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 Protocol

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A Ahad
Don Stephens
Carol Troestler
Pam
Phil Whitley
Dick Stodghill
zadaconnaway
Brenda Hill
JoElle
Abe F. March
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 7:14 am

Customs are in a constant state of change. They also differ from country
to country.

When I was a kid, we referred to adults as Mr. and Mrs. There was no exception. Aunts and Uncles were addressed as i.e., Aunt Ruth or Uncle Bernard. When did this all change? I believe it was a slow process and the moment too much familiarity came into play, discipline began to decline. The saying that “familiarity breeds contempt” has merit. In the workplace bosses were never called by their first name and they didn’t mingle with those working for them. We had the military draft and every young man who passed the physical had to serve at least two years. He learned discipline and the respect of rank.

Today, the American way is informal at all levels. First names are used and the dress code has become casual. The boss is one of the boys. The boss wants to be liked, and in doing so often loses respect. The American influence of casualness is being felt in other parts of the world. It is still resisted but slowly there is a thawing out. At the same time, discipline is suffering as a result. That is especially true in the schools. Students are no longer required to call their teacher by Mr. or Dr. although many still do. The kids want to appear “cool” and/or “American” in their dress and actions. In business, forgetting the protocol of the country has costs many a salesman loss of business.

Understanding the customs of a country is important if one is to be accepted. To think that everyone must adjust to us is the worst form of arrogance. Respecting one’s culture goes hand-in-hand with respecting one’s religion. The American way does not mean it is the only way or the right way but simply the way America is today.

I happen to like the older ways. It is my choice. Giving respect to people, regardless of culture, is not an offense. Not giving the respect according to protocol, often due to ignorance, can be offensive.

I have found people to be pleased when they are referred to as Sir or Madam, Mr. or Mrs. They may request that you call them by their first name, but the fact that they were given that initial respect, is not forgotten.
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JoElle
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JoElle


Number of posts : 1311
Registration date : 2008-05-09

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 8:21 am

Sometimes change is a very good thing.
Because of change women and minorities in this country (and others) can vote, get equal pay, get an education. Because of change women are now police officers, fire fighters, and truck drivers. Men can be secretaries, salesclerks, models, hairdressers, and nurses and not fear ridicule.

We can choose who we want to marry and not be part of a land bargain.

Children aren't sold to farmers and businesses when orphaned.

But change can also be not such a good thing. I think showing respect and manners are important. However, I think a lot of the informal address encouraged today is an effort of appearing approachable.

Change is going to happen ... good or bad.

Actually, that is life ... moving on ... changing. And change is part of living.
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Brenda Hill
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Brenda Hill


Number of posts : 1297
Registration date : 2008-02-16
Location : Southern CA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 10:50 am

Yes, some change is good, JoElle, but I agree with Abe. I was raised in
the South in a different era and I would never even consider addressing
an adult outside of the family by his/her first name. To this day, I
address my elders as Mr or Mrs.

My thirty-year marriage to an older man taught me many things, and
among them was the importance of respect. While he enjoyed teaching
children some of the skills he'd learned growing up in northern MN, he
demanded respect. He'd bristle if a child addressed him by his first
name. What's worse, some adults would introduce him to their children
and use his first name. He'd always politely correct them, holding out
his hand to the child, saying, "I'm Mr Seaman." While some
people thought he was arrogant, and even I questioned it when we
first married, I came to realize that children need that separation.
They need someone to respect.

I find I still hold the same views. Being approachable does not
necessarily mean lowering standards. Showing respect is still demanded
today, and it's something most of us, as writers, need to remember. I
can't tell you how many times I've heard agents talk about opening a
query and tossing it after an overly-familiar salutation such as, Dear
Jane. They demand a showing of respect. Are we less worthy? I think not.
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JoElle
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JoElle


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Registration date : 2008-05-09

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 11:16 am

I agree that manners are still important.

That's why I said some change is not such a good thing.

Some people have become casual with manners to be approachable. And I agree, a person can be approachable without giving up manners.

Our son was raised with manners. He calls all his aunts and uncles by their title. He even refers to my sister who is only four years older than him as his Aunt Lianne.

My sister in law was very surprised when he went into her kitchen and asked "Aunt Renee, may I have a glass of water?" She told him "Of course Joe! Help yourself. You don't need to ask." My son looked at me in confusion. I told my sister in law "actually he does".

Funny thing, part of the reason I made sure we taught our son manners was because I had not been given proper training as a child. Embarassed
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Brenda Hill
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Brenda Hill


Number of posts : 1297
Registration date : 2008-02-16
Location : Southern CA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 11:20 am

Good for you, JoElle. Your children will be among the few who are welcomed by adults of all ages.

After browsing the forum, I see this conversation is also on Dick's post about annoying agents.
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JoElle
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JoElle


Number of posts : 1311
Registration date : 2008-05-09

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Brenda Hill wrote:
Good for you, JoElle. Your children will be among the few who are welcomed by adults of all ages.

After browsing the forum, I see this conversation is also on Dick's post about annoying agents.

Thanks Brenda!

Actually, my son is 24 now. And I think he's off to a good start with his oldest son. He has a three year old and a four month old.

He's a former wildland firefighter. Now he's a correctional officer and in the military. He just arrived in Afghanistan. I am sure it is the work ethic, sense of honor, duty to others, and good old fashion manners that have made him the fine young man that he is. My husband and I are very proud of our kid.
Protocol JoenJoeyonbluechair
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Brenda Hill
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Brenda Hill


Number of posts : 1297
Registration date : 2008-02-16
Location : Southern CA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 12:10 pm

JoElle, I feel pride for him as well, and I don't even know him. Thank
goodness for the young men and women like him, and for parents who
instill values in their children.

I'll join with others who, I'm sure, pray for his safety.
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zadaconnaway
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zadaconnaway


Number of posts : 4017
Registration date : 2008-01-16
Age : 76
Location : Washington, USA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 12:42 pm

Brenda and JoElle, I could not agree more. And BRAVO! to you and your husband, JoElle, for raising such an upstanding young man. His manners are sure to rub off on his son, and I too hope for his safety.
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Dick Stodghill
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Dick Stodghill


Number of posts : 3795
Registration date : 2008-05-04
Age : 98
Location : Akron, Ohio

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyMon Aug 18, 2008 4:30 pm

Some newspapers, including the NY Times, are again referring to people by title. That's good, unless carried to extreme.
When I worked for the evening paper in Muncie an older man on the morning paper sometimes went a little to0 far. Years after the event I read a story announcing the arrival of the Pittsburgh Pirates in town for spring training. The man wrote that Mr. Frank Frisch and Mr. William Elliott were the first to carry their suitcases from the depot to the hotel. Every baseball fan in the country knew Bill Elliott and even most of those who were not fans were aware of Frankie Frisch, the Fordham Flash. Rather than enhancing their images, his style did the opposite.
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Phil Whitley
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Phil Whitley


Number of posts : 907
Registration date : 2008-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Riverdale, GA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyThu Aug 28, 2008 2:27 pm

I agree about using proper etiquette and all that, but...

One of pettest peeves is when I meet a new person, offer them my hand,
and say, "Hello. I'm Phil," to which they offer me a limp hand and
reply, "I'm MISTER Smith."

See the implication there? I gave them my first name, to which he
raised his status above mine. Hell, I don't even like to be called
Mister Whitley. That was my dad!
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Pam
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Pam


Number of posts : 1790
Registration date : 2008-02-01
Age : 58
Location : Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyThu Aug 28, 2008 5:41 pm

LOL Phil - that's a good point that you've raised, and hopefully something that we would only come across rarely. Smile
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Phil Whitley
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Phil Whitley


Number of posts : 907
Registration date : 2008-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Riverdale, GA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyThu Aug 28, 2008 6:27 pm

It happens to me quite frequently, Pam. Maybe I just look like someone who needs an authority figure. geek

If they introduce themselves first, using the Mr./Mrs. title, I still reply by saying, "I'm Phil. Nice to meet you, Mister Smith," with a little cynicism on the mister part.

And a limp, dishrag handshake? I like to give it a little extra squeeze - just enough to make their knees buckle.
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Carol Troestler
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Carol Troestler


Number of posts : 3827
Registration date : 2008-06-07
Age : 86
Location : Wisconsin

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 5:32 am

My father was a very distinguished, respectful man, but shy and not too outgoing early in life. Later in life he became much more casual, outgoing, and seemed much happier and enjoying life.

My family is a very respectful family, probably a result of family tradition from many generations ago.

One thing I never liked was when I was addressed as Mrs. Thomas Troestler. My name is Carol, not Thomas.

When I owned a business and was the boss, although I was friendly, the employees still treated me apart from them. (not exactly on a pedestal.) But we had a director who kept the business details together, and she and I worked together well, as equals. I still tell people she worked with me, not for me.

My grandchildren do come and make themselves at home. I did give them permission to do so, however. Most are in high school and are absolutely delightful people.

Carol
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Don Stephens
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Don Stephens


Number of posts : 1355
Registration date : 2008-01-25
Age : 85
Location : Wherever my hat's hanging today!

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 7:18 am

I have to believe that part of the decline in showing respect began when teachers began the “casual movement”. I went through 16 years of school and I don’t think I could tell you the first name of any teacher I had. It was always Mister , Misses or Miss XXXX. Then when my kids went to school a lot of the male teachers stopped wearing ties and wore sport or tee shirts and told the kids to call them by their first names. Many of the female teachers appeared to be trying to see who could out dress who. The most informal teacher I had was my high school football coach, Mister Timmerman. He told us when we were on the field we could call him Coach or Mister T, and practice was the only time I ever saw him without a tie.

I have a terrific young couple (mid forties) for neighbors. They both address me as Mister Stephens. I only tried once to tell them, “call me Don”. Then I accepted the fact they were showing respect and accepted it proudly.

I guess I’m showing my age, but I would never think of addressing a new business associate by their first name without their suggesting it and most of the time I’m much older than they are.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 7:20 am

I agree with Phil about a limp (weak) handshake. You immediately want to wash your hands after touching them.
The next worst thing is someone shaking your hand without looking at you. That pisses me off the most. If someone shakes my hand I expect to be acknowledged as the person whose hand is being held.
That is quite different from using the proper "protocol" as mentioned in starting this thread. Giving people respect as dictated by their culture is good business and good manners. Usually when you give respect, you get it in return. You don't give it, you don't get it.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 7:23 am

Don,
you posted at the same time as I did and I missed your comments. Having read them, I'm in complete agreement. I guess we old folks just think differently.
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A Ahad
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Number of posts : 1102
Registration date : 2008-03-25
Age : 55

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 9:06 am

They abolished the cane in UK high schools shortly after I left, back in 1985. I think that has had a big part to play in the rise in juvenile delinquency and disrespectfulness ever since. I did misbehave in school... once...during a rugby match out in the snow, when I refused to get involved. My PE teacher made me do a cross country run across the field and then afterwards reported me to the Head of Year. I got caned and had swollen palms for a week after that...

Parents are not allowed to smack their children anymore. Full stop. I don't agree with that philosophy. A child is only going to misbehave even more and more, but a couple of slaps given at the right time will make him/her think twice about further disobedience...and instill good manners that flourish into adult hood.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


Number of posts : 12662
Registration date : 2008-01-11
Location : UK

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 9:47 am

I don't have a problem with the occasional slap and I accept that children prefer a quick punishment rather than a protracted one that curtails their freedom. That said, I don't believe in hitting children because there are too many cases of abused children in the UK. Allowing parents to slap their children means that some children suffer terrible beatings. I also accept that child abusers are in the minority so why should the majority suffer? Well, if you could save a single child's life no matter how much it inconvenienced you, you would do, wouldn't you?


Last edited by Shelagh on Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Carol Troestler
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Carol Troestler


Number of posts : 3827
Registration date : 2008-06-07
Age : 86
Location : Wisconsin

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 10:00 am

My husband and his grade school friends have shared horror stories of the treatment of children by the nuns at their Catholic school: slaps with rulers and the worst was when a nun tied a girl's braids together and hung her by her braids from coat hooks.

The students in my grade school were not hit, but it was a very orderly and respectful school. I don't believe my children were ever hit in school, but I know one spent a great deal of time in detention and the office, with many visits to school by his parents, especially in the beginning of the school year. He is a very successful adult, but I understand from the band teacher his son has some similar character traits to his father.

I taught in a school where the children were beaten with a belt. The office was near my classroom and we could hear the punishment when it was carried out. My room would get very quiet during those times. I think my students knew I'd probably never send a student to the office, but hearing the punishment was enough to keep them in line.

Carol
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Dick Stodghill
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Dick Stodghill


Number of posts : 3795
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Age : 98
Location : Akron, Ohio

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 11:26 am

I am in total agreement with Don.
Akron, which has a dress code for kids in many of its schools, has instituted a dress code for teachers this year. No T-shirts, no jeans. Many teachers are crying the blues. No wonder things are such a mess today.

Did I tell the story of Mr. Loucks, our high school football coach and my algebra teacher? He was a genuinely tough character from the hardscrabble Ohio Valley steel towns. He went to tiny Washington & Jefferson College and was a starter on the W&J team that went to the Rose Bowl, an unheard of happening.
One day a boy mouthed off in class. Mr. Loucks opened the classroom door, came back and stood in front of the boy's row of seats, lowered his head, bellowed like a bull and charged. Holding the boy - a big kid - by the front of his shirt, Mr. Loucks hurled him out the door. We could hear the crash as he hit the metal lockers on the opposite wall, then crash after crash all the way to the principal's office.
Mr. Loucks came back, stood in front of the class rubbing his hands together and said, "Anyone else got something to say?"
It was a wonderful lesson for all. The boy, who had been a troublemaker from his first day in school, was a model student in every class from that day forward.
Mr. Loucks was a hard but fair man. One day he told me to remain after class. He said, "You don't know a thing about algebra, do you?"
I admitted he was right.
"You're going to fail, but if you come in half an hour early every day and work problems on the blackboard, you'll get a passing grade."
I did so, and passed. A knee injury had already knocked me off the freshman football team so he wasn't favoring one of his potential star players.
Throughout life I have carried the lesson taught by Mr. Loucks with me and I have often wished I could have thanked him for it. Kids not only need discipline, they crave it. They need to know where the line is drawn. They need to learn and show respect.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 11:36 am

Wow.
I didn't think my discussion on protocol would turn into child abuse.
Having said that, let me just say that if I were to compare the physical punishments inflicted on me with today's standards, my parents would be behind bars. It is difficult for today's generation to understand the standards of my generation.
On the lighter side, that would include our taste in music.Protocol 607436
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Dick Stodghill
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Dick Stodghill


Number of posts : 3795
Registration date : 2008-05-04
Age : 98
Location : Akron, Ohio

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 11:40 am

One more thought. On my second or third day in the Army in 1943 we were gathered together in an auditorium. A steely-eyed office came out on the stage and looked us over row by row until he had met every man's eyes. Then he said:
"The first thing you need to know about the Army is we can't make you do a thing."
This was shocking news so a chorus of whispers were exchanged. When things quieted down, the officer again met everyone's eyes before saying:
"That's right. We can't make you do a thing, but we sure as hell can make you wish you had."
Another great lesson in life.
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Carol Troestler
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Carol Troestler


Number of posts : 3827
Registration date : 2008-06-07
Age : 86
Location : Wisconsin

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 12:44 pm

Hmmm. . . Am I to imply there were/are different standards and strategies for disciplining females than males/females?

Carol
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Phil Whitley
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Phil Whitley


Number of posts : 907
Registration date : 2008-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Riverdale, GA

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 1:07 pm

In the public schools of the 1950's south, I don't remember a single
girl being paddled or having any form of corporal punishment. But the
boys were a different story...
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Jim Woods
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Jim Woods


Number of posts : 171
Registration date : 2008-06-07

Protocol Empty
PostSubject: Re: Protocol   Protocol EmptyFri Aug 29, 2008 1:29 pm

In the later 1940s, when I was in junior high, the principal, Mister Walter C. Jetton--whom we called "pussyfoot" because he could sneak up on you so quietly--used his very thin leather belt for "spankings." The other administer of corporal punishment was math-science teacher/coach Mr. Howard Moss who had a wooden paddle, and infractions, as he judged them, required a determined number of "cuts" with the board. But such punishment was dealt only to boys because girls, and females in general, were not "equal" at the time.

Jim Woods
www.ultrasw.com.jwoods
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