A modest proposal for a new century . . .

It will be hard to respect Romney any more than Bush. Romney has made it clear that he will cancel the Affordable Care Act. He supports the religious right legislation. He is totally a flunky to the interest groups. I will not be disrespectful in action any more than with Bush. I respect the office of the president and those in Congress. It doesn't change the fact that the system is broken.

Fortunately, we do have great freedoms in this country, most of us. I just know there is a large segment of the population for whom times are difficult and when they become employed, that will end the debt crisis. I also know that the rich are getting richer and the rest of us poorer in many ways and the Republicans have contributed to this major by using the "debt scare" to not provide programs that would have improved life for many already, = including not passing the jobs for veterans.

It's a big lie that the Republicans have sold the public about the Democrats sending us into debt and more debt. If lies win, it is distressing. If people who are sold lies and accept them without questioning their truth can say such horrible things on the Internet and then say it is in the name of Christ, I find that distressing too. I am also upset by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and those hate mongering ratings whores who stir up frustrated people into a frenzy when they need to put their energy into something positive.

So, Alice, that's my concern in a nutshell. I'm a spiritual person who has lived many lives in many places and represent pretty well a "U.S. citizen" of my era. I have knowledge and wisdom and don't use offensive language except rarely and respect my elders and those in positions that should be respected. I have worked in D.C. I understand power, privilege, money and lies. I'm tired of it.

I've worked in private corporations that were corrupt; I understand the business mind. The United States is not a business; it may be considered a public/private partnership. Unfortunately we all lose when the private partner has the majority stock.

Quote :

It will be hard to respect Romney any more than Bush

"Will be"? Have you decided the election already?

Annie

9/20/2012

The Headlines scream on Nov.6, 2012



DUSTY WINS BY LANDSLIDE 110,000 EXTRA VOTES !



Cheers..Joe...

I despise no one. I disagree with a lot of people, but cannot despise them.
We have Republicans here`, DJS, a war hero.
I like him.
I am through with politics--too much hatred for me.
I will vote for Obama.

Thanks Alice, but I'm no hero, just an old soldier that did his job...Happiness is being an ex-Airborne Ranger and still being alive to brag about it! Just for the record, I voted for Obama...just won't do it again and not thrilled with Romney either!

DJS,

Thanks and God bless you.

I was answering Alice's question. It will be difficult to respect Romney if he wins. It will be difficult to respect the election system, period. It will not be difficult to respect President Obama if he wins. Did that clear it up?

I think the election is still a question. The rapid fire twisting of truth and the readiness of the Romney followers to swallow and repeat lies leads me to believe he has a chance. Apparently you can fool some of the people all of the time.

E. Don Harpe has done a very careful, factual elicitation of the issues on Facebook and some here. In order to argue with him, people have reverted to saying they will pray for him. Gentleman that he is, he said he's happy to have any prayers. In other words, when Republicans realized they no longer have an argument, that they are really duped, they simply accept Romney as God's choice. That's difficult to combat.

It's my belief that as soon as the Republican party had a nominee, defective as he is, the hard corps republicans signed on regardless of what he says or does. As I've said before, it's like my union dad who always said if a dog was running on his party ticket he would vote for a dog before the other party. That's the case here. Everyone knows Romney is a joke as a candidate for President, but people are pulling around them any little bit of supporting statements to justify their blind support. They have equally followed the teaching from the pulpits of their church without question. Thanks to the propaganda of the Bush Administration to keep the people stupified after 9/11, the Republicans are convinced that patriotism, God and country require voting for a Republican.

The reality is that may have applied in some distant past, but today's Republican party is detrimental to the progress of women, supports unbridled corporate greed and considers people who the Bush Administration forced into poverty as a scourge on corporate and privileged wealth. They consider those who are wealthy as endowed with superior abilities to make the right choices and those who are suffering made the wrong choices, thus deserving their plight and certainly deserving no hand up for those better blessed.

I see zero compassion in a formerly compassionate party. I only see greed and self-interest and lies to convince Republicans to stay with it in spite of harming themselves.

Several pieces of legislation that would benefit the country are being "held" until after the election. Let people suffer a little longer for the sake of making certain that nothing beneficial is passed during Obama's time. Difficult to respect people who harm their own country for the sake of their re-election. Sounds like corporate greed to me.

Agree DK. Greed has replaced need. Winning at all costs is becoming a norm. Those days of: "It's not who wins or loses, but how you play the game" no longer exist. When you hear quotes like: "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" one can understand why we are in trouble. If deceit can help you win, it is acceptable. If the truth will hurt your chances, you don't speak truth.
As Victor pointed out, in the end, we get what we deserve.

dkchristi wrote:

I was answering Alice's question. It will be difficult to respect Romney if he wins. It will be difficult to respect the election system, period. It will not be difficult to respect President Obama if he wins. Did that clear it up?

-------
I see zero compassion in a formerly compassionate party. I only see greed and self-interest and lies to convince Republicans to stay with it in spite of harming themselves.

Several pieces of legislation that would benefit the country are being "held" until after the election. Let people suffer a little longer for the sake of making certain that nothing beneficial is passed during Obama's time. Difficult to respect people who harm their own country for the sake of their re-election. Sounds like corporate greed to me.

I know you were, DK, and apologize for the tone of my comment.

I was focused on your use of the word, "will" as opposed to "would" or "might." It sounds a bit like self-fulfilling prophecy. I do believe that we can contribute to the creation of things we don't want. When we assume the worst outcome, that is often the one we get.

If I come on too strong with such posts, it's because I feel a little bit like a non-smoker inhaling side-stream smoke. I get caught up in the tension. I've even tried to leave this place because of it, but the place itself as well as all of the people here have become too important to me. I can't seem to walk away just because my own limited perspective is different from someone else's, especially when the someones are people I like and respect.

So I sometimes lose my hard-won objectivity.

Sorry about that.

Annie

9/21/2012

Last night I re-joined Face Book, I decided I won't let

anyone bully me because of their political beliefs ,I left a

very strong message about being Americans and politics.

Cheers..Joe.

Well, I haven't figured out how to leave, pretty much I still get the hateful posts, I just can't reply to them....

DK,
Don't go we need you there.
One of my Pills said he wished there were more folks like you.
I agreed and said, "Yes, she is for Obama."
Too funny.

DK,

Google, "How do I delete my Facebook Account". It will give you step by step...it takes 14 days for it to completely go away. You can just close it if you want and then restart later, but to completely delete you need to go through the steps.

Hear, hear, Alice!

D.J., To paraphrase that old philosopher Mr. Gump, heroes are as heroes do (or have done). One of the reasons I always vote is because people like you have bled and died for me to have the privilege. It is the least I can do to repay their faith in our nation--even when voting for the lesser evil, as I too often have done since I proudly cast my first vote at 18 for Reagan.

I have cast votes I've regretted, including voting for Bush the second time around. I should have cast no vote for president in that election. My fear is that no matter what someone from the left does--especially if they embrace their socialist tendencies openly--the left will never turn against them. Castro subjecting Cubans to a lifetime of suffering is the fault of the U.S. for refusing to trade with or give monetary aid to Cuba. Stalin's enslaving, torturing and killing a countless number of dissidents while subjecting formerly free peoples to the yoke of soviet oppression and privation, that was Hitler's fault long after the war was won and that tyrant was erased from the world by his own hand (not soon enough, alas) as there were still enemies of freedom afoot that needed to be exterminated. Chavez today using the weapon of expropriation and income redistribution to systematically deconstruct the professional classes in Venezuela while pandering to the rabble and having them assist in the quashing of the voices of dissent (primarily students and the professional classes) at the business end of a gun, all America's fault of course--especially those aforementioned idiot, selfish Republicans whether they are in or out of power. The ends justify the means for these folks, and they embrace utilitarianism and democracy, but only when it is convenient. (Read, not when their ideology or unpopular partisan pet cause is at risk). Does that sound in the least bit familiar?

It worries me when I read people I like and respect heatedly attacking Romney for whom it should be amply clear to anyone who has even skimmed my previous posts here, I share no great personal love but who has done very little to earn the kind of vitriolic rhetoric foisted on him--certainly less than, say, Bill and Hillary Clinton before and during the former President's tenure in office. This reflects an attitude that is at the root of what brought us Mao's China, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Castro's Cuba, Stalin's Soviet Union and every other repressive regime from the left--a legacy I would think we would all like to turn away from rather than embrace.

Listen carefully to the rhetoric from the left. Nothing is off limits when attacking the right or even the center. Republicans are selfish, stupid, evil little trolls who just want to rape the land, exploit workers, amass as much money and influence as possible, and are simply WRONG on every issue--unlike the right-thinking people on the left who need to reinvent their philosophy every generation or two to retain even the appearance of credibility as it falls into disrepute (Reds turn Greens, Liberals turn Progressives, the popular media winks and the beat goes on.) The compassionate, kind, right-thinking leftists embrace all peoples of the world as brothers and sisters (except, of course, the evil, stupid, wrong-headed, selfish, Republicans and, oh, yes, their sympathizers--Christians, especially Catholics, religious people generally, entrepreneurs, the wealthy, etc.).

Obama and his followers blame Bush. It's all Bush's fault. Never mind that the 60% increase to the national debt--all six trillion of additional debt--led by stimulus packages and bailouts have had a nominal impact on the economy and on unemployment, all brought by the most cowardly of all political tactics, redistribution without the pain--just encumber any possible prosperity for future generations, get the Fed to print more dollars and thus further devalue the currency, kick the can down the road, and tell us how four years of this great philosophy is just not long enough to yield any appreciable results.

I don't remember Reagan whining about the incredible mess he inherited from that other great Liberal president, Jimmy Carter, in 1980. Most here are certainly old enough to remember the double-digit interest rates, the double digit inflation, the Iranian hostages in our embassy and garbage being taken out by Iranian "students" (one of whom now apparently leads that nation) using an American flag. At least President Carter actually earned his Nobel Peace Prize. That is certainly one major difference in the administrations. No more decent person has sat in the oval office than he. I hated his politics, but loved the man and his willingness to rise and fall on his principles.

In the current environemnt, even our President thought it appropriate to dismiss the Tea Party movement that spanked him for his arrogance in the midterm elections as Tea Baggers (a term that does not describe the party but rather a sexual act. Could that have been a Freudian slip? Perhaps. But I think it was specifically intended to demean members of a movement he finds inconvenient and, no doubt, as gross and wrong headed as the term he chose to describe it, doubtless to the delight of his supporters).

I hate no one--not our president, not the people on MSNBC, and not even the politicians with their hands in my (mostly empty) pockets who tell me I'm selfish if I resist their groping around for my hard-earned dollars and loose change as they take mandatory "investment," "fees," "contributions." and, oh yes, taxes--that label that seems to have all but disappeared along with the liberals who so fondly embrace it and their philosophy by any but its true name.

Hi, Victor,

Thank you.
I heard. I can't respond because I quit politics.

I was involved heavily in church politics and despite doing my best to be fair was criticized for everything.
The moment I set foot in the church, people would start complaining. Either the temperature in the church was too hot or too cold..............................

Victor, you touched on many issues. I think you do have opinions about right and wrong. How can one not take sides? We are either for something or against it. Sitting on the fence is an "I don't give a shit" attitude. And when they fall off the fence, no one will give a shit as to what side they land.

Abe F. March wrote:

.... I think you do have opinions about right and wrong. How can one not take sides? We are either for something or against it. Sitting on the fence is an "I don't give a shit" attitude. And when they fall off the fence, no one will give a shit as to what side they land.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one, Abe. We are not limited to either/or choices. Between black and white are limitless shades of grey - a whole spectrum of possibilities.

Finding the center of an issue does not mean one doesn't give a shit. It is not about taking the easy way out. On the contrary, it is about doing the hard work needed to achieve a balance that allows one to view both sides with compassion. It isn't about sitting on the fence; it's about tearing it down so that there are no sides - no landing because there is nothing left to fall from - no defeat, but a common victory. Instead of being limited to for or against choices, it is about joining our limitng perspectives into a larger view that encompasses both. It's about forming a cooperative where we can work together to achieve a better end than either side could have achieved without the help of the other.

It is about moving beyond polarities and seeing the poles as parts of a complementary whole.

We are all playing the same game.

Ann

Thanks Ann. You proved my point. Your decision to disagree was a stance you took - agree or disagree. It is now always about right and wrong, but can be about what we believe or don't believe. To remain neutral would mean you had no opinion.
just my opinion about the matter and how I see it.

Not saying you are wrong, Abe, just that you are looking at a portion of a whole from a different perspective.

9/22/2012

I think their should be no right nor a left but people

coming together in the center, the people telling the

Got., what it has to do and not do, we are their bosses

they don't boss us, the day they learn that then they'll

be better off and we'll be smarter for the better...



Cheers..Joe...

Sure glad I quit politics--didn't quit, but quit DISCUSSING politics.

There are reasons people talk about the weather:)

You made a choice Alice, and I respect that.

My opinion is that philosophical ideas, even my own, about peace and prosperity are a little like the Miss America contest where every contestant is for "World Peace" but they have no knowledge or opportunity to make a difference in world peace.

I can talk a pretty talk about looking at facts; but the reality is that I see facts that bring me to a different conclusion than someone else. How does that happen? Same facts; different conclusion.

I see several major domestic issues facing this nation: the high number of bread winners who do not have employment; the number of working poor, children and elderly without health insurance; the education system that is being destroyed by pulling out funds to support private owners of "non-profit" and for profit charter schools; the drift to the right of a large segment of the population; the political power of global corporations that leads to the great monetary divide in our current two-class system where the wealthy are getting wealthier and the rest are losing ground.

The national debt is not an issue to be "fixed." It is a symptom of what's wrong with the country. When the items listed above are fixed, the national debt will no longer be an issue nor will the "entitlement" programs.

None of these issues turned up overnight; the pillaging of education and the politicizing of an issue that should be controlled by a non-partisan, non legislative body has been going on for a long time. No president can fix it. No legislature can fix it. It will take a parent revolution to demand consistent education across the nation and a funding source that makes certain every child has an equal chance. The core of democracy is an educated citizenry - it's no wonder emerging nations have such trouble with democracy. Fanaticism is often borne from a lack of education and a mind open to propaganda.

A time of economic collapse is not a time for austerity. The Republicans that fired government workers took the stuffing out of their cities and states, bulging the roles of support systems since many of those fired were slipping toward the edge already. This is a time of government "make work" to keep money circulating. Since we have such an abundance of infrastructure near to crumbling, a Jobs bill was the appropriate solution.

A time of economic collapse is not a time to cut education. It's a time to provide mass retraining across the country for the $millions in jobs for which we are importing Asians.

I have run out of time to continue, but my drift is evident. You see, austerity that involves cuts to staffing is the business approach. However, the business is done with people it fires. The government still pays them; they just receive less and are no longer contributing to the tax base or to the GNP. So, as I see the facts, the Republicans austerity moves and obstruction to jobs bills are a continuation of the Bush policies that through us in the ditch in the first place. Yes, two unfunded wars are a major contribution and Bush is responsible and we must not forget.

Austerity that involves a thoughtful process of examining every department of government for excesses and seeking efficiencies involves sacred cows. It's very difficult. Lobbing off jobs can be done by someone with no education at all. Expertise is available to build up the small business component of the economy; it can be done.

DK said:

Quote :

...the reality is that I see facts that bring me to a different conclusion than someone else. How does that happen? Same facts; different conclusion.

My answer would be that you bring a different perception of those facts, due to where you are and to your past experiences of similar facts.

None of us have precisely the same perspective, and no one can see the whole picture. It's a bit like this diagram:



None of the shadow images are wrong, they are just incomplete because the light comes from different directions.

When we put our heads together, we can take your circle and my square and conclude that what we are both seeing is a cone umm - cylinder .

Ann

I'm with Ann. (and you you too, Joe) But you are absolutely right, Abe, in that of course I have opinions and make judgments on what is right and wrong. We all do at some level. (Anyone care to argue that torturing and killing a popular ambassador and dragging his body through the streets is justified under the rules of any civilized society?)

My opinions are just that, though. They are not truth or gospel and are not based on dogma or party affiliation. I know what Ann eloquently states, that there are endless shades of grey. That is where I (for all of my wordiness, sarcasm and sometimes genuine anger) differ from true believers. I recognize that there are other points of view and want them expressed, want to read/hear them and re-evaluate my positions from time to time. I voted for Perot, not Bush 41, the second time around. And though I advocate for my point of view, I don't denigrate the point of view of others--except for true believers of all stripes who are the perfect road to perdition for any country that allows them to dominate its civil dialogue. I admired Senator Pat Moynihan a staunch Democrat and one of the wisest men who ever served his country in Washington. I've even voted for the current senior senator from NY--a staunch liberal--once. Any of these acts is enough to get me voted off the conservative and Republican reservations. And that's just peachy with me.

Being open to the possibility of changing one's mind and accepting that people of good will can differ in their political philosophies, their world view and their ethical point of reference does no mean that we need to embrace all ideas as equal. If you worship Satan, don't expect me to sit through one of your services. If you believe that Jews (blacks, women, gays, hispanics, muslims . . . etc.) are the root cause of all the world's ills, don't expect me to sit through your lecture on the subject. If you believe that cutting off the heads of non believers is a moral duty or an appropriate act of war, don't expect me to shrug my shoulders and say, "could be."

We live in oceans of grey areas. But there are black and white shores that civilized people should recognize and be held accountable to not cross with impunity.

And Alice (should you still be reading this), if we really lost you we are indeed in trouble. If I am to blame I'll go back to doing my neglected work and let others continue the conversation, or not.