Here in the Real World

dkchristi wrote:

I'm not part of this discussion, but the god of love in the new testament would not cause plagues any more than we cut off body parts for thievery or stone for adultery.   Anyway, addition to what things?  Addition of words?  Addition of things?  More pages?  A new interpretation?

Read Revelation 22: 18-20
It say if anybody takes away, or adds to these scrolls...All the scriptures were written on scrolls at the time...now that it is in book form it means the same thing.
Do you think God would not keep his word on what he says?

I think that the scrolls are replaced - and if "adding" is worthy of plagues then all those Bibles with annotations and explanations represent additions.  It just goes to show how interpretations vary. Also, there are additional texts that were found later.

Does it mean takes away a scroll or adds a scroll or takes away what is written on a scroll or add to what is written?

I think I would disregard the fear of plagues relative to that statement that lends itself to multiple interpretations. If it is like the rest of the Bible, it is more likely a dramatic way of stating the importance of the text, not a threat of a real plague.

As Ann would say, just me.

dkchristi wrote:

I think that the scrolls are replaced - and if "adding" is worthy of plagues then all those Bibles with annotations and explanations represent additions.  It just goes to show how interpretations vary. Also, there are additional texts that were found later.

Does it mean takes away a scroll or adds a scroll or takes away what is written on a scroll or add to what is written?

I think I would disregard the fear of plagues relative to that statement that lends itself to multiple interpretations. If it is like the rest of the Bible, it is more likely a dramatic way of stating the importance of the text, not a threat of a real plague.

As Ann would say, just me.

What does it matter to you anyway? You don't believe in the Bible. Your comments always tend to discredit the Bible. You sound just like all the other people how don't believe in the Bible, and always have to talk against it for some reason? If people don't believe it, why do they even talk about it. I don't like baseball, but I don't tell people who do what a stupid game it is.

It matters to me because so many people govern their lives by the Bible.  I appreciate it; I just don't see it as literally applicable to today beyond its philosophical and historical meaning.  I certainly "believe" in the spiritual content and the admonitions to love as taught by Christ.  So, I don't think accusing me of not believing in the Bible to discount my opinion is appropriate anymore than I discount your for stating you believe it literally as you interpret your literal translation. 

I just think there are many interpretations and likely it was intended to be so.  There are also differences between the old and new testaments and their applicability to today's world. 

Many scholars find different interpretations, especially those that go back to the original writings before translations.  Therefore, I am suspect of damning anyone for their interpretation and I am also suspect of accepting one idea above others. 

I do respect your scholarship on the subject and that's why I bother to read your posts and occasionally respond.  I have an appreciation for scholarly endeavors and learn quite a bit from the exchange in this post.

Before I post some verses I'll say this. Wanting proof of things spiritual (of God) is a common tendency of the natural man. The Lord is concerned that we have faith in Him. Now you accept the Bible because of fulfilled prophesy. It is wonderful you accept the Bible.

Here are a couple verses from the Book of Mormon -

1 Nephi 10:3-4

That after they should be destroyed, even that great city Jerusalem, and many be carried away captive into Babylon, according to the own due time of the Lord, they should return again, yea, even be brought back out of captivity; and after they should be brought back out of captivity they should possess again the land of their inheritance.

Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews - even a Messiah, or , in other words, a Savior of the world.

There you go. A fulfilled prophesy from the Book of Mormon. Yet, each person decides what they will believe.

Charlie Moore wrote:

Before I post some verses I'll say this. Wanting proof of things spiritual (of God) is a common tendency of the natural man. The Lord is concerned that we have faith in Him. Now you accept the Bible because of fulfilled prophesy. It is wonderful you accept the Bible.

Here are a couple verses from the Book of Mormon -

1 Nephi 10:3-4

That after they should be destroyed, even that great city Jerusalem, and many be carried away captive into Babylon, according to the own due time of the Lord, they should return again, yea, even be brought back out of captivity; and after they should be brought back out of captivity they should possess again the land of their inheritance.

Yea, even six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews - even a Messiah, or , in other words, a Savior of the world.

There you go. A fulfilled prophesy from the Book of Mormon. Yet, each person decides what they will believe.

That's good Charlie. When was the book of Mormon written? The event was recorded hundreds of years before the Book of Mormon was written...It's not a prophesy.
A prophesy is something said before the thing happens, not after.
There are no prophesies in the Book of Mormon. There is nothing to prove the Book of Mormon is from God...nothing. There is no proof Joseph Smith Got Golden Scrolls, and then they were taken back to Heaven. The Book of Moron is a book with no proof.

What you mean to say is it hasn't (maybe can't) be proven to you. That is your choice to believe as you will. I believe it contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Millions (and more everyday) also believe as I do. Other millions do not believe. We shall see.

Charlie Moore wrote:

What you mean to say is it hasn't (maybe can't) be proven to you. That is your choice to believe as you will. I believe it contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Millions (and more everyday) also believe as I do. Other millions do not believe. We shall see.

That's no reply Charlie,
The biggest religion in the world is Catholics...they are wrong...so you can't go by numbers.
I asked if you believe in the Bible, or the book of Mormon...you can't believe in both, they don't match. It sounds like you believe the book of Mormon over the Bible? is that so?

Respectfully, I will say you don't have the right to tell me what I can or can't believe. You're commenting, in my opinion, based upon your own beliefs, which many people do. I can and do believe in both the Bible (which I am currently rereading) and the Book of Mormon (which I've read multiple times). They do tell the same story in my belief. You can choose to challenge my belief and even tell me I'm wrong if you want, but I don't challenge what you choose to believe or not believe. Perhaps you should consider extending the same courtesy.

Let's continue this as a discussion. If you're going to tell me I'm wrong about my faith or religion that is your prerogative, but it isn't a discussion.

Oh poo! I feel a ban coming on. I hope you guys have your funny bones exposed. No offense meant, each to their own etc. (An atheist always says that before offending everyone   )

vmaxnick wrote:

Oh poo! I feel a ban coming on. I hope you guys have your funny bones exposed. No offense meant, each to their own etc. (An atheist always says that before offending everyone   )

Charlie, and me were having a good discussion...why is it when two people who believe in God, always have to have a smart ass atheist jump in, and say something stupid?

That’s the nature of a forum post Domenic, its open for all to read and to comment. If you wish to have a private discussion, you can use the PM facility. Now I was just wishing to inject a little humour into the debate but I realise that few theologians have a sense of humour when they feel they are being attacked. Considering that only Atheism is based on science and not belief and faith, I take the ‘stupid’ comment on the chin as, after all it was I that butted in on your ‘private’ thread.
If I were to post up that we were created by a race of teapot people who reside on a planet just over on the dark side of the moon, you would rightly denounce me as a ‘nutjob’.
If I were to post that the teapot people are my belief and my faith, you would still consider me a ‘nutjob’ but you would respect my beliefs and my right to have an opinion which differed from yours. Case in point: scientology.

I can assure you both, I meant no malice, I just have a very juvenile sense of humour and sometimes forget that it isn’t always appreciated. Still, best I be thankful that it wasn’t a picture of Mohammed posted in a discussion about Islam; otherwise they would be picking bits of me out of the furniture.   

Anyway, sincere apologies for interrupting your private debate and likewise if I have caused offence.

I've seen the Southpark skit before. It's funny. Doesn't detract from what I believe nor was I upset by it. Nothing wrong with being Atheist. My brother kind of leans that way, although he has never said straight out what his beliefs are. All of us are individuals and we think like individuals. Just happens that some agree with others and some disagree.

Here is a truth we can all take from the Bible Charlie...


Who will be in the resurrection. It looks like the Ransom applies to ALL no matter what their religion is. Even those who don't believe. I do know there is a bad seed, and those of that seed I believe will taste the second death.



Acts 24:15-16 – “there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” NKJV
John 5:28-29 – “the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will … come forth” NKJV
Rom 5:18 “through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life” 1 Cor 15:22 – “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” NKJV
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Luke 2:10 – “the angel said…I bring you good tidings of great joy… to ALL people.” NKJV
Heb 2:9 – “But we see Jesus … that He … might taste death for EVERYONE.” NKJV
John 12:32 – “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself.” NKJV
John 1:29 – “John …said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! NKJV
John 6:51 – “the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” NKJV

I concur and believe you're correct about the resurrection. All will be raised from the grave. But, not all will live and be in the presence of God in the eternities. When Jesus judges us according to our faith and our works here on Earth, He will then determine where we will end up. I don't know exactly when this happens.

The reason we will be resurrected is because of the atonement of Christ. This is the single most important event to ever occur and the only thing that makes resurrection possible.