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 Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !

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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 18, 2011 8:05 pm

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."
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JoElle
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 18, 2011 11:04 pm

I googled the number of teenage suicides that happen every year. There was conflicting information but the numbers were an eye opener. It is sad, but there is more to the problem than bullies.

Perhaps everyone will tell me I am wrong. And maybe I am; I am not a mental health professional (my three pyschology classes do not equal a degree).

However I have a different take on this. I agree bullies are a problem. But as someone mentioned here, some bullies are bullies because they have problems of their own. Different bullies are bullies for different reasons. But bully behavior is not normal and those kids require attention.

There are different types of victims as well. And the way the handle the bullying makes a difference, although there again comes another variable. Different bullies will react differently to different responses to the bullying.

I don't think one can claim the bullies were responsible for Jaime's suicide. He already had problems and was suicidal. The bullying of course didn't help matters. But depressed people often commit suicide even if not bullied.

Many bullied teens survive high school without ever having a suicidal thought.

In reading Jaime's journals, he barely mentioned the bullies. He had friends. He wasn't alone. His parents clearly accepted and loved him. But he suffered depression, wanted a boyfriend, and wanted attention (he said he hated being ignored). I am not denying the bullying, but it seems more was going on and the other issues were bigger factors.

It seems impossible to figure out why people are the way the are. Why teenagers are the way they are. People are complicated and there are so many variables.

It is wrong to bully. But it also seems easy to point to bullies when there is a suicide when perhaps there were other reasons for the person taking their own life.

Personally, I am all for pressing charges against kids who beat up kids. And I mean more than just scuffling. I am taking about uncalled for assault. Because it is, after all, assault.

I was teased and called names when I was a teenager. I was harassed on the school bus. On several occasions, as soon as I arrived home I had to cut gum out of my hair. But I never considered harming myself.

There is not a simple solution.

However, what I have learned ... in my own experience of raising a kid ... is to teach our children that the world does not revolve around school. School is only a small part of their life. School is NOT life. Teach our children to give back to the community and to be active in things outside of school. Let them volunteer as soon as they are old enough. Often young people, especially those in middle school and high school, get tunnel vision and think that school is the center of the universe. It isn't a healthy way to view the world.

Get them involved in activities that include interaction with people of all ages, not just their peers. Make them aware of how fortunate they are by helping those less fortunate. Find ways to help the poor, sick, or disabled. This will help them see their lives in a more balanced and realistic way. It wil put things in perspective for them.

Parents can do much to help their kids develop a healthy self esteem and real purpose ... and those are some of the best weapons for warding off bullies.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyTue Oct 18, 2011 11:55 pm

JoElle, good observations.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 1:56 am

Well said, JoElle!

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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:36 am

Yes, JoElle, you've made some very good points.

As far as the young man's depression is concerned, society itself needs to take a share of the responsibility. Even with accepting parents, being "different" is hard on a teenager, and if that difference isn't accepted, it becomes harder still.

Maybe, along with our statistics, we should look at how many of these increasing numbers of teen suicides have to do with being gay. Certainly, the bully factor increases, especially if the bully is projecting his or her own fears onto a scapegoat.

And whereever the young man's depression came from, His difference and lack of like companions had to contribute.

Ann
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RosenTrevithick
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 5:47 am

The focus in this discussion seems to be on the way we treat the bullies, when in fact I think out efforts might be just as well concentrated on the way we view the victims. The article suggests that homophobia was at the root of the bullying, therefore it is necessary to educate school children about homosexuality, so that they are more tolerant toward gay teens.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 6:32 am

What Rosen said.

Maggie
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JoElle
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 8:44 am

RosenTrevithick wrote:
The focus in this discussion seems to be on the way we treat the bullies, when in fact I think out efforts might be just as well concentrated on the way we view the victims. The article suggests that homophobia was at the root of the bullying, therefore it is necessary to educate school children about homosexuality, so that they are more tolerant toward gay teens.

Yes. Very good point.

Tolerance is an important thing to teach our children. Sadly though, many parents and teachers are not tolerant. How can they be expected to teach their kids and students this value?

Bullying is a two person problem. Bullies have a problem, that is why they behave this way. Victims need to learn how to not allow themselves to be bullied or be a victim.

Most bullied kids learn how to avoid or solve the problem and the bully loses interest.

But add depression and low self esteem to a person being bullied and it makes the situation worse.

Sadly this is a problem that has been around since Cain and Abel.

Parents of bullies need to find out what is wrong with their kids and do something about it.

Parents of victims need to give their child the tools to protect themselves.

And while I think schools should have consequences and enforce them while dealing with bullies, they are not the police ... and it is sad they've become disciplinarians ... they are supposed to be educators. And we wonder why education is failing.

Parents need to be parents. As I said in my last post. We need to give our kids the tools to be able to deal with the problems of the world. There are bullies in the adult world too.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 8:55 am

JoElle,


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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 8:58 am

10/19/2011


Jo Elle:

Very well said..... Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 973110



Cheers..Joe... Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 9:33 am

I agree JoElle, it gets back to good parenting.
Unfortunately, many do not become parents by choice and are unprepared for this huge responsibility.

Victims of any crime are largely ignored, and that is unjust. We hear much about crime and punishment, but what about victims and restitution?
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:05 am

Of all of you, I think Abe understands the issue best, and has the best answers. Actions have consequences, and those consequences that involve some amount of physical pain are lessons a child will not forget. Taking away a game or sitting them in time out sounds great, but it seems to be that the past 40 years or so should have shown you that they aren't all that effective.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:11 am

And guys, when I was in school we had a very simple way of dealing with a bully. One of us beat the hell out of him, and he stopped picking on other kids. If that happened today, the parents, with a lot of your permission, would be wanting to address the bully with a time out or some treatment, and send the kid who handled the issue to jail. A prime example of reversed priorities.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:40 am

Hi! E.Don,

Good to hear from you,
I do believe bullies should be stood up to.

A fellow student punching them out is fine with me.
I am against a teacher hitting them to teach them not to hit.
I consider that bullying behaviour.
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alice
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alice

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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:47 am

joefrank wrote:
10/18/2011


When I was growing up in the 1950's and early 1960's if I did
something my parent's didn't like, I had to stay in after school,
no going out, no going to the movies, that hurt. I was taught
to respect teachers ( Told: Their your parents from 9-3 , you
must respect them.) I think today's parents have to teach
their children right from wrong, if they do something wrong then
no computer, no movies, no going out. Then let them think about
what they did wrong and discuss it with them, let them know you
you are not equals, that who you hang out with is how people
look at you....

Cheers..Joe

It worked with Joe. Sounds like his parents knew what they were doing.

On a personal note--when my children quarreled, I did not hit them--merely separated them. In the lilving room there were two chairs. I would say, "you sit there and you there and no talking." They would gesture to each other then say, " Mom we will be friends." They are very good friends now too.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 10:56 am

E. Don Harpe wrote:
Of all of you, I think Abe understands the issue best, and has the best answers. Actions have consequences, and those consequences that involve some amount of physical pain are lessons a child will not forget. Taking away a game or sitting them in time out sounds great, but it seems to be that the past 40 years or so should have shown you that they aren't all that effective.

Different families; different experiences.

My son, David is now a professor of computer math and astrophysics at a university in NJ. When we get the chance, he and I talk about his childhood, and his subsequent understanding of natural consequences.

He, and his daughter, my granddaughter, Jaycie, now 2 1/2, have learned from them.
(and he, BTW, turned 40 in July.)

Just me and mine.

Ann
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 11:09 am

Wow, Ann! I remember before Jaycie was born and you told us you were about to become a grandmother. Doesn't time fly!

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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 11:59 am

From just home from the hospital
Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 BABYJAYCIE
to just last month
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 12:22 pm

She is so cute and happy--doesn't look like a bully either.
I seriously doubt she will become one either.

Children reared with kindness mirror kindness.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 2:34 pm

Sorry, guys, but I believe teachers should be allowed to use corporal punishment. I know for a fact that it didn't hurt any of us. It wouldn't hurt today's kids either, but it might teach them a few things that time out doesn't teach them.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:15 pm

Sorry, E.Don,

I do like you , but do quite disagree with you on this point.
I went to church schools where the teacher was the law.
They hit/beat kids with rubber hoses, belts, and heavy sticks.

As a result, I never gave permission for my kids to receive corporal punishment at school.

I always wrote ???--Call me.
I wish I had never spanked my kids at home and also wish I had never been spanked. I am a total ingrate in that regard. I think children can learn other/better ways. As an older person looking back I wish I could say " I was a perfect mother." it doesn't bother my kids it bothers me.

If you goof up at work should your boss hit you?
I think not.

Time outs are not the only options other than paddlings. They can write dictionary pages during recess etc.

Our daughter is working on her PHd and our son has a degree in Accounting. They were both mischevious children in school and probably would have dropped out if they had been spanked there.
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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:41 pm

Or they may have learned that there is more to consequences than a few minutes in time out, or a game taken away, or some additional pages to be copied.

Sorry, Alice, I just think you're wrong on this one. I've never seen a kid that a spanking at home or in school hurt.

Our teachers use wooden paddles, and I got only one paddling with it. That was enough for me to learn that there are things you just don't do. Time out and others methods just don't have the same effect.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:49 pm


I don't know how I can be wrong about what I saw--whatever....
We need not agree. Have a good day! lol!


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E. Don Harpe
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PostSubject: Re: Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life !   Bullying -there should be strict laws-young man loses life ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 19, 2011 4:53 pm

With all due respect, I'm not sure how you know what I have seen Alice. Maybe you're brother is a mess, but I'll stick with my statement that says I've never seen anyone hurt due to spanking at home or at school.
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alj
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I think the most important step is setting limits. Make sure they know what is OK and what is not. And, it's OK to change the limits under unusual circumstances, but make that clear, too, and don't be afraid to take responsibility for changing them:

I had a really bad day at work today, so I need some quiet time.

The hardest thing for me as a child was the lack of consistency. Some days a thing would be fine, the next day it would bring out a rage, maybe even a whap upside the head. And I always "made her do it," but I could never quite figure out how.

I spent a lot of my time feeling sad and depressed. I thought it was all my fault. I didn't really learn differently until I started studying childcare books as a young parent. Then I spent a few years feeling a lot of anger, mostly directed at my parents. Now, I am starting to "get" that they were acting out of their own childhood experiences, and simply didn't know any better.

So, as a parent myself, I learned to make the limits clear. Sometimes they would choose to overstep them, but they knew that some privileges would be withdrawn, for a specified amount of time.

The only problems we had in later years were about the divorce. Their dad and I didn't handle that well, if there is a good way. As far as child-rearing was concerned, while we were still together, we pretty much agreed on the limits, rewards, and consequences. At least they were not confused, and could learn to make sound decisions for themselves.

I certainly made a lot of mistakes along the way, but I know that when I followed the guidelines that I learned from my studies, I got it right often enough.

They all grew into people I like as much as I love.

Ann
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