me, and was not a consideration in my OP.

There are more women than men in the world. Women out vote men. Our laws are made by women. As parents, we no longer say how we can raise a child...it is the law that says what we can do, and can't do. Well, we now have what we have.  Every country that has given the women the vote, has lost its goodness. Most men will not stand up to women for fear of the law women control. Women have voted God out of everything...because under Gods laws, women have no control. There are still some of us who stand by Gods laws. We treat women like Jesus treats us. Women are building a world that is falling in on itself. This women power thing is against God...you can't have it both ways. Women either are for Gods laws, or they are against God. Those who are against God, he will deal with. You have made it what it is.
Here is America, you spank a child, and you go to jail...kids know this...that is why they are lawless. You have made it so, so live with it. Girls will be girls now won't they?

Good points, Ann.  I think much has to do with the environment where one grows up.  Permissiveness was not an element in my youth.  As an adult, I look back and think it was too strict, but then when I see how kids turned out, perhaps it wasn't all that bad.  We were taught respect for our elders, and that included out parents.  We had respect for the police, our teachers and those in authority.  Religion played a large role - too big of a role in my opinion, where fear was used for control.
Men and women are different.  Just today I received the monthly magazine published by my Health Insurance provider.  They showed pictures of men and women with the organs and muscular structures.  They have made many studies and the results are interesting, i.e., the dose of Prescription Drugs cannot be the same for men and women.  Side effects are also different.  Aging is another factor that varies between the sexes.  In Germany, the biggest killer of women has been breast cancer.  For men it is heart attacks.  Much effort has gone into preventive measures as well as how treatment is given.  Early detection is a biggie and therefore one is encouraged to visit the doctor and have an annual physical.  It was at such a physical that my doctor sent me to a heart specialist and that saved my life.  A spot was detected when my wife had her mammogram and they took a biopsy that showed malignancy.  They were successful in removing the cancer without removal of the breast.  That was followed with radiation treatment.  It was NOT Chemo Therapy.  They pin-pointed the affected areas and then zapped the affected cells.  With Chemo, good cells are destroyed along with side effects.  The advances in medicine are great and it is hoped that preventive medicine will help reduce disease. 
I mention this because they also talked about the psychological differences.  Men are less likely to complain about pain and when they do, it is not as big a deal as with women.  Women tend to talk more about their pains and may even exaggerate the severity.  Recovery also varies between the sexes.  Specialists are now trained to deal with those differences and treatment is adjusted accordingly.
I believe that boys and girls are different mentally and physically.  Teaching them respect begins in the home.  Often kids will emulate the relationship of their parents.  If that is abusive, they will be prone to do the same.  In a situation like this, they cannot be expected to learn proper behavior in the home and therefore the school becomes the place for learning.

You posted at the same time as I did, Domenic.

Abe F. March wrote:

You posted at the same time as I did, Domenic.

Since you are younger, I let you be first...lol.

Younger?  I wish.

Quote :

Men are less likely to complain about pain and when they do, it is not as big a deal as with women.  Women tend to talk more about their pains and may even exaggerate the severity.  Recovery also varies between the sexes.  Specialists are now trained to deal with those differences and treatment is adjusted accordingly.

 Sorry, Abe. but this bit has me thinking the article was written by a man - that part of it anyway.

The opposite is true.  Women have babies.  We know a lot more about pain than men do, and can handle much more than men.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but that is another one of those male myths, in the same vein as the boys will be boys attitude.

Not just me this time.  You will raise the ire of many women if you repeat that one too often.  Just sayin'

Generally, it is true that the physiologies are different (a good thing!) and dosages, etc. need to be different.

The statistics are changing re cancer and heart conditions, though.  Those mammograms are part of the reason.

It is interesting, too, I think, that heart attack symptoms are different for men and women.  Women have fewer chest pains and more overall symptoms of malaise.

There are 23 women in the U.S. Congress, hardly a majority of the law-makers.  I believe there are two women on the Supreme Court.

Many nations still govern by religious laws which condone the abuse of women.  This country separated governing from religion (though the Republicans have been trying to merge the two with some success).

When I worked in the aircraft industry as an attractive young woman, the harassment on the job was blatant and frightening.  There was a culture of acceptance.  One day I could take it no longer and quit (those days there was no other recourse and I was making better wages than anywhere else would pay me but had one too many approaches).

I accepted a job at Turco Purex.  The atmosphere was entirely different.  Business was the priority and fraternizing was discouraged and Personnel noted any evidence in the workplace and brought it to the attention of the parties.  I was chastised for riding a bike to work in shorts and halter top (I changed into work clothes in the ladies lounge) so I changed my riding attire. 

The interesting thing today is that was a company built on sales and sales people who seemed to have more leeway than other professions to flirt as part of their sales persona.  Respect for a business like environment that included respect for women and their worth was part of the culture created by the founders of the company.  I often wondered if that respect grew from the fact they produced cleaning products - primarily used by women.  The aircraft industry was testosterone stuff - zoom zoom into the wild blue yonder.

As long as harassment and abuse are tolerated, it sets the example for the worst in the abuser to take advantage of the situation.  When zero tolerance exists, it stops.

Differences in feminine and masculine traits that do not form the basis for abuse provide for strength in the resources of both.

The simple respect stated across most religious beliefs, treat others as you wish to be treated, takes care of most situations.  Respect.  Simple respect is all that's required.  It doesn't take a religious movement or even laws.  It takes each home, school and work environment setting the example through management that respect is required with zero tolerance for harassment and abuse.  Period.

Yess!!

Abe F. March wrote:

Younger?  I wish.

 Abe, you are 75. I am 78.
When I was three, I was 100% older than you. When I was 6, only 50% older than you. Is it now down to 1.4%? Soon you will pass me by, and you will be older.

Dom, I thought your Icon showed 71.  Glad to know there is someone on this forum older than me. 

Ann, I didn't write the article.  It was written by Medical Researchers.  If Medical Research doesn't please, that's too bad.  There was much more to the article about differences.  I chose to relate what I found interesting.  Just as some men want to be seen or appear macho, it seems that some women want to be seen in a similar vein.  If having babies is the guide for pain, men simply can't relate. On the other hand, women can't relate to the pain of getting kicked in the balls.
Just Sayin...

Fortunately, I've yet to witness a man in such straits, but I would guess we are talking minutes?  Childbirth is a bit more prolonged.  Were you with Gisela when your children were born?  If so, it was rare for your generation of fathers.  Men who are actually there, from what I've seen, generally have a more sympathetic perspective, and are very different fathers than those who sat it out in the waiting room.

Ann, who experiences the most pain isn't a contest.  The point was in how one deals or relates the pain.  BTW.  I saw my youngest child being born.  That event is recorded in my book.

Good for you.  And I agree that it isn't a contest, but I still question the comparison, and insist that women deal with pain better than men, who still seem to excuse their behavior on the basis of being men.

It's interesting, the difference between responses of men and women to the basic point made in the OP. Old boys clubs lend themselves to unholy alliances and the avoidance of getting into a discussion of the basic question about the minimal initial response to the obvious brutality and spousal abuse of Ray Rice.

If you think childbirth is pain, you should feel the pain a women give a man in the back of the neck. Knowing the scriptures very well, It is easy to prove even God don't want women around...there are no women in heaven...here is the proof:



Revelation 8:1, “When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven...lol.

Ann,


The Artikle in the TKK (Teckniker Krankenkasse) magazine was written by a woman.
Professorin Dr. Vera Regitz-Zagrosek, Director of the Institute for Men/Women Research.  The title:  “Frauen sind keine Männer” (Women are not men).

I agree with the title. Perhaps Germany still fosters a bit if I old paradigm thinking. Maybe a Fox News version of a medical report. Even here the medical outlook tends to ignore newer perspectives. My new PC holds such views and she is a woman. Fortunately my rheumatologist is more enlightened and he is definitely male. Just shows that patriarchal thinking isn't always about men and women .

Janay Rice insists that her husband did not abuse her. The video evidence proves that he was. I still wonder why the men posting here have ignored that question in the OP.

Ann, from posts you have made over a period of time, you tend to put men down.  Is this some quest you have?   Is it caused by some men in high-heeled boots wearing broad-rimmed hats?  Concerning the article I quoted, you said that it was most likely written by a man.  Now you’re trying to justify your remarks by turning it into a culture thing.  
BTW,  there are intelligent men in this world and many of them love and respect women, however if women were to be as prejudiced about men as you seem to be, the attitude of love and respect would most likely change.

So you are going to continue avoiding the main question by making it about me -  by shifting from discussing an uncomfortable issue to making it another personal attack. 

Talk about a cop-out. 
You are too funny.