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 Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !

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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:58 pm

E. Don Harpe wrote:
With all due respect, I'm not sure how you know what I have seen Alice. Maybe you're brother is a mess, but I'll stick with my statement that says I've never seen anyone hurt due to spanking at home or at school.

I hope you never have to see or deal with him.

I am glad you have never seen what I have seen.
I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
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Betty Fasig
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 5:27 pm

I have to put in a word here.

The trouble with hitting, yelling, punching, spanking is that the persons doing it often are angry and out of control. I have been slapped across the room at two, punched in the stomach, and hit with boards that had nails. Not a bit of that was for my good. It was anger unleashed.

To me, there is no calm way to beat a child with paddles, hands, or switches. There is no calm way to scream and yell and belittle a child who is only a foot and a half high.

I can remember it. It was fear that I felt. I wish no child has to endure either assult. The grown up is at least five feet high, supposed to be the person who protects the little one from the harms of the world. I do not see the benifit of violence. It begets violence.

Somewhere along the line, the parents have to grow up, leave what was done to them behind and pass on a better life to their children so that the cycle is broken.

Violence is violence. To unleash it on a helpless child is criminal.

Love,

Betty
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Betty Fasig
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 5:32 pm

Dear E. Don,

I know you know that I know that there is a difference between a swat on the butt and a beating. Wink

Love,

Betty
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 6:03 pm

Betty,

I am so sorry for you. You have endured much too much!
I don't want little children to suffer. They will have plenty of that in life.
Who wishes to be remembered as an instigator of pain? Not I.


Last edited by alice on Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 6:45 pm

E. Don Harpe wrote:
Or they may have learned that there is more to consequences than a few minutes in time out, or a game taken away, or some additional pages to be copied.

Sorry, Alice, I just think you're wrong on this one. I've never seen a kid that a spanking at home or in school hurt.

Our teachers use wooden paddles, and I got only one paddling with it. That was enough for me to learn that there are things you just don't do. Time out and others methods just don't have the same effect.

I am wrong--glad I am wrong and will stay wrong. I want my legacy to my children to be one of kindness and protection. Fortunately my husband and I agree--that 's what matters.

I asume you and Helen share views and agree with each other.

Glad you are back, you do liven up discussions. lol!
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 8:32 pm

Betty and Alice, you both know I think of you as good friends, and I value your viewpoint, I just don't agree with it.

And yes, I know the difference between a spanking and a beating. I also know that some parents go way beyond spankings, and when I was a kid I did indeed see some of this happen. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the judicious use of a few swats to the backside of a child by a parent or a teacher in order to show that child that some behavior will not be tolerated. And I've never seen it fail to get the lesson across.

I will never stop believing that many of our societies problems began when we took away the rights of the teachers to spank unruly children. I might add that I never saw a teacher spank a child that didn't need it.

So, I'll just stay with my opinion while you do the same. I won't try to change your minds, and rest assured that there's really nothing you can say that will change mine.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 8:45 pm

I once wanted to go to my cousin's house to watch Superman on television. I was probably 9 or 10 at the time. My nephew and his friend, who were both about 4 years younger than I also wanted to go, but I knew my cousin would not let that many kids inside the house to watch TV, so I made a decision. Remember, at that time we didn't have indoor plumbing, so we had an outhouse, a toilet, in our back yard, about 30 yards or so from the house. Another friend and I took the two littler kids out behind the toilet and tied them up, then gagged them so they couldn't shout. We then covered them with an old tent we had lying around, and took off down the street to watch Superman. Luckily my mother found them some 5 minutes after we left, and you can imagine my surprise when a couple more minutes found her walking in the door of my cousin's house, right in the middle of the Superman show. One of the rare spanking's I ever got, and as I've said I can count them all on one hand, was that day. She martched me home, and gave me a swat on the butt with her bare hand for just about every step of the way down the street. Needless to say I never did anything even remotely like that again, but can you imagine how dangerous it was? The little ones could have smothered to death, they could have choked on the rags we put over their mouth, anything could have happened, and I can honestly say that putting me in time out just wouldn't have had the same effect. What I'm saying is that no matter how good a parent you are, and my mother was as good as they come, sometimes a child needs more that just a talking to. Sometimes the things we do, no matter how innocent we think they are, can have serious consequences. I had no idea how dangerous what we did was, but had something happened to one of the little kids, I'm pretty sure my entire life would have been much different than it turned out to be. I'd much rather that I, or my child, or your child, got a spanking in a case such as this, than for them to get a talking to and then sometime later do something just as stupid and the results turn into a disaster. A spanking hurts for a few minutes, if one of the kids had died, that would have been forever.
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JoElle
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:40 pm

People, adult or child, are individuals.

No two are the same. They don't think alike or learn alike. They shouldn't be disciplined alike.

From working in child care, caring for my baby sisters, nieces, nephews, and grandchildren and from raising my own son ... and from my own experience as a child growing up with different forms of parenting (some good, some not) .... I've found that not all children respond to the same types of discipline.

Time outs work for some kids. Time outs don't work for some kids. A swat on the bottom works for some kids. It doesn't work for others. Restriction of privileges works for some. Doesn't work for others. Children, even from the same families, can be naturally very different.

Why spank a child that will respond to a firm 'no'?

The important thing is to be consistent and follow through on discipline. The severity of the wrong behavior is also important factor.

I think we all agree that disobedience and wrong behavior requires discipline. I think we all agree that there is a difference between abuse and discipline.

Due to our personal experiences growing up - and as parents - it is natural that we would each have our own views on what type(s) of discipline should be used.

I am not surprised at the varied viewpoints.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 11:17 pm

I think our experiences as children play a major role on how we deal with similar situations as adults. As JoElle said, no two situations are the same. I could tell stories of what happened to me and how I dealt with my kids, but none of them would be justification to establish them as a proper response. As Don mentioned, danger plays a role. If wacking a kid will save a life, it seems justified. Some kids learn faster than others and a word may work while others need a stronger response to get their attention. Viewing a situation from the outside and/or from hindsight is often flawed. The best time to do the correcting is when the incident happens - not hours later.

Pampering is not discipline. Punishment should be appropriate for the offense. Was it a first offense or is it a repeat pattern? If repeat, more drastic means are needed to stop it. Even with a first offense, if it endangered anyone, stringent measures must be applied to insure that it is not repeated What those measures are cannot be pre-determined. Second-hand information about an offense and making a determination that it was too soft or too harsh, is not enough to form good judgement.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 4:01 am

We all seem to hold strong opinions on the subject of discipline, and none of us is likely to change the opinion of another.

It seems to me that we (including me) have gotten sidetracked.

In Joe's OP, we saw that a child committed suicide. That's the tragedy, the loss of that life.

There were many factors involved, but the most significant, it seems to me, is the degree of homophobia that still exists.

Here we are, unable, it seems, to accept a few differences of opinion.

What is it about being different, or even seeing things from a different perspective, that brings our our antagonism?

Why can't we accept difference?

Ann
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 5:43 am

There are gender differences associated with beliefs about corporal punishment, wars, fighting, etc. The female side is generally a nurturing view, a view of protection. It is a view of empathy, actually feeling the pain administered. The male view is one of building character, that pain leads to strength.

My belief is that the testosterone view (which can be taken by men or women) is an ancient view, one that applies to the "survival of the fittest" mentality of our ancestors more closely related to the lives of animals.

The more evolved view is one of protection and support. It is a belief in the special nature of the human body, not a being to be beaten or physically harmed. It is a belief in the role that the psyche plays in remembering bodily harm and repeating it through the generations and letting it out sideways, depending on its severity or the damage to the psyche of the recipient even when it appears a simple and non-harmful whack.

I only remember my mom switching my legs when I went to the railroad tracks to collect chalk from the engineers. Those whacks gave me mental permission to strike my son to keep him out of the street and out of the fish pond.

My mother screamed at me and it hurt. I swore I would never scream at my children. When I had three teenagers on the sailboat and the two who were supposed to be home schooled were behaving in insubordinate ways, I heard my mother's voice scream at them in frustration.

Today, I believe that an adult who strikes children or abuses them verbally reflects what their psyche gave them permission to do from their own upbringing. We forgive our parents by carrying their punishment methods into our own experience as adults.

Respect for human beings, small ones or large ones, starts with our own experience with acceptance. Those who are hateful to people of different religions, lifestyles, skin colors, origins, sexual orientation or anything else "different" in the eye of the person filled with hate, is something they learned in their youth, in their community, in their sadly lacking education. Bullying is the external representation of a weakness inside the bully, a fear of differences, a need for power: the same need for power experienced by adults who strike and yell at children because they cannot control those children in any other way.

Bullying is an expression of powerlessness. The cure is a society of tolerance, love and acceptance, a safe community where violent behavior is not the norm and not taught to youth as acceptable punishment. Unfortunately, we are always trying to fix the resultant mutation, in this case the bully. We say "do not allow bullying; punish those who bully; stop it." Yet, bullying has always been among us. It just has a new face, a new reason to hate. Until hating differences among all of us is recognized as wasteful and harmful to our own psyche, fixing bullying will not happen. We have become a fear-ridden society and push our fears into hating differences. Our children reflect us.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 6:01 am

Well said, DK

Ann
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 6:54 am


Where does hitting stop? I cannot condone striking a child anymore than striking a lawbreaker.
Suppose you were to be tired driving and run a red light? Should a cop stop you and hit you? You are dangerous.after all, you might have killed someone.

I think not. A ticket some advice to rest and have coffee is far more approprate.

My brother was a child where hitting him built his will, They would do it more. They should have sought help.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 7:07 am

I agree Alice. Generally those who favor corporal punishment seem to think the person administering the punishment uses discretion, that the punishment is just right for the offense and not so bad it kills the spirit and breaks the child.

We are all individuals with our own experiences and they color how we behave, our level of tolerance for misbehavior, our frustration limits, our own self control in trying circumstances.

I am sorry for every whack I gave that precious little boy with the sweet smile and blond curls. There were probably a total of ten counting the one at 16 when he swore at me and I slapped his face. Today, I would fill in the fish pond and fence the yard until he was old enough to choose staying out of ponds and away from streets. I might still slap the 16 year old who swore at me; but it would be wrong. It was purely a reflex action. It certainly didn't correct his language any. I didn't feel any better either.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 7:34 am

I'll bet if you were tired and ran a redlight and killed a 6 year old child, you would much rather a policeman had stopped you before it happened, even if he slapped you silly for being so stupid.

Alice, are you saying that you prefer that someone gets killed rather than someone else getting stopped and spanked??

DK, I understand that all people do not administer punishment equally, and some of them don't administer it fairly. What I'm saying is that I think corporal punishment works better for most children, not all, but most, than just talking to them or taking something away. Many children will realize that while talking and taking may bother them a bit, it's not enough of a deterrent for them to stop doing whatever it is they want to do. With many children some physical punishment absolutely is necessary.

I think part of the problem is that most parents aren't anywhere near objective enough about what their own children are capable of. People seem to think their kids can't do terrible things, when the fact is that we never know which kids are cabable of what. How many times have we heard, "They seemed like such good kids." Or "They were raised right, never abused, and I don't see how they could shoot 22 classmates to death, run over 3 with a truck, and eat the hearts of all of the cheerleaders." Whether we want to think so or not, good kids sometimes do bad things. Why do you suppose a bully will almost always stop picking on other kids when someone kicks his ass for him? It's because he now understands that if he hurts someone else, he's going to feel a bit of pain himself, and it is knowing that they may experience that bit of pain that will almost always make a child think twice before hurting another person.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 7:49 am

E. Don,

Peace! In your case, since you are so sold on it, CP is the only thing that will work on you. lol!
Over and out--I am going to Physical therapy.


Last edited by alice on Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 8:35 am

DK, I understand what you're saying and for the most part agree, however I also agree with Don's views. It is true that we reflect our own upbringing in how we treat our kids. At the same time, it is not the same. I find that the discipline I gave to my kids was a bit different, however it was done out of love.
My grandfather was very stern. He had only to raise his finger and that was enough. DK mentioned striking her son when he cursed her. I find nothing wrong with that. My son talked back to his mother in front of his grandmother. I slapped his face and told him never again to talk back to his mother, and he didn't. My son grew quite large and wrestled. I think he decided it was time to test his father and not take any punishment and challenged me. That was his mistake, and he never tried it again. As long as my kids lived in my house and I supported them, they came under my rule. That is true to this day.
My father-in-law never corrected his kids, according to my wife. Discipline was left to her mother. He told someone that he wanted his kids to like him and therefore never wanted to do anything that they would not like him. As it turned out, the kids loved their mother dearly and had no respect for their father.
When I visit my grandchildren, I find that there is too much talk with threats that never materialize, and they know it. On my last visit, my 6 year-old grandson refused to obey. I smacked his bottom lightly. He was heartbroken that Opa would do that. He cried and later hugged me and I him. Since that time, when Opa says something, he obeys. Respect is more important than being liked. My kids express their love for me despite getting wacked when they were kids. My daughter told me that she appreciated how stern I was with her. She said that is showed that I cared.

I don't think we can determine what is the right or wrong way to handle kids. Personalities are different as well as the environment where one lives. Doing what one thinks is right, with love, can't be all wrong.

In my view, a wack on the rump is more effective than screaming at a child.
The point is that you don't threaten punishment unless you are prepared to do what you say. Kids learn fast. They know what they can and cannot get away with. That is true in the home and in school. Rules should be fair, but enforced. If they are not to be enforced, why have a rules?

I don't expect or care if anyone agrees or disagrees with what I have written. My views are my own. How I elect to discipline my kids or grandkids is no body's business. When the kids are on their own, they can live their lives the way they wish. I don't have to like what they do to love them. When they ask my advice, I give it honestly. I'm not trying to get them to like me, but I do hope they will continue to respect me.
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 8:45 am

I think everyone here has valid points, especially based on their life experiences.

But human beings, both child and adult, are much too complex for one form of discipline to work or not work on everyone.

The human psyche is just much more than that. Not all abused children become abusers. Not all spoiled children become incapable and lazy adults. And not all children, raised by nurturing parents who disciplined without abuse, turn out well.

Way too many other things factor in.

The dangerous criminals in our prisons (and those wandering free) do not all come from the exact same backgrounds of parenting.

And not all of the well adjusted, contributing members of society came from the same parental backgrounds (we can see that by the comments of our forum members).
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 8:50 am

10/20/2011


When I was a kid my mother had a certain look and you
knew what that look meant , I called it the German look !
I remember when I worked in a gallery here downtown I
had two ladies who were getting on my nerves, I gave them
the look, one said to other: " Did you see the look he gave us !
if looks could kill we would be dead !" I guess I inherited my
Mother's German look !

Cheers..Joe
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 9:07 am

Abe, I respect you and like you. People do not have to agree on everything to be friends. Differences are a good thing. We expand our perspectives by recognizing difference.

A couple of things struck me:

"too much talk with threats that never materialize"
I agree with you completely. When a limit is set but not enforced, the child learns nothing other than that no one is in control. A child needs to know that the adults who care for him are in control, because she is aware that she is not ready to take that particular responsibility on.

The enforcement of a limit needs to be in line with the violation, and needs to involve something that the child will remember. Taking away a treasured privilege for a specified amount of time is something he will remember. He will also remember the swat, but he will also learn that violence is an OK way to solve a problem.

"A whack on the rump is more effective than screaming at a child."
I agree with you there, too. Screaming is a far more harmful form of violence than a light swat.

A firm, but compassionate, "What is the rule concerning...? [quietly insist on an answer] What did you just do? [the child needs to voice the choice she made in breaking the rule] You clearly realize that you have stepped over the line; You need to bring me your stack of comic books, now," is not the same as screaming. And the books, of course, need to be brought. If not, the penalty increases. As you said, "Rules should be fair, but enforced. If they are not to be enforced, why have a rules?"

This is not about taking an easy way out or ignoring parental responsibility. It is time consuming, and involves an awareness of the child's level of development, which can only come from getting to know each as an individual.

I just think that the enforcement can come from different approaches.

The child should learn something from the incident.

What do they learn from a violent act, whether verbal or physical, beyond violence is a way to maintain control? Will they follow the rule next time out of a sense of responsibility or out of fear?

Losing privileges, especially when combined with accepting responsibility, teaches a child that it is better to use self-control.

Just my perceptions.

Ann



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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 11:57 am

Ann, I don't disagree with what you said. I think most of us are on the same page, we just have a different way of expressing our feelings. Love is the key. When something is done with love, even if it appears harsh to an outsider, the child knows the truth.
We talked recently about capital punishment. I'm against it, yet I realize that some statements I've made may appear contradictory. Killing in self-defense is not the same as revenge killing. At least that's my view.

I'm also against war, yet I would defend my land against an invasion. When we invaded Iraq, the Iraqi citizens took arms to defend their country. I would have done the same thing. Politics are meaningless when it comes to self-preservation. Democracy cannot be forced on anyone and it's especially bad when the concept is not understood.

Communication, understanding, education are all important if we want to live together. Bullying, the subject of this thread, is not just about individuals, but also applies to countries.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 12:15 pm

Good post, Abe

Ann
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 12:53 pm

I don't think anyone here would abuse or neglect a child. People have strong feelings about child-rearing. I wish people would be required to take a child development class, before they had children.

I don't like it when children rule the roost and most certainly think they should obey immediately.

The issue of safety is very important also. Our daughter caught "what for" from me the day she and the neighbor boy conspired to drown her brother in our backyard pool. I am not sorry for that.
I must say I don't know what else I could have or would/should have done.

My criticism and distrust of the teachers arose from my school experiences of seeing what happened to other kids. One new kid, on his first day of school was beaten with a heavy stick. The teacher did not even so much as bother to say," Johnny sit in your seat."
Instead she picked up a heavy stove poker and whaled him. He must have been black and blue. She loved hitting kids and did not try to avoid it.

Another teacher informed me if I didn't learn my fractions, she would hit me with her strap.
I was very well-behaved, so she had to think awhile to come up with a reason.
I spoiled her fun, I learned my fractions--she didn't get to hit me.
There has to be a better way...

E. Don, There are exceptions to every rule, and I think your mother was justified in what she did. I am talking about the norm. When corporal punishment is the only method--something is wrong.



Last edited by alice on Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 2:56 pm

The night school where I taught my last eight years was designed to get drop-outs to return and finish.

We had a whole lot of single mothers, and several single fathers, as well as very young couples.

We provided a "night care" service. The parents could get elective credit for bringing their little ones. There was no fee. They just had to provide their own diapers, bottles, and food.

They were also required to attend parenting classes, which included learning how to practice control when they were frustrated and exhausted (which they were much of the time, since they worked during the day and came to school at night.}, as well as learning to set limits and consequences for their children's behavior, along with learning about things like nutrition and child development.

There were some complaints from the community, often from the more fundamentalist churches, who said we were encouraging immoral behavior.

Ann
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 3 EmptyThu Oct 20, 2011 4:42 pm

Ann,

I like what your program did. Encouraging immoral behaviour? I hardly think so--the kids need to be decently cared for.
I like the handling frustation bit too.
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