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 US Ground Troops in Iraq

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 12:59 am

I saw a video on FB of an American officer or sergeant, (couldn’t identify which) giving a talk to Iraqi officers and troops.  He pulled an American basic training tactic telling them that they weren’t worth shit and degraded the mother’s who bore them.  I didn’t like this crap during my basic training and don’t like it today.  Dealing with young recruits is not the same as dealing with older men and in some cases, seasoned soldiers.  Failing to understanding the mentality of the people is an ongoing mistake with our involvement in foreign countries.  This American soldier better watch his back or he may return to the US in a body bag.  Gaining respect with older people is not accomplished by bashing them.  Insulting them is one thing, insulting their mother is stupid.  We can’t expect people in another country to react to the same tactics used on our own people, especially given the age factor.  If he expects the Iraqi men to follow him, or take his advice, he may have blown his only chance.  First impressions are lasting and the first impression of a man whose vocabulary is limited to four letter words is not a positive thing.  Although their English may not be great, they do take the time to understand the meaning of words.  What we may use as slang, they may take more seriously.   I was insulted and disgusted just listening to this jerk.  Comments by some on FB approved of his tactics and a few said, “That’s telling them.  Give them hell, etc.”  I may be too far out of the loop to understand how this training method of using “advisory” troops can work.  Talking to the soldiers in a derogatory manner may work if it was done by Iraqi officers in charge of the men.  In my view, this American was not functioning in an advisory capacity, but rather as an integral part of the Iraqi troops.  If you see the video, be advised that it contains gutter language.
 
IMV, an advisor provides input for a desired result – a positive result.  If that result is to give the Iraqi soldier more backbone or strengthen their will to fight for their country, the tactic should be to build them up, not tear them down.  It is not advisable to give such a talk to the officers in front of the men they are to lead.   If anything, the talk may have united the troops against the American with collective resistance to his advice.  Pride in one’s country begins with pride in oneself.  Is the fight worth dying for?  Military tactics on how to kill must be combined with the reason for the killing.  Unless the objective leads to peace, then killing becomes the objective in a struggle for power.   I hope I am wrong.  I don’t want to see more US troops along with equipment wasted for no just cause.  Yes, we are largely responsible for the problems in Iraq and are working to undo the damage we caused.  How we tackle that is the issue expressed here.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 6:11 am

I concur. I worked for the military for five years.  Boot camp has always been a sort of "hazing" - an admittance to the misery loves company league.  It reflects the paternal beat 'em with a strap attitude to make men of 'em.

Today's military requires intelligence at all levels.  It includes men and women.  I believe people fight for a purpose.  Use purpose to inspire.  However, I also believe to create a killer mentality (that's what war is - killing), the training needs to overcome the training not to kill, the training to cooperate and compromise. Therein lies the difficulty that contributes to PTSD, etc.

We must end war, period.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 6:47 am

The purpose of the hazing, I think, has always been to reduce the inductees ability to think for him/herself. The idea being that grunts need to follow orders blindly, as soon as they are given. Fewer officers come from promotion through the ranks, and more from special programs. As DK said, this leads today to greater problems down the line with reactions and conditions like PTSD.

Just my perspective - old soldiers will likely have another.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 7:18 am

The Military philosophy in every Army is and always has been.  “You have to break them down before you can build them up.”  Ann, you’re close—In the military you NEED unquestioned authority and discipline or you have lost before the fight begins.

Next time we need our country protected maybe we should send a bunch of hippies!
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 7:45 am

7/1/2014

                   I'm against any troops in Iraqi , we are fools to get into this, it's a
                   dangerous religious war and if our dear President doesn't see this
                   then I think he's a bigger fool than I thought....

                                               Cheers....Joe... Very Happy
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 8:32 am

I don't think we have evolved enough as a species to dismantle our military. We still need that "Big Stick," to hold up as a possibility to those bullies who would be tyrants.

I personally think that our president and our sectetary of state are doing a great job of walking a line that serves as a strong enough warning to have an effect.

Of course war is not the answer, but defense may be necessary if the militant forces continue. Unless they believe that the US and Europe will defend themselves, what will stop them?

In the meantime, we need to also believe that diplomacy can succeed and focus our thoughts and intentions on those solutions.

Still just me.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 9:52 am

I think we need to have a healthy fear of people who hate us, have amassed great wealth to support their cause and have membership across the globe.  It's not that we can do anything personally except try to put people in governance who are there for other reasons besides becoming re-elected.

My mother is addicted to Bachelorette and Bachelor.  I watched it last night and found a parallel.  Several men were discussion a fellow who was not present but was on a date with the bachelorette.
The crux of it was:  they accused the absent fellow of playing by his own rules for the purpose of staying in the game - not because he had any interest in the woman.

That seems to be our Congress.  They are in the game for their own benefit entirely, not for the interests of the nation in a global world.  It is pitiful and shameful of us to let that happen.  A lot of it comes from tying the Republican Party and religion together which violates the very principles the Republican party originally stood for - the intentions of the founding fathers.  Tying the party to religion was the opposite of their intentions.  Yet, the Republican party claims patriotism and family values as their domain. 

On the Democratic side, poor propaganda and keeping old wood in office has been detrimental to their ability to operate.  They are also caught in saving their jobs instead of performing to the needs of the nation.

So you take these two broken parties and there is no government.  I still think they ought to all go home and let the bureaucrats continue running the country - they are the only ones doing it now.

Our Congress and their advisers need to be brilliant people with solutions to problems, not the same old watered down lobbyist concoctions that are produced today. 

While I am a supporter of President Obama, I am disappointed that he was not a miracle worker who inspired people the way I was inspired by John F. Kennedy (regardless of Kennedy's personal life).  Sometimes inspiration in a leader is more important than what they try to accomplish. 

An inspirational leader is a catalyst to other inspired individuals that may very well outshine in their performance of duties.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 10:03 am

It's that old "collective unconscious" with its archetypes and archetypal stories and heroes.

The land that was once fertile had become a wasteland because the ogre-tyrant had gained control. It is up to the young warrior-hero to depose the tyrant are restore fertility to the land so that it becomes green and growing again.

We got caught up in the archetype and expected Obama to produce the green land from the wasteland immediately. The reality has been that the "old tyrant-king" is not going out easily. Our president is doing a good job. He just hasn't met our "magical" hopes. The archetypes are ideals, not real.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 10:06 am

7/1/2014

                       Sorry to say my prediction is we will be sending in more troops,
                       thousands and I'm sorry to say we will loose more American lives,
                       and this will sadden me, the politicians don't give a dam what the
                       American Public thinks or say they have their own agenda 
                       including the President....

                                                   Cheers..............Joe... US Ground Troops in Iraq 925501
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 10:41 am

I am against war.  However, I fear to let this movement continue to grow may, in fact, accomplish what Bush lied about as an excuse to go to Iraq and stir up the hornets nest in the first place - better to end it there than here.  At the time Bush and his cronies lied and took us into Iraq, that was the war cry - better there than here.  However, it wasn't even Iraqi's that were involved in the 911 horror.

We seem to swallow lies so well.  Now, the movement of hate has rekindled throughout the world of young men without jobs and with leaders to provide the fanatical religion they need.  This is scarey stuff.  They have nothing to lose.  They have a cause.  We have everything to lose and a splintered country of self-interests and profiteers. 

I am sure the profiteers are meeting in secret to protect their interests.  Who is protecting ours?
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 10:45 am

Just as the religious right in this country is set on taking rights away from women and sending us back to pregnant and barefoot, fanatical religions in the Middle East and surroundings are set on making sure women stay subjugated and that the religious law is the only law - and that all other people are not worthy of living.

Women in this country who value our freedoms to exist better take a look at the causes they are supporting to their own detriment and start a campaign of unification instead of damning religious division.

I made a comment on Facebook and was immediately damned (I could get pregnant, etc. etc. and whore around etc. etc. at the government expense if I want to.....) by a woman because she was responsible for herself.  Right.  And she had the funds to be responsible.  She was in a position that no one would take her rights away.

But the lowliest among us are trapped by lack of government assistance, young single parents, disabled, elderly, mentally off people, working poor - the list goes on and on.  Who will fight for them? 

Women at least need to support each other.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 11:37 am

7/1/2014

                    I'm afraid no one will defend anyone in this country. As for the Middle
                    East Fiasco, I don't want to see it turn into a major war and As of
                    yesterday I read ISIS is now on the border of Lebanon, that would be
                    horrible if they took this over, the Saudi's on the other hand I'm sure
                    are peeing in their pants, they know their hated by these groups. It's
                    our own fault for getting involved in these wars, yes I agree we had 
                    no business going into Iraq nor Afghanistan and now we're paying the
                    price...These countries have to fight their own wars.....God Bless Our
                    Soldiers.....

                                                      Cheers....Joe... US Ground Troops in Iraq 925501
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 12:08 pm

DK, if your reference is to my friend, Kathy, I don't think she meant i personally. I was surprised that she commented. I've known her for a long time, and she has never done so before. She obviously has very strong feelings, but I didn't see anything that indicated she was referencing any individuals, except perhaps me, at one point. She's just high-strung.

We have strong feelings about it as well, but are no more entitled to our opinions than she is to hers.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 1:03 pm

DK, I think you have a good handle on the situation as a whole.
Don, I agree with you and understand the reason behind the "tearing down to build up" method.  It works in a controlled situation.  When dealing with another mentality, it can backfire as I think in this case it will. 
Tha American soldier (recruit) is motivated largely by patrotism.  What is the motivation for the Iraqi?  That was my point.  One must ascertain the motivation and the cause before deciding on the course to make it happen.  What is their reason to fight?  To kill for the sake of killing is nuts and very wrong. 
The Iraqis must be made to feel proud of their country and want to defend it. There may be other reasons that can motivate them and finding out what that is can make the difference between success and failure.  That is the crux of the situation, IMV.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 3:32 pm

Isn't it a crying shame that religious fanaticism is the root of murder?  Killing women and children.  Destroying artifacts and cities.  All in the name of their Creator?  Nothing I have read in any religious text prefers murder to living an honorable life. Of course, religion is full of hypocrisy and male domination

Religious fanaticism in this country is likewise full of hypocrisy but at a more modern level.  Kill the doctors who perform abortions to preserve the lives of the unborn?  endangering the lives of the mothers by not providing appropriate care for their needs?  Remove affordable contraception from employer plans so child-bearing age women may wear a scarlet letter as they seek their own?

Promoting guns as a "right" as children are slaughtered in our inner cities and those with mental issues find access to use weapons to destroy more innocents?

Favoring capital punishment and strict incarceration for crimes so that families of incarcerated may starve for lack of income and caring, children put in foster homes.  Thus the prison industry flourishes while the inappropriate distribution of justice destroys many of our youth.

Fighting to take hard won rights by our mothers and grandmothers away from today's generation of young women who have their own intelligence to make decisions about their own life and health choices.

And irony of ironies, wanting to destroy universal health care for the less able in this country - totally self-serving for political power.

Reducing funding resources that provide for healthy diets that lead to intellectual capacity for our growing youth.  Where is the love they neighbor in that?

In fact, I see little "love thy neighbor" left in the Republican platform.  It's all benefits for the wealthiest in the country, subsidies for corporate greed, and zero activity to add jobs to the economy.

Now, I don't see the democrats doing a lot with jobs either though they had legislation that couldn't get to first base due to obstructionist policies by the Tea Party radicals.

At least the Democrats feed the poor who are always among us and, yes, my responsibility so long as I have food, clothing, shelter and an income.  Yes, compared to my meager income, I pay a huge tax bill.  I resent that I pay disproportionately a lot compared to the wealthiest with lawyers, accountants and hiding places.  I do not resent paying taxes to aid my fellow travelers on this life's journey. 

We come into this life naked and go out the same way.  It's how we share our riches in the meantime that really matters, whether those riches are of spirit, character or finance.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 3:44 pm

dkchristi wrote:
Isn't it a crying shame that religious fanaticism is the root of murder?  Killing women and children.  Destroying artifacts and cities.  All in the name of their Creator?  Nothing I have read in any religious text prefers murder to living an honorable life. Of course, religion is full of hypocrisy and male domination

Religious fanaticism in this country is likewise full of hypocrisy but at a more modern level.  Kill the doctors who perform abortions to preserve the lives of the unborn?  endangering the lives of the mothers by not providing appropriate care for their needs?  Remove affordable contraception from employer plans so child-bearing age women may wear a scarlet letter as they seek their own?

Promoting guns as a "right" as children are slaughtered in our inner cities and those with mental issues find access to use weapons to destroy more innocents?

Favoring capital punishment and strict incarceration for crimes so that families of incarcerated may starve for lack of income and caring, children put in foster homes.  Thus the prison industry flourishes while the inappropriate distribution of justice destroys many of our youth.

Fighting to take hard won rights by our mothers and grandmothers away from today's generation of young women who have their own intelligence to make decisions about their own life and health choices.

And irony of ironies, wanting to destroy universal health care for the less able in this country - totally self-serving for political power.

Reducing funding resources that provide for healthy diets that lead to intellectual capacity for our growing youth.  Where is the love they neighbor in that?

In fact, I see little "love thy neighbor" left in the Republican platform.  It's all benefits for the wealthiest in the country, subsidies for corporate greed, and zero activity to add jobs to the economy.

Now, I don't see the democrats doing a lot with jobs either though they had legislation that couldn't get to first base due to obstructionist policies by the Tea Party radicals.

At least the Democrats feed the poor who are always among us and, yes, my responsibility so long as I have food, clothing, shelter and an income.  Yes, compared to my meager income, I pay a huge tax bill.  I resent that I pay disproportionately a lot compared to the wealthiest with lawyers, accountants and hiding places.  I do not resent paying taxes to aid my fellow travelers on this life's journey. 

We come into this life naked and go out the same way.  It's how we share our riches in the meantime that really matters, whether those riches are of spirit, character or finance.


This is all well and good, but what in the heck does it have to do with sending more of our young people to die on foriegn soil in a war we can't win?????  Or are you just saying that all of the world's problems are caused by the U.S. Republicans?
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 4:05 pm

7/1/2014

                    Don..

                             ............ US Ground Troops in Iraq 973110 

                                                  Cheers...........Joe.. US Ground Troops in Iraq 925501
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyTue Jul 01, 2014 5:49 pm

7/1/2014

                     The Constitution and Impeachment, read on..

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/impeach/constitution.html

                                           Cheers..Joe.... US Ground Troops in Iraq 925501
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyWed Jul 02, 2014 7:28 am

Don, I re-read DK's post based on your comment about it being political.  I tried to see it as a non-political issue, but came up short.  Considering our current state of affairs:
Our war debt can be placed at the feet of the Republicans.  Then one must consider the unemployment.  Much of this can be attributed to work sent overseas.  Who was it that gave tax breaks to the rich?  How many of the rich have their money in offshore accounts?  Which party has opposed benefits to the poor and the elderly as well as Veterans?  I think there is a track record that clearly points in one direction.
As for sending our troops to die on foreign soil in a war we can’t win I believe that scenario is opposed by many.   The only situation that would change my view is for humanitarian purposes.  Saving lives is not the same as taking them.  I realize that is more complicated than it sounds, i.e., what to do about Syria? 
It is clear that we initiated an unprovoked war in Iraq killing hundreds of thousands and that includes our own soldiers. Now that we messed up a country, I think we owe the Iraqi people some help.  Sending more troops for the purpose of killing is not the answer.  Many are upset about ISIS and that includes me.  The hawks think that a simple solution is to wipe them off the map.  Cite an example in history where such an act succeeded?  There is no wiping of anyone off the map.  We may destroy property and take lives, but there is always someone remaining who will make it a lifetime pursuit to take revenge.  
I wish there was an easy answer and solution for the problems in Iraq and what to do about ISIS.  I do think that diplomacy should be given a chance to work.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyWed Jul 02, 2014 8:07 am

I personally see war as what it is - murder - taking the life of another human being with family and loved ones and friends and a soul.

While that is what I believe, it does not mean I would not defend my life or that of those I love.  Those who favor war extend that defense to encompass a rationale for war.

Revenge is never the answer.  There is always someone to carry on the revenge.

Yes, I did make a political statement.  I can't help it that Republicans have pulled in the religious right to get voters who are easily emotionalized because of their strong religious convictions and in so doing, have a religious platform that is antithetical to the very Founding Fathers they quote.

Abe summarized well the roll Republicans have played in this current international mess.  I believe it is a time of international crisis and the people of the United States need to be encouraged to stand together instead of divided and stop hating their President for the world to see.  The right wing media ought to stop encouraging that hate.  It is not patriotic in the least.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyWed Jul 02, 2014 8:12 am

I do fear ISIS as I fear radicalism in our own country.  We enjoy immense freedoms here, women in particular (though they are in jeopardy).  The fanaticism of the middle east spreading puts large portions of the world in a closed dark age without potential for change.  Their possession of WMD's could be the real threat that was lied about as an excuse to go into Iraq the first time.

It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy. We went to war in Iraq with a lie.  Now, the lie could potentially become a reality.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyWed Jul 02, 2014 9:29 pm

US Ground Troops in Iraq 950944
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: US Ground Troops in Iraq   US Ground Troops in Iraq EmptyWed Jul 02, 2014 9:34 pm

Beating on a dead horse won't make it run.
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