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 A modest proposal for a new century . . .

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dkchristi
joefrank
Abe F. March
alj
Victor D. Lopez
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E. Don Harpe
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E. Don Harpe


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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyMon Sep 24, 2012 12:57 pm

Doesn't matter what they're used for Victor, if they take money from me and give it to someone else, it's redistribution.

Too many people see the current talk about redistributing the wealth as taking something from the wealthy and giving it to the less fortunate. That is the definitive explanation of redistribution as the right wing sees it.

Over the past 25/30 years there has been a tremendous redistribution of wealth, but it's been going from the bottom to the top. Even though all of the facts are easy to find, you just can't get the right wing to admit it's the same thing.

All one has to do is compare three things. One: The fact that the wealthy have been getting much wealthier in this time frame. More millionaires and billionaires have been created than ever before in history. Two: Even though more and more workers have been laid off, productivity has gone up by leaps and bounds. This of course means more profit for corporations, who, after all, are in business to make money. And Three: Workers wages have remained almost flat during this time frame. Which means that money has been systematically taken from them (via lay offs and few raises) profits have increased tremendously, and those profits have gone into the creation of millionaires and billionaires.

That is redistribution of wealth, any way you look at it, and it's that inequality that many of us see the need to correct. If taking it from the wealthy and giving it to the not so wealthy is the only way to do that, then so be. After all, it's just putting the shoe on the other foot.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyMon Sep 24, 2012 4:54 pm

E.Don,

A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 950944
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyMon Sep 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Agreed Don. Things are out of balance and there is a reason for that. When the elite realize that they are "killing the goose that layed the golden egg" perhaps they may change their thinking.
Corporations produce products and traditionally made profits with sales. Traditionally, consumers bought their products when they they were employed and had money to spend. The Elite had to find another way to make their profits when people stopped buying and some turned to trading worthless paper. Now that that has been exposed, perhaps they may feel the need to earn their profits in an honest manner. They will change only when they feel a need to change. Stop supporting corrupt corporations. We don't have to worry about wealth distribution when Tax is fairly administered. Giving the wealthy a tax break is Nuts - Stupid. It places the country in a self-destruct mode.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 6:26 am

Corporations are global. They see new markets opening throughout the world. They are positioning themselves for those markets, not ours. Take a look at China! I believe much of foreign policy is the result of global corporate power attempting to manipulate their profits.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 7:44 am

Romney's newest plan is to give everyone a 20% tax break. Unfair again and it will balloon the deficit.

Can you imagine? Someone who pays $100.00 will then 'pay $80.00 saving them $20.00. Someone who pays $5000.00 will pay $4000.00 saving them $1000.00.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 12:30 pm

E. Don,

I don't agree. If the government takes money from you to pay for police, fire fighters and garbage collectors, it is not redistributing wealth but rather exacting a fee for services rendered. That is a far cry from taking money from you to expressly for the purpose of giving it to someone who is needier than you. I support both forms of taxation within reason, but the latter is wealth redistribution while the former is not. I support taxation that funds basic, essential services (including social services) but not generally taxation for the primary purpose of social engineering.

I also disagree with your assertion that the elites are redistributing wealth from the bottom up. The bottom has no wealth to redistribute; it consumes wealth. The middle class does not exist in any country following any model but capitalism at its core--including modern day China. Wealth is created by private individuals who are willing to put capital at risk. It is not created by governments or unemployed people who need assistance to survive. Corporations demonized by the left are the engines that produce wealth, as are people who place their personal capital at risk so that new enterprises may be born, grow and flourish. Capitalism begets wealth, promotes social mobility and establishes a healthy middle class while its antithesis begets squalor, the rule of elites propped up by guns and endless human suffering.

Those calling for greater income redistribution and a "soak the rich" strategy either don't understand or don't care about the fact that taxing the income of the wealthy even at 100% would not pay off the national debt or fund the government at current levels. That is an inconvenient truth swept under the rug by every elitist demagogue using the tired, old (but still effective) weapon of class warfare to lull the uninformed into believing that the wealthy "elites" are responsible for all of our ills as a society and that all will be well when the "right thinking" elites chanting "yes we can" or some other equally meaningless mantra take over and make the world right.

We depend on the economic engine to create wealth. Of course, taxing the wealthy at 100% would kill off the goose that lays the golden eggs and sink us into third world status even faster than the current efforts of politicians to get us there like medieval "doctors" applying leeches and judiciously bleeding their patients to death equally sure of the efficacy of their treatment.

I do believe in income redistribution of income of the rational kind from the wealthy to the less fortunate members of society. I do believe that the wealthy should pay more than they do now. But I distrust those who advocate taxing us out of the hole we've dug for ourselves through generations of mismanagement by BOTH left-wing and right-wing administrations and who point at corporations as the root of all evil as much as I distrust those who advocate throwing away all government regulation of business and who see lowering taxes as the only way to get us out of the gutter in which irresponsible policies have placed us. Both are wrong, myopic and dangerous.

I know that most of my colleagues in this forum will disagree. C'est la vie. Let us be grateful that we can emphatically express our opinions in a civil manner free from the fear that the thought police will knock on our door and drag any of us off for re-education, or torture us in some dank dungeon or police station for the names of other misguided souls with equally dangerous ideas. (as was done to my grandparents for supporting the leftist Republic and opposing fascism in Spain)
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 1:18 pm

I believe that anytime we apply extremes, we are dancing in dangerous territory. The United States is unique in the world. In spite of our disaster under the Bush Administration, we are still one of the strongest economies and the rest of the developed countries believe we are healthier than our doomsday sayers indicate.

In no way do I advocate a soak the rich policy. However, I do advocate a policy where civil society has already come together and agreed that certain needs are common and best provided by government because individually, they are not affordable.

Therefore, the government levies a tax. They are taking my money and pooling it to provide multiple services that I could not afford or accomplish efficiently on my own - and they are doing it without my consent. I gave my tacit consent, however, when I chose to live on this street. I can move to the desert, find an oasis with a well, and create a survivalist lifestyle. That is the only way that my income will not be redistributed for someone else's benefit in addition to mine. Civil society involves giving up a certain portion of individual choice for the benefit of the many.

The tax code of the U.S. has been controlled by special interest groups getting their "pork" over the years for their deductions. Therefore, it is very complex and unfair. Those with extreme wealth have the financial capacity to maneuver their funds to take advantage of those loop holes and havens to just about pay no tax yet still receive the many benefits of civil society.

The basics of life require a minimum income. For me, it's $3000 a month for a basic existence. For others it is more; for others less. Many factors determine this amount which some statistician can determine for every circumstance. If I am taxed 10% on my minimum requirement, I can no longer meet my necessities in life and will have to seek assistance from somewhere. The most fluid is food. Another is health care. Those are the two that people give up. My stepmother gave all her food to those with less than she had and then drank Slim fast. She cut her medicine in half, thinking that would do almost as well.

A person in my circumstances with $6000 a month has $3000 a month extra. A 10% tax in no way has any impact on the basics of life. Therein lies the difference. Both people are working hard and contributing their tax; for one, the tax is a burden that lowers their lifestyle less than minimum, for the other, the tax means nothing. Both receive the same benefits from civil society; but the person earning more also has more choices in life and benefits greater from the society as a whole.

Thus, a progressive tax is not a burden to the wealthy, but any tax adjustment up is a burden to the poor and any small adjustment down is a major contribution to their household. A downward tax for the wealthy means nothing.

Therefore, in a civil society that is both independent and dependent, citizens can agree to care for each other. I can input data for a philanthropic organization for free and the wealthy person who pays a higher percentage of income tax than me may benefit from the organizations programs. By keeping my tax rate lower, I can meet my basic necessities and not be a burden to society; I can also give back.

The entire tax code cannot be immediately revised. It can be altered on a temp basis, however, to help reduce the deficit and bring those who have gained the most from civil society into a fairer position in terms of what they give back, not by virtue of contributions of choice but out of duty.

My friend's family tithed 10% of every dime and gift that came into their family members all the time I knew them. The father was a postman and the mom did some bookkeeping at a factory. They had five children. Their tithe was a duty. For them, it was not a choice. Their income was so low that small tithe made little difference in the tax they owed. That tithe came out of their necessities.

Compare that to the voluntary or tithing of the extremely wealthy who carve off $millions to charity that have no impact on their daily lives and receive major deductions on their income taxes for their duty to the nation from which they acquired their wealth, and often the backs of workers in their factories who are barely making it from paycheck to paycheck.

I interviewed a small business owner whose business is growing by leaps and bounds in this terrible economy. He has taken on a hundred new employees for the small manufacturing facility. "You know," he said, "I could add another twenty workers; but I want to make sure we have enough business so I can pay my current staff a solid wage, provide them with health benefits and encourage them to start saving for their future. To start, that will put a crimp in our profits and the salaries taken by my family (the owners). However, without the workers, we will not have an income. Therefore, they are the most important."

Wow, I just hope he continues to grow by leaps and bounds. If that sentiment was shared by the major corporations instead of their endless greed for more profits and less concern for the workers that make the products, the country would be in a better place.





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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 1:43 pm

What on earth is wrong with America becoming civilized like the rest of the world?

Do we have to be proud of our inhumanity or could we become decent?

We have the best military in the world--why not have the best healthcare, education, care of the poor?

We are too hung up on words--left, right, etc.,
I feel we need a decency party.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 4:41 pm

“I also disagree with your assertion that the elites are redistributing wealth from the bottom up. The bottom has no wealth to redistribute; it consumes wealth.”



This just isn’t true Victor. Read what I posted. There is no way a person with rational thought can get past these facts.



“Over the past 25/30 years there has been a tremendous redistribution of wealth, but it's been going from the bottom to the top. Even though all of the facts are easy to find, you just can't get the right wing to admit it's the same thing.

All one has to do is compare three things. One: The fact that the wealthy have been getting much wealthier in this time frame. More millionaires and billionaires have been created than ever before in history. Two: Even though more and more workers have been laid off, productivity has gone up by leaps and bounds. This of course means more profit for corporations, who, after all, are in business to make money. And Three: Workers wages have remained almost flat during this time frame. Which means that money has been systematically taken from them (via lay offs and few raises) profits have increased tremendously, and those profits have gone into the creation of millionaires and billionaires.”




That's not something that someone just made up, Victor. These are facts, and quite easy to prove facts at that. There are those who don't want to believe this is true, but I've already stated that. Believeing this isn't true doesn't make it any less true, though, and saying the bottom doesn't generate any wealth doesn't make that true either. Everyone that labors for someone else is generating wealth, and if the wealthy the generate is going into someone elses bank account, then it is certainly a redistribution of wealth.
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joefrank
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A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 6:06 pm

9/25/2012

I guess the elite democratic socialist would love to see

the very old ( Duponts, Mellons, Vanderbilts, etc.) leave

the country before their soaked dry, it took their families

150 years to obtain their wealth and I for one don't see why

they should be soaked more for taxes, has the democratic party

gone so socialistic ( far left,) oh excuse me I can't mention the

name Pres.Obama I'm liable to be called a racist ! And I dare anyone

here call me a racist, you would be sorry !! The fair way to taxes

for everyone Middle Wealthy , Poor, 35% Vat Tax, get rid of all of the

deductions..I see the socialist democratic party and Pres. Obama

hasn't even thought of this idea.......



Joe....A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 634186
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 7:53 pm

Again, it is the extremes that make everything difficult. I repeat, no one wants to soak the rich. However, much of their wealth was made off the backs of workers, as Don has said, whose own wealth went downhill while the wealthy gained in theirs. To expect the wealthy to pay a fair share of tax (they haven't paid a fair share in years...) is not "soaking the rich." In reverse, the persons being "soaked" have been the middle class - that's why they are moving into the impoverished class while the wealthy get wealthier. It's so frustrating to see it so clearly and not be able to communicate it properly.

I have never labeled anyone for having views different than mine. I do believe what Romney/Ryan say they will do; and their plans will harm middle class and impoverished people while adding even more wealth to those who turn only a miniscule amount back to this country, the source of their wealth. It makes no sense to me to harm middle class and impoverished people to benefit those whose wealth has been gaining at geometric rates. Why anyone would want this gap to continue to grow does not make sense to me. The Affordable Care Act does not increase the deficit or take from Medicare but rather has provisions to end fraud that save money and extend Medicare. To end that insurance is criminal; therefore, I hate to see anyone vote for Romney/Ryan when the only reason the Affordable Care Act became an issue is because the Republicans used it as a propaganda weapon to get President Obama out of office. The good already from the Affordable Care Act has even Romney stuttering and admitting to some of its better pieces - all the ones already implemented and saving lives.

Romney/Ryan have also stated they will end all abortions for any reason. That is ruthless implementation of a religious point of view not shared by many spiritual people, including me. I believe in the sanctity of all life; but also in the exceptions to that belief. My belief in the sanctity of life is greater than the religious right because it includes the elimination of capital punishment, the end to wars, the end to civilian gun ownership and more. However, if a person does not believe the same as me, that does not make them murderers. Just because I believe that there is a time when the need for an abortion is greater than my belief in the sanctity of life, that does not make me a baby killer and the billboards that say I am are an insult to thinking, feeling, spiritual people. It may be the sanctity of the mother's life at stake.

Women's insurance premiums have previously been more expensive than men's. The Affordable Care Act eliminated that distinction. The co-pays required for life saving screenings have been eliminated. These screenings save money by catching early stage illnesses before the costs become critical. Since men cannot be trusted to use protection to prevent pregnancy and disease through sexual activity, birth control access must be provided for all women. Better to control births before conception than face abortion for unwanted children. Why should poor women be punished by not having the same access to the cost savings for their women's issues that wealthy women have because their insurance covers everything? What insurance covered for women was never an issue until the Republican propaganda to end the Affordable Care Act. Suddenly, women's healthcare needs become political footballs when they should be a non-issue, included in any healthcare policy.

There are many more facts; but telling facts takes time. It's much easier to teach hate through sound bites and slogans that are easy to repeat and name calling and disrespect to a sitting president that amazes me. I was raised to respect the Office of the President. This president deserves respect. He brought home the troops from Iraq. He kept the country out of the abyss. The stock market is zooming. Jobs increased under his administration consistently when they were dumping every day before he was elected. He cut taxes to small businesses 18 times and continues to look at the needs of small businesses. The Small Business Administration assistance has been pumped up and most start-up businesses access the "free" services paid by you and me.

So, I am doing no name calling to those who wish to vote in a new president; I am just concerned for the country if they do. All the fears leveled against President Obama are so much dust in terms of what he has really accomplished and who he is today, a world leader and a president I respect. Most of the hate-mongering and name calling against this president is just stirred up irrational hate created by those whose self-interest will be better served under Romney/Ryan than our current president who serves all the people. They have just used religious dogma to rile up people to vote in their candidate. Pity.

As for the deficit. No one in Europe is worried about the deficit. The stock market is not worried about the deficit. It's easy to fix. Full employment will fix it rapidly as more workers pay into the tax system. Creating a fair tax structure will fix it. Rewarding companies who keep their jobs or bring back the jobs to the U.S. will help fix it. Eliminating subsidies and corporate welfare will fix it. Fixing the deficit does not have to be done by eliminating health insurance that the Obama administration succeeded in implementing when no other administration was able. Emergency room health care is the most expensive and according to Romney, is "socialism."

Night all.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 9:01 pm

joefrank wrote:
9/25/2012

I guess the elite democratic socialist would love to see

the very old ( Duponts, Mellons, Vanderbilts, etc.) leave

the country before their soaked dry, it took their families

150 years to obtain their wealth and I for one don't see why

they should be soaked more for taxes, has the democratic party

gone so socialistic ( far left,) oh excuse me I can't mention the

name Pres.Obama I'm liable to be called a racist ! And I dare anyone

here call me a racist, you would be sorry !! The fair way to taxes

for everyone Middle Wealthy , Poor, 35% Vat Tax, get rid of all of the

deductions..I see the socialist democratic party and Pres. Obama

hasn't even thought of this idea.......



Joe....A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 634186






I don't think anyone wants these people soaked dry.

Check the tax rates from Eisenhower's era and you will find them to be much higher than now.

The rich people had not thought of redistribution. They thought of taxes as a bill they owed and paid.



Last edited by alice on Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyTue Sep 25, 2012 9:39 pm

9/26/2012

I remember reading once that the highest tax rate in

the 1950's was 80 % ?

Cheers..Joe...Very Happy
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 8:38 am

So quit feeling sorry for the rich. They have quite enough of the "poor me"pity party mentality--speaking of victims. The rich whine more about their taxes and surprisingly the poor feel sorry for them as well.'

I am not poor and have been fortunate--never have been.
We always had food to eat and my folks paid my way through private schools.
In retrospect, the education I got in a Public college was better than the private schools.
My husband had continuous employment and I worked also to put the kids through school.

I get very sick of the self made people who say no one helped them, they worked their way through school blah,blah, blah!
Well, there was a school there--where did it come from?
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 10:51 am

Alice, I like your practical approach. I was considered "poor" because I was an emancipated minor at the age of 17. I worked co-op in high school and made straight A's in my subjects. Until my junior year, I took bookkeeping and accounting because I could not afford college. Then a counselor told me about a special government grant for kids like me who were brainy but had no money and no college preparation. The belief was that the U.S. was losing out on talent because poor kids didn't take college prep subjects because they worked.

I just had to get in a few more math and English classes and keep my A average to the end of my senior year so I went to summer school between my junior and senior year. Off I went to Michigan State Honors College for brainy kids, most of whom were from Chicago, Detroit and New York and on academic scholarships, living in the dorm with me. To keep my grant/loan package, I had to maintain a 3.8 gpa. I had no foreign language, the minimum chemistry and no algebra. I nearly went crazy trying to get in all those classes that started with kids who had it in high school. The French teacher told me I spent more hours in the French lab than any student he ever enrolled.

I worked my way through all right; no sleep and struggle. My "package" also included twenty hours a week typing in the Michigan State Graduate office. It was all very difficult and my "gift" from the government required academic excellence. When I finished school, I still had a bunch of loans to pay back, but I did have a break with the academic scholarship for tuition. Was I self-made? Not on your life. The high school counselor, the government grant and more helped me accomplish more than I imagined in life. My "gift" probably contributed to my desire to teach and later to become engaged in helping other people with a "hand up" since one had helped me.

By the way, my first roommate was very wealthy and very brainy. Her dad had suites in every Hilton around the world as some big shot, international physician/diplomat. Our room was like a Hilton Hotel (hope they charged her dad). She partied her way out the first semester. After that, my room looked like a monastic cell, but I didn't have a roommate. She did help me dress for a benefit dance - and in her clothes and jewelry - I remember feeling like a princess.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 11:08 am

Folks,

The redistribution of wealth in this country has been from the middle class to the wealthy and the poor, not from the bottom up. I reiterate that the bottom generates no wealth, they simply consume it. Of course we can debate or pick and choose different statistics as to what we mean by the bottom. I mean THE BOTTOM, not the working class and certainly not the middle class. Not everyone at the bottom works or adds value to society. The working class generates a great deal of wealth but would be unable to do so without the capital provided by the wealthy, by corporations, and by a system that rewards reasonable risk taking. The government produces nothing but debt and is the least efficient means for planning any economy as has been proven time and again in the last century.

And, with all due respect Alice, you can't possibly mean that we are uncivilized in relation to the rest of the world. I have no words to answer that assertion other than to strongly disagree with it. Nor are we inhuman or indecent. We do have the best military in the world (thank God for that), and the best health care (not as accessible to everyone as it ought to be--that is a completely different issue) and the best education at the university level, though certainly not at the K-12 level. (Though we spend more money on k-12 education than most any other country on the planet--yet more proof that money does not fix everything in politics or in life.)

Also, I don't agree that the problem is that we are hung up on labels. Labels matter. They are descriptive. They reflect a philosophy and a world view. That does not mean that we ought to fling them about thoughtlessly, and I try not to do that. People who are afraid of labels for their ideology and constantly reinvent what they want like-thinking people to be called are invariably hiding. (Some Communists that hide behind the kinder/gentler Green party banner with the same old, tired, dangerous ideas, Liberals who demand to be called progressives, self styled anarchists that can neither spell nor articulate the tenets of the philosophy they coopt and hide behind while throwing rocks at police, burning cars and looting at their local G7 meetings or Occupy Wallstreet rally, etc.). Nevertheless, it is ideas that matter far more than labels. I tell my students all the time to "Beware hyperbole" as it lessens rather than strengthens their arguments; that is something we all need to be aware of, myself included. Politics and ethics are not black and white--other than to extremists, and I have no use for extremists as they are dangerous, rigid in their thinking to the point of rigamortis, and it is a waste of my time to engage them in conversation or debate.

Fundamentally, we will simply need to agree to disagree as I am tapped out on this particular topic.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 11:19 am

Victor, I read you post with much intrerest and agree with many points you made, however you stated that we have the best healthcare in the world. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 11:36 am

Victor,

I said what I meant. I still like you though and I will agree to disagree bounce
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 1:15 pm

Likewise, Alice.

Abe,

By the best healthcare I mean qualitatively the best--the most advanced, the state of the art. We have the best research and development in healthcare on earth overall. Canada may have a better healthcare system in the minds of many as to cost and accessibility. Likewise our friends in the E.U. But people the world over come to us when they need the very best care that is available for most specialties; we don't flock to Canada or France or anywhere else when the lives of our loved ones are on the line.

Universal healthcare is a wonderful thing--my family in Spain enjoys it and I am glad for them. But it comes at a cost, including the managing of care and waiting lists for essential services including life saving surgery. To say nothing of contributing to the near bankrupting of the country.

From the point of view of utilitarianism, universal health care does provide the greatest good to the greatest number of people. No doubt about that. From the point of view of quality and immediate access to the best care available, not so much. The two are incompatible. If a loved one needed care, I would not transfer them anywhere else. My dad would have died on a waiting list for a pace maker rather than having had one installed 24 hours after a very dangerous condition was discovered quite by accident as he was being readied for a gall bladder surgery.

This is another area in which I am certain that most of our colleagues here will not agree with me. That's fine with me. I pay through the nose for the best healthcare I can get for my family. I refuse an HMO at half the cost because it is important to me to be able to see a specialist without going through a referral system by gatekeepers whose express job it is to manage the cost--not the quality--of health care. I am not wealthy--not by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. I drive an old car (11 years old) and live in an old house in need of much updating that I cannot afford. That is the sacrifice I make for my health care which is better than that which Canadians, Spaniards and my British friends enjoy. Period.

Like redistribution of wealth at a greater scale than we already do, we can also redistribute health care and any other scarce resource. I agree we need to find a better way of doing it than what Congress rushed through with Pelosi urging Representatives to vote for the bill and read it later, or what existed prior to that. But I won't smile and have the government erode the healthcare I have sacrificed a lifetime to enjoy. Nor will I go quietly into the night as our President assures me that the changes he plans for social security and medicare will not negatively impact anyone over the age of 55 as I am close to but under that magic age and have paid for that entitlement without ever taking a penny out of it or any other social program in my life. Changing the rules in the late innings of the game because Congress and every administration in the past 20 years has chosen to ignore the problem is unconscionable. Shifting an even greater burden on the generations whose futures have already been mortgaged beyond their ability to ever repay is what makes me ashamed not of this country, but of her government.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 2:03 pm

Unfortunately, I also know of many people who go to Mexico and foreign lands for surgeries and dental care because it is less expensive and the physicians have excellent credentials. They pay for their "vacations" with their savings.

Unfortunately, many hands are out in our healthcare system. We pay for the healthcare savings in other parts of the world by our higher cost pharmaceuticals that they negotiate down. That's just one example. Hospital billings cover the costs of the indigent through the billings to insured and paying "customers." We are paying for indigent care; we are just paying at the highest possible cost instead of preventive lower costs.

Yes, for those who have the funds to invest in the best insurance, the best care is available. My friend's cancer care within the bounds of her health policy concerned me. Another friend had a similar surgery at a cancer clinic with much better results. While our care in this country may be the best in the world; it is not the best for those who have no insurance.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 3:35 pm

9/26/2012

Victor..



..........A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 973110

.........Cheers..Joe...A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 925501
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Sep 26, 2012 10:37 pm

Victor,
I respect your opinions from a learned man. We base our opinions on what we experience, read and hear from others. As for health care, many form opinions based on personal experience or from people who relate their experience.
I have experienced surgery in the US and in Germany. In both instances the surgeons were proficient; however the care part was notably different. I had one of the best healthcare insurance programs via the company where I worked in the US. Even that had limitations. My US Surgeon had to call the insurance company to get their okay for me to stay an extra night at the hospital. I was able to see my hospital bill and noted the costs involved. The most outrageous cost was a single aspirin for $5.00.
My experience in Germany was quite the opposite. I was able to choose what doctor or facility I wanted. My family doctor made recommendations, however the decision was mine. There was never a question about care or services provided. Whatever I needed was provided without question. A routine annual physical catches many problems before they become emergencies. I had a heart valve replaced as well as a by-pass. My wife had breast cancer surgery as well as a more recent surgery involving the stomach. Both problems were detected with a routine physical paid for by our healthcare provider. We are both alive and have excellent follow-up care. Never a question or concern about getting the proper pharmaceuticals or the cost.

I believe that America has the capability and proficiency to perform using the latest technology; however I also believe that only the rich can afford such care. Insurance companies dictate what they will cover and the limits of what they will pay and that affects the care one receives. To speak of Europe as a whole is an unfair comparison. Spain, England, France, Germany, France, etc., have their own programs. Although in many ways they are similar, how they are administered are not the same. To compare Canada’s program to America or Europe’s programs is also an easy, but erroneous comparison.

To say one is the “Best in the World” needs clarification. It is the “Care” part that varies significantly as well as the cost. My experience where I live in getting care promptly and efficiently is a good one. Flying a patient by helicopter at the scene of an accident because the doctor decides that it is best, is not a decision by a healthcare provider, but that of the physician. Just knowing that one is in capable hands and that whatever needs to be done will be done is a comfort. The care of the patient comes first. That, in my view, is good healthcare.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyThu Sep 27, 2012 9:06 am

I agree with you, D.K. and believe I've said as much as well. I was clarifying what I meant by best healthcare. We need to address the problem for those without any or enough insurance coverage WITHOUT dismantling the best healthcare system in the world in the process. People go to Mexico and India for elective surgery (including cosmetic surgery) and life saving surgery when they have no insurance that covers it here. They go there for cheap healthcare, not for the best healthcare.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 1:09 pm

Abe,

Sorry for the delayed response--I thought this thread was dead and had not looked at it for awhile.

The opinions of learned men and women are highly overrated and are one of the factors that got us in to the mess we're in. Detractors' heated opinions to the contrary, President Obama and Governor Romney are both very bright, and very well educated, as are their advisers. Acquiring knowledge is simple--most any idiot can do it, not just gifted people. Acquiring wisdom, not so much.

Opinions are like bellybuttons: everyone has one. We can debate the relative aesthetic value of an "innie" versus an "outie" until the end of time without much profit. They kinda both work. Opinions informed by our our personal political/ethical/religious/experiential point of view differ little in their value from that debate. We can all find facts to support our conclusions (or prejudices) with little trouble. We may express our conclusions better or worse, and may have different tools in our toolchest for making our point, but distilled to their essence it is still all about outies versus innies, conservative versus liberal, and there is no right or wrong. The people who are utterly, completely and fervently convinced of the contrary for the most part would be better served by residing in padded rooms free to enjoy their delusions while doing no harm to themselves or others, be they lifetime listeners of NPR or Rush Limbaugh dittoheads. (Anyone who is proud to be referred to as a dittohead, by the way, should run to the head of the line when we get ready to distribute padded rooms. Likewise those who believe that God, if there were a God, would speak through MSNBC. Let's put them in the same room with Nerf bats and watch the fun unfold.)

As to healthcare, I have no problem with an honest, open, accurate debate about the pros and cons of any socialized medicine program and whether is is in America's interest. I object only to the unmitigated bald-faced lies perpetrated by those who tell us that such a system would NOT cost much more than what we are paying now, that Medicare in its present form would be preserved, and that medical services would not be redistributed from the haves to the have nots (e.g., that the quality, quantity and availability of these services will not be impacted by a any socialized medicine program by whatever name we assign to it). That's not an innie vs. outie debate, but rather a "we can walk to the moon if we chant yes we can loud enough" vs. "no you can't."

The $5 aspirin comes courtesy not of unbridled greed (not that unbridled greed does not exist) but of our current form of shifting cost from the non insured (who use emergency rooms as their local doctor) to the insured.

One learned man to another, of course, reasonable people may differ--except on the walking to the moon part.


Last edited by Victor D. Lopez on Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: A modest proposal for a new century . . .   A modest proposal for a new century . . . - Page 11 EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 4:28 pm

When the political discussions were moved, I mentioned that they would get lost - and so they did. However, thanks for bringing this one back. I cannot resist a "funny" I saw on Facebook. Maxine is saying, "I hear so far there's no intelligent life on Mars; so it's true that's where men came from." Of course, I don't mean that at all; but it was funny .....

It's also refreshing to see varying points of view discussed with some openness. If only that methodology could be put into use in the Congress!
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