Catholics are Good People

I have never met a bad Catholic. Why are their leaders so off base?
Molesting children and covering up such is deplorable.
I do not understand the loyalty of the members to such an organization.
What have I missed?

Had an interesting talk with a Catholic friend some years ago. She was explaining to a couple of acquaintances who were surprised to learn that she and her family attended the church in a predominately African-American neighborhood, when she lived much closer to the one attended mostly by Caucasians. Her reply was that the priest at the church she attended taught the love of God, while the priest at the other taught the fear of hell.

I've always remembered that phrase, because, to me, it underlines the basic good and bad of the entire Judeo-Christian-Muslim concepts.

Some communities are focused on the first, others on the latter, and it seems that each congregation, as a unit, tends to do the same.

The institutions themselves, in order to continue in existence, cannot afford to actually "heal." In order to keep the members coming back (and making financial contributions) they have to keep them "sick." The best way to do that is to see to it that all people are essentially "sinners" who will not avoid Hell unless they come every week -- and tithe their income.

Papal Authority is the highest single entity in the whole institution. A few popes have focused on God's love, but the majority, it seems to me, have insisted on enforcing the dogma.

The white smoke is visible meaning they elected a new Pope, however no mention yet who he is.

3/13/2013
When I went to religious instrucions Catholic, I used to sit
and listen to Sister Agatha, what was being said I didn't
believe God was like that Hell, Pergotoary, Heaven, I think
they use fear to control, then I thought if sister ever knew what
I was thinking she would hang me outside or nail me to a cross !
Cheers..Joe..

I have had more church experiences than many people I know. I started in Southern Baptist, continued in Methodist, several years in Swedish Lutheran, on to Presbyterian and Church of Christ Reformed, then Buddhist, then Catholic and finally Unity.

In all denominations I found people of great intentions, spiritual awakening and generosity as well as fanatics with cement minds and dogma used to cover flaws.

Religion, to me, is not the mark of the man. Religion is personal. It's how a person lives their life that matters.

So, what are your thoughts?

Interesting symbols - a Jesuit taking the name of Francis of Assisi:
(Lord, make me and instrument of thy peace. Where there is hatred let me sow love, where there is injury pardon [doing this from memory, but I think we all know the rest]

A few simple prayers: our Father and Hail, Mary.

A tone in his voice that is open, simple, and familiar.

This could be a good thing - so far.

He seems to be an improvement. I hope so anyway.

Those who rise to the top of any large organization are often not the best people. Politics in church/synagogue/temple play a role that is not different from secular politics. The best, most humble, most honorable women and men seldom go for the brass ring, and when they do they seldom attain it. the meek may inherit the earth, but they seldom attain positions of power while living in it.

There are exceptions, thankfully. I believe that Pope Francis is such an exception. I said a prayer this morning while waiting for the decision that God guide the Cardinals to choose someone worthy of walking in the shoes of the fisherman. I truly believe that prayer was answered. I hope that those who are always ready to attack the Church--my Church--in the popular media and elsewhere will withhold judgment and get to know this man of God whose whole life up until this point is an exemplary model for any religious leader of any religion anywhere on planet earth. If anyone can repair the damage done by evil and misguided men in my Church, I believe he can. He may prove a disappointment, though I sincerely doubt it from what I know about this humble man of God so far. But I hope that all people of good will regardless of what religion they observe, if any, will withhold casting stones until he gives them cause to do so. That is a lesson we all should have learned from the best of men, Jesus of Nazareth, whether we acknowledge His divinity or think Him to be just a man--not to cast stones unless we are ourselves free of sin.

Catholics are human beings no better or worse than any other. I've met good ones and bad ones, the same as with Christians of various Protestant denominations, Jews, Muslims, and atheists. (I don't know enough Buddhists or members of other religions to form an opinion, but I strongly suspect the same is true of them.) We Catholics more than anyone abhor the inhuman acts of too many priests whose behavior against the most vulnerable among their flock is an abomination, whose sins are unforgivable under the laws of men and, I believe, under the laws of God, and who dishonored themselves, their Church, their vows and the God they so poorly represented on earth. Those in my Church who covered up the crimes of these evil men are equally guilty. But to paint all priests, all Catholics, or to imply that a Pope just elected to whom absolutely nothing but praiseworthy behavior is attributable by the record as we know it as of today may be a pedophile is at best unwarranted. Ancient antipathies that have little to do with the very real and abominable behavior of a relatively small number of evil priests motivates most criticism of my Church, even by people of conscience who would no more paint any other religion with as wide and as defamatory a brush than they would beat a puppy. I do not ask anyone to sugar coat the failings of my Church; I certainly don't do so myself. I ask only that my Church, which represents more than 1.2 billion men and women from all corners of the globe, be treated with the same respect as any other religion. Insinuations that all priests are is pedophiles are as offensive as insinuations that all Muslims are terrorists. Both at their core are motivated by prejudice and are unworthy of people of conscience.

3/13/2013
Victor..
BRAVO........

Cheers..Joe...

Well said, Victor.

I am a sceptic when it comes to religious leaders, not just Catholic, but all the protestant wigwam.

I see many, many people looking for forgiveness for sins they never committed, willing to pay to be pardoned by priest, reverends, preachers, who are more 'sin-full' than the people who are asking forgiveness....

People feel that they need to be forgiven because they are poor, uneducated, indebted. I think that churches, all churches feed on that emotion and are all too happy to take the little money the peoples of the congregations are putting in the pot to buy the gold, the stained glass windows and all the icons that represent the money they have spent. Also to support the really nice house in the gated community that the priest lives in.

I am not sorry for my opinion. I see very little spent back into the community,,,,I am not talking the town, but the immediate community where the churches reside. Maybe a half mile radius. All I see is the preacher, priest, whoever, riding around in the best vehicles, doing nothing much except an occassional talk that is geared to recruiting and asking for more money.

I say, tax all the churches.....Tax all the charitable organizations, (who are worse than the churches). Taxing the Catholics and the Mormons and the Baptist would eradicate the deficit in a month.

Love,

Betty

The church is for sinners. No one is perfect.
Come to think of it, my church members are not perfect, after all, they let me in.

alice wrote:

The church is for sinners. No one is perfect.
Come to think of it, my church members are not perfect, after all, they let me in.

OK. see. kind of, maybe, Alice, that is the problem.

We are all "sinners," because we all have a limited perspective, so we make mistakes sometimes. That's where the fear of hell comes in - and a fear of this place of eternal damnation is what traps us into believing that we need the church to save us from our sin.

The rector who was serving at the little Episcopal church near my house, when I first moved here, was asked a question once, during an adult Sunday School class.We were discussing church doctrine re Judgement, and this lady asked if people who died went to Heaven right away, or if they were just "dead" until the final Judgement Day.

He replied that Quantum physics had taught us that eternity was not about time stretching on forever; it was about the absence of time altogether, so, he told the lady, the question was moot. In eternity there is no time.

The point is, if there is no "time" in Heaven, there is no "time" in Hell, either.

Personally, I believe that the entire concept of Hell is a misinterpretation.

When the grain is separated from the chaff, we are only talking about one being, and that after death, the "chaff" of that stalk is blown away, and what is left of that being is the grain.

Likewise, the fire burns away the part of an individual that is not needed in the afterlife.

Neither metaphor was meant to describe separating "good" people from "bad" people, but merely about the "bad" parts falling away, leaving only the good part - the grain itself, or the kernal.

And remember, these are metaphors, designed to help us see what is beyond our understanding.

I have come to believe that the problem lies in our belief that the opposites are valid: Good/evil; light/dark; love/hate. All of those comparisons carry the weight of an either/or reality. But reality is actually both/and, and it is our perception of evil, and our belief in it as the opposite of good, that is the main weapon the church holds over its members.

You are not a sinner. You are a normal human being, and normal human beings have qualities that we sometimes label as good or bad, but are just different sides of who we are.

I mentioned something here recently about an old Star Trek segment, where Captain Kirk was split into two people - one totally good and the other totally evil. What the captain, Spock, and the crew learned from the experience was that we need our "bad" parts as much as we need our "good" parts. The "good" captain was a weak being with no power to take charge or make decisions.

Understand - I am a Christian. Anglican/Episcopals are not Catholic, but they aren't quite Protestant, either. The traditional church, when first formed, had the same dogma and rituals as the Catholic church. They just didn't recognize the pope as their leader. (Remember? That was about the time that Henry VIII wanted a divorce, and the pope said no. Of course, if there had not been a large number of English people who were already getting disillusioned, forming an independent Church of England would never have worked, but the actual reformation in England came later.)

I also remember a statement by our local bishop: "The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is religious certainty."

It all comes back to what I said earlier - on this thread or another - today (or maybe yesterday), that Christians/Jews/Muslims all have two approaches to their religious practices: act out of a fear of Hell, or act from a love of God.

Anyway, as I said, you are not a sinner. There are no sinners, only normal people who are right some of the time and wrong some of the time, because human beings all have limited perspectives.

It is a good thing for some people to have rituals they regularly practice, and a community of supportive people to practice them with. But when the leadership takes the decisions out of the hands of the people, and sets up an authority, and uses fear to keep them in line, we have a problem.

Just me.

Annie

3/14/2013
Shocking news about the new Pope !
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-one-lung-jorge-mario-bergoglio-francis_n_2870515.html
Joe

Good posts on the subject of religion. I think it is and should be a personal thing. We all seek answers about life and death, i.e., "where did we come from and where will we go after death." Lots of guesswork involved. Belief in a better life after death is a driving force on the positive side. The threat of damnation or burning in hell for eternity is the fear model designed to keep people in line using the negative approach.
There are good and bad people in all religious dogmas. Their actions have nothing to do with our own. Our personal beliefs guide our lives. I believe we are accountable for our actions, not the actions of others.

I am not a sinner. I am a child of God, perfect in every way as God has made me and imperfect in all the ways I have chosen through my own free will. I do not believe in original sin or heaven or hell. I believe in a God that is in and through all things in this world and beyond, providing hope for a universe of harmony.

Because I have a mind that was also created by this power, this God, this force, this energy in the dna, I make choices that might prove unwise in afterthought. I do the best that I can to live a life that honors my Creator though I often fail.

I believe that Jesus was spiritually evolved and understood more than that which is recorded and the records of his life are inconsistent and incomplete. I believe that he was a modest person who never saw the wealth that churches would accumulate in his name while their members were hungry and impoverished across the world.

I am pleased that the new Pope is modest, humble and concerned about the impoverished. I hope he forces the church to turn its wealth into the gold of physical nourishment and economic uplifting for the world's poor.

I agree with Betty. Excluding churches from paying taxes is a mistake. They have turned that exclusion into a method for unearned wealth in many cases, corruption in the worst of cases. I believe nothing should be excluded from taxation. Period. Taxes should be part of any business plan.

Where there is a church swimming in wealth and an impoverished population the spiritual quality of that church suffers.

Ann, the old Star Trek was full of wisdom. I loved it.

Abe F. March wrote:

I believe we are accountable for our actions, not the actions of others.

I believe, My God doesn't hide in a church, I am free to choose, but I am not free from the consequences of my choices.

dkchristi wrote:

Ann, the old Star Trek was full of wisdom. I loved it.

It was an incredibly enlightening series, very mythical, and decades ahead of its time.

I am a sinner, but a saved sinner. Jesus died for me. I don't worry about hell, because I am not going there.

Churches should pay taxes. People should not be able to deduct church
donations.

My feelings are similar to those of Don

Sometimes when we declare our beliefs, it seems we are saying we are correct while someone else is wrong. What I believe is correct for me and what others believe is correct for them. Faith is very personal and experiential and steeped in custom and heritage. What we know and feel is how we will govern ourselves in our behaviors, and what might be right and wrong for one person may differ for another - and likely will differ. The trick is to recognize differences as part of this greatness in the universe that makes so many unique things - like snowflakes and flowers and colors. Differences seem to be the trademark of the universe, differences that work together seeking a harmonious relationship. We can learn from that by listening to other people and their points of view without judgment or condemnation and actually learning something that might enrich our own lives.

I know that the symbolism that I find excessive in Catholic churches can also be a source of comfort. I wore a gold ring for years that gave me comfort that somewhere, the person I loved cared about me still. How can I say anything negative about any one else's choice of symbolism? The same thought process applies to many philosophical and religious differences across the globe. Religions that pray to ancestors are not much different than people who go to graveyards to communicate with those they loved in life. It's all in how we group together our beliefs, label them and then set ourselves up as the owner of the answers.

Even in death I don't think I'll know the answers because the energy that leaves my body will likely comingle in such a way that it'll be like a long sleep with no awakening. Thus, it will be perfect and free from disease or the burdens of life as the spiritual life is described.

The best I can do is breathe the life force of each moment as the treasure it is in this amazing world and try to stay ahead of that dark side of our character that wants to catch us now and then and put our thinking in negative places.

Yep. Funny how we express feelings differently, yet are saying the same thing.

Yes and we should never force our views on others. Religion is a very personal matter.

It's JC's question: What is the new mythology to be, the mythology of this unified earth as of one harmonious being?

It's like there is this gigantic jigsaw puzzle, and each person has a handful of pieces. That person arranges her pieces, the next arranges his. We each have a small picture of the whole. When we bring our pieces together, we can form a bigger picture.

But this is a very large puzzle. I don't think we are meant to see the whole thing - that would take away the mystery of life, and the mystery is a good thing, but we can get a clearer image - enough for us to evolve, so long as we realize we only see a small portion, and accept our neighbor's portion to be as valid as our own.

Ann,
Good viewpoint.