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 Reincarnation

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Domenic Pappalardo
Abe F. March
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 4:33 pm

Well, if one believes in the trinity, one would have to believe in Jesus. Here is what Jesus said regarding your post;
John 17:3
"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and the one you sent forth."
If taking in knowledge of God means life, would not taking in knowledge of him mean death? It's very clear he wants us to know him...why would he make it a mystery? He does say he blinds those he does not want.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 5:45 pm

Domenic, I have been writing about my personal knowledge of God as I perceive God.  You asked a question, and I explained my perspective.  

If you prefer to see the Bible as literal fact, That's fine with me.  I am not trying to change your beliefs.   You have stated elsewhere that you are not trying to change mine.  If that is true, then why are you intent on trying to invalidate my point of view?

There is no point in continuing a discussion that is basically like comparing apples and oranges.  It cannot go anywhere.

You have a good day. Very Happy 
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 06, 2014 6:07 pm

alj wrote:
Domenic, I have been writing about my personal knowledge of God as I perceive God.  You asked a question, and I explained my perspective.  

If you prefer to see the Bible as literal fact, That's fine with me.  I am not trying to change your beliefs.   You have stated elsewhere that you are not trying to change mine.  If that is true, then why are you intent on trying to invalidate my point of view?

There is no point in continuing a discussion that is basically like comparing apples and oranges.  It cannot go anywhere.

You have a good day. Very Happy 

I am trying to change you views. You made statements about the Bible that are not true...I was just showing what the Bible says. They are not views I have made up.
All people are going to believe what they will. Which I consider a dangerous position to be in. If the bible is true it could mean life, or death.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Apr 07, 2014 12:06 am

Interesting comments.  I feel like I'm sitting in a room with two people debating the interpretation of clues.  Instead of clarification, the debate creates more questions that neither person to the debate can answer.
What is being debated? Is it:
The existence of God?
The form of God (Spirit or other?)
Is Jesus God?
Are God and Jesus one and the same?
 
Where does the subject of this thread: “Reincarnation” enter into the debate?
 
Religion and Politics are current subjects of discussion on FB.  Some would suggest that Jesus/God was not a Republican, based on actions by the Republicans.  Bringing religion into politics is the topping on the cake.  Are we ready to start a war on religions or religious philosophy?  Since most wars have been fought over religion, why not another war to see which side God will choose this time.  Hmmm.  I wonder where “Thou shalt not kill” fits into this scenario or doesn’t that apply to wars?  Perhaps there should first be a debate about the meaning of killing?
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 07, 2014 7:31 am

dkchristi wrote:
Well, we don't see electricity but we count on it to turn on lights.  We don't see wi-fi but count on it for our computers.  I'd have to read up on both to get any sort of explanation.  Then there's thunder and lightning, major magic.

We can see electricity. Thunder storms, jumping from wire to wire,,,etc  Look at the Northern Lights?
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 07, 2014 7:48 am

You can't see the wind, but you can feel and see the effects of the wind.  One does not need to see something to know it exists.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 07, 2014 10:05 am

If you asked a person with absolute faith to walk across burning coals and rely upon God to ensure that the soles of the feet did not burn, then scientific explanations about heat transference would be redundant. People who have complete faith don't seek scientific explanations. If they walked across hot coals in the belief that God would protect them, and the soles of their feet remained unharmed, they would be convinced that God had protected them. It would be a waste of time to try to convince them otherwise.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 8:39 am

Abe F. March wrote:
You can't see the wind, but you can feel and see the effects of the wind.  One does not need to see something to know it exists.

You are right Abe, I agree with you 10 billion percent. One does not need to see something to know it exist...the word here is GOD.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 9:24 am

Abe wrote:
Where does the subject of this thread: “Reincarnation” enter into the debate?

The discussion (debates have ordered procedures) shifted when somebody decided to reincarnate an old 2010 thread to suit his own purposes.

All else begins from there.

As you and Don have said, "faith" has to do with believing what cannot be proved scientifically - at least according to classical physics.

To require "proof" indicates a materialist perspective.


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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 9:37 am

For DK.

Your perspective follows that of the views of scientific materialism.  In that perspective, the brain (a material object) is the source of all our perceptions of metaphysical thoughts.  In other words, we crate God from our brain's attempts to reconcile whatever does no compute.

That is almost a necessary conclusion from the standpoint of classical physics.  It does not take into account the discoveries in the field of quantum physics, where scientists discovered the wave/particle problem: waves of energy coalesce into particles of matter only wen they are observed.

So we are all energy before we become matter, and energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be destroyed.  That would mean that the original energetic form of who we are still exists after the material form has perished.  One explanation is the concept of reincarnation.  Another is that there are several levels of "being," ad that we simply move into a different level  The particular material form that we held is gone, but our energetic essence remains.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 9:43 am

Shelagh, your response reminds me of the concept that we are what we believe we are. And that means we each create the "reality" that we live in according to our beliefs about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 11:05 am

Since energy never dies, we live on.  We don't know in what form or if there is a form.  Since we came from energy without form, it seems logical that we could come back again in some form.  (reincarnation).  Imagine the energy of all those that have lived before us.  Have they returned?  Are they with us in some form.  Perhaps the pets that we love were once human. 
I believe that the unknowns will some day be revealed, but when we know it, we won't exist in our present form. 
I was watching Star Trek last night and see so many possibilities in our future.  Energizing and being transported to another place is not unreasonable. 
I was a child when the first TV came into being.  It was a marvel. How could a picture be transported through air and appear on our set?  We may not know the mechanics, but nothing is impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 11:37 am

What people believe means nothing unless they can prove what they believe is true. A car is made of metal, but if I melt the metal, it is no longer a car. Sure the atoms, are still atoms, but you can’t drive a hunk of metal.
Many believe in different hereafter’s. Without proof, these are just fairy tails. Here is a truth:
Many things in the Bible can not be proven. Many people take the Bible on faith without proof. When things get to a point of, "Give up your faith, or die," they will give up their belief in God, because they have no proof. God know this, so he has given people something they can trust, Bible Prophesies. There are many in the Bible, and they have all come true, except the few left about the future. These can be dated to before the events. Here is another truth; God says he blinds the eyes of the unbelievers. In other words, he will not let these understand, or believe in what the Bible says.
Some members on this forum think I am trying to change what they believe, or defending what I believe…neither is true. I do not have to defend Gods word, nor can people be talked, shoved, or whatever into believing the Bible.
People group together with others who believe about the same as they do…numbers do not make a truth.
I have stated many time, "All religions are false." If you judge the Bible on what religions say, you will not believe the Bible. I believe in only what I can prove. I do not join with those in religious groups, if the are a part of a religion. I do not put aside what I can prove just to be friends with those who do not believe.
It is a true statement, "When Rome was a world power, all roads lead to Rome." As to all roads leading to God, only one narrow roads leads to life.
There are many good people on this forum, if that were not true, I would not be here. What you believe, you believe. A few are making an effort to turn people away from truth. I do not count these as friends or foes.
The debates of what comes after life, is nothing but spitting in the wind, unless what you say can be proven. I have prophesies that have proven true, thus the un-proven things can be trusted. There is also many things of science that is stated in the Bible before science discovered them. In our time, enamel has been discovered to be skin. One scripture in the bible already knew this…"He escaped by the skin of his teeth." Lost cities are found with the use of the Bible. The list just goes on, and on.
Whatever you believe is the path you are on. If I am wrong, and you are right, nothing more will happen to me, that will happen to you. But, If I am right, and you are wrong, you will be in a big world of hurt.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 1:48 pm

Right and wrong, truth and untruth, does it really matter? We bring nothing into the world and take nothing out. A single egg fused with a single sperm produces a new individual that comes into the world without so much as an identity (which is provided by the parents).

According to the bible, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. His body looked as it did before death. My grandmother died in her mid-thirties. My dad will be 89 this weekend. When he dies, what will he see when he meets up with his mother? Will an old man meet up with a young woman? If age doesn't matter because it's only the spirit that remains, where's the comfort in meeting up in the afterlife? My dad's memories of his mother are faded with age; he remembers events from his childhood very clearly, but he remembers very little about his mother as a person. He grew up without much contact with his father. On the occasions he saw his father at local events, his father would watch him from a distance, but my dad would run away and hide from him. In the afterlife, are these two people, his mother and his father, going to wait for him to join them? What will he do if and when the spirits meet up? It's all too daft to contemplate.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 6:01 pm

Shelagh wrote:
Right and wrong, truth and untruth, does it really matter? We bring nothing into the world and take nothing out. A single egg fused with a single sperm produces a new individual that comes into the world without so much as an identity (which is provided by the parents).

According to the bible, Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. His body looked as it did before death. My grandmother died in her mid-thirties. My dad will be 89 this weekend. When he dies, what will he see when he meets up with his mother? Will an old man meet up with a young woman? If age doesn't matter because it's only the spirit that remains, where's the comfort in meeting up in the afterlife? My dad's memories of his mother are faded with age; he remembers events from his childhood very clearly, but he remembers very little about his mother as a person. He grew up without much contact with his father. On the occasions he saw his father at local events, his father would watch him from a distance, but my dad would run away and hide from him. In the afterlife, are these two people, his mother and his father, going to wait for him to join them? What will he do if and when the spirits meet up? It's all too daft to contemplate.


I like your thoughts Shelagh. I believe in the Bible Because it can be proven to be Gods word. Religions do not teach the truth. Man was designed to live forever. Anything God does works...his plans never fail. Man was designed to be the
cartakers of this universe for God. Since we are created in Gods image, and can reproduce, the angels became jealous. They envy us.
What Adam, and Eve did, which I won’t go into here, passed death to all humans. Jesus did something when he died, (again, I will not go into that here,) and gave us the promise of life, as perfect humans on this earth. Those in the grave are asleep. They have no thoughts. In that condition there is no time to them. From the moment they died, to when Jesus resurrects them, will seem like a second. They will not have their old rotted bodies…they will have new perfect bodies. The human family will live under a heavenly Government for 1,000 years. Within that time they will gain control of their whole mind. At the end of the 1,000 years, the earth, and the human family will be perfect, as it was when Adam, and Eve were created. In that condition, Satan will be let lose, and the human family will be given a final test, to follow Gods laws, or to follow Satan. Those who follow Satan will be cast with him into oblivion. Those who follow Gods laws, will no longer need Jesus between the human family, and God.
You family members who have had problems, are no different than any human who has lived. It will all be worked out for the best for all.
Once people find out why things went as they did, it will be easy to forgive others. Wounds need to heal. The human family will need every day of those thousand years. After that, we will start moving out into space. All the stars you see, and can’t see, will someday be ready for humans. We will be the cartakers for all of it.
Will all people be resurrected? No. God looks at the heart. If a persons heart shows, on a perfect earth, with a perfect body, and the use of their whole brain, "Will they serve God as he wants?" If that is a yes…they will be there alive forever, as humans caring for Gods garden. That is what we were designed for. No ageing, sickness, crime, laboring to eat, pain in giving birth. No locks on doors. Animals will no longer fear man. A Lyon will be as tame as a house cat. There will be no danger for the human family.
God commanded the angels to serve man after he created Adam…many rebelled. That is how Satan put his rebellion into effect. He has lost, and it is just a matter of time now.
If at some future date you would like to know what happened in the garden…I will show you what the Bible says…they did not eat a fruit…that is a lie religions tell, because religions are not from God.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 10:37 pm

I admire your faith, Dom. You rely on one source for your beliefs - I don't.  As has been discussed often, the Bible (you call God's word) was written by man.  Perhaps man was inspired to write what he did including what he felt was politically important.  There is much truth in the Bible and serves as a guide. Predictions (prophesies) do come true.  Believing they will happen makes them happen.  Our minds are capable of much more than we can comprehend.
I rather rely on my gut - the inspiration that comes to me.  Whether what I receive is God inspired is unknown, however I go with my feelings.  Trying to analyze these feelings is futile. 
If we accept the Bible as written, then we are all Gods.  We create our own reality and can change it.      
As for Shelagh's thoughts about relatives meeting again in the afterlife, we can only imagine what happens.  In my short story I talk about my dream about the afterlife.  I won't discuss that here.  I just want to express my belief that our personal experiences, past, present or in dreamland combine to give us direction for our lives.  Our beliefs and faith are personal. 
As people grow older, more thought is given to death.  What will happen when the body ceases to function?   They seek comfort and many find that comfort in the Bible.  Some believe that death if final and there is nothing after that. 
Man has been seeking answers to these questions for centuries and they continue to ask the same questions.  Religion, regardless of doctrine, tries to deal with these questions and provide answers.  Whatever brings comfort is accepted.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 08, 2014 11:47 pm

Associating with people who believe as we do is comforting.  Those who believe in the Bible gather together and enjoy discussing their beliefs and experiences.  My daughter, Christine is one person that I enjoy talking with.  We read the same books, i.e., Chopra Deepak a well as others.  When we find a book that “hits the spot” we share it.  Knowing that we are not alone with our thoughts is comforting.  It also triggers more questions and speculation.
 
I find it curious that people will call on God when they are in trouble. When people are in trouble, like soldiers in danger of losing their lives, they ask God for help/protection.   If they survive, many will give credit to God.  Then there are those like General Lee who prayed to God before each battle saying” Thy Will Be Done”.  Does that mean that if they won it was God’s Will and if they lost, it was God’s WiIl?  In this case, whatever happens is the Will of God.  The Arabs say the same thing.  “The Will of Allah”.   Doris Day sang: “Whatever will be, will be.”  Seems to be the same scenario.
 
Healing is another faith thing.  The mind has the power to heal.  Belief/faith does the healing.
Even Christ said, “Your faith has made you whole.”  There are a number of Bible passages that make that statement.  We can heal ourselves if our faith is strong enough.  That I believe applies to other things in life.  If one truly believes something will happen, it will.   Believing in yourself is important.  You have the ability to do whatever you want.  As Napoleon Hill said, “What the mind of man can conceive and believe, he can achieve.” 
 
Associating with people of like minds can be a great tool in achieving one’s goals.  The support and energy produced with positive thinking is powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 2:56 am

"The support and energy produced with positive thinking is powerful."

Yes, Abe, and it doesn't matter what the source of positive thinking is; it can be God, religion, fear, belief, faith or all these things combined into a doctrine or way of life. For some, denying them the right to follow their religious beliefs can be as harmful to their health as a physical injury or sickness.

A thousand years, Domenic? Crumbs, that's short sighted. Most humans are around for less than a hundred years; they'll be dead for billions of years.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 6:08 am

For a long time, I didn't think much about an afterlife. It seemed to me that if people were good because they feared going to hell, or even if they were eager to get to Heaven, that maybe they were focused on the wrong things, that people ought to want to be good because it was the right thing to do. It made the world, or the neighborhood, a better place for evertbody. Perhaps, I thought, it would be better to act as though this life were all we had, so that we would make good use of it.

Now that I have reached an age that some could call a life expectancy, I sometimes do find myself wondering about what, if anything, comes next.

I have always been curious about possibilities of there being more to life than what seems to be real. Maybe that's why I chose to study literature. Books can take us into other worlds. If we can imagine these stories, might they not be real? At night, we dream. Is that dream world unreal?

One day my kids were watching MTV and the leader of a rock group was being interviewed, and he said that he had been an atheist until he learned about quantum physics. That made me so curious I just had to find out why he would say that. Shortly after, my rock star wannabe son left for college and discovered calculus, and changed his major from music to physics, and came home talking about such things as Chaos Theory and Mandelbrot sets, and, yes, quantum reality. And I had come upon Carl Jung and archetypes and the collective unconscious and synchronicity, and suddenly my perception of the world was changing. I've learned over time that it's not a change one can undo.

So, here I am, growing older and finding my focus turning in different directions, but I am still the person who has lived this life, and whose experiences have shaped the person I am today. And I look back and see that some of what I saw as the worst things have led me to some of the best times, and that bad and good are relative terms because one can lead into the other - like the yin/yang symbol, where each side contains the seed of the other.

I believe we all have a purpose, and that purpose involves, in one way or another, sharing what we have learned, and hearing the stories of others, so that we can have a broader picture of reality that is inclusive of all individuals and their perspectives.

When we connect to that collective unconscious that we all share, we can glean bits of information that open new doors and clarify our pathways.

Ultimate Reality will always be a mystery. There is far too much stuff than we can ever hope to incorporate, but we can share what we know, and learn what other have learned, and we can begin to intuit some of our answers based on all that, if our minds are open enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 6:17 am

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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 7:14 am

Most see death as an end to life as humans on earth. As the beginning of a different kind of life, or as a mystery? Christian religions teach, "The good will go to Heaven, and the not so good to some kind of hell. Still there are groups of people who believe the energy that makes up their human life will always be alive in some form of energy. There are eastern religions who teach at death people can go to a higher plane, or if they lived a bad life, a lower plane.
Egyptian leaders built a belief they could live on in an after life, and take all their wealth, and servants with them. There are those who believe death is the end of everything. Muslims believe they have found a short cut to a Heaven were they will receive all the things they have been denied in this life…just murder a non-Muslim. A few are wondering around wondering, "What the hell is going on?"
All of these have one thing in common…they can’t prove anything they believe. So what is a person to do? Is the answer to the mystery of death hidden under some rock in the desert, written in a forgotten language? Was the seed of mankind deposited here on earth by creatures from another world? Creatures who will return, and save us from ourselves?
Perhaps our life is not real, just a dream, wondering from one dream to the next…the Matrix.
Maybe our universe is just a spec in a drop of water in some giant world? The mystery of man will be solved by man when they learn to join together as one. Or maybe we are just a cartoon on the Sunday news paper?
Then there are those who believe all the above are the wonderings of people in a house of mirrors, not knowing the way out. I will tell you how to escape a house of mirrors…"Don’t look at the mirrors. Look at the floor. Watch were you put your feet.
Truth can be proven. If it can't be proven...if it can't be proven, would that mean you may be wrong?
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 7:23 am

It appears that you base your proof on the Bible, yet you can't prove the Bible.  Your belief is not proof.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 7:33 am

Abe F. March wrote:
It appears that you base your proof on the Bible, yet you can't prove the Bible.  Your belief is not proof.

That is not so Abe. I have, and can prove the Bible true. Please don't ask me to do so in a few statements on this thread. If you would like to spend a few months in a Bible study via email, I will be more than happy to give you the time. On the other hand, if all you want to carry to the end of life is your gut feeling, that is up to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 8:51 am

from Merriam-Webster.com"
prove - (v. transitive) to establish the existence, truth, or validity of (as by evidence or logic)

How do you prove that the Bible is literally true? Even you have said that it has been changed from its earlier forms. Even if you could produce those original "scrolls" you refer to, in the original language, you would still be showing us material objects. That they were inspired by God is an act of faith, and faith involves believing what cannot be proved.

If you have faith that these scrolls are the words of God, that's fine - for you. Believe it and act upon it. But do not expect others, who hold different beliefs, to be convinced that your perspective is the only true and valid one.

Is God merely matter? If God is a material being, how can he (or she, or it) be God?

We can prove the existence of matter. That is why classical science refuses to consider the concept of God, which, by definition, is more than matter - more than material substance - something meta-physical.

Not even quantum science can actually prove that God exists, only that the concept is viable.

A literal interpretation of a written work turns it into a report on the matter involved.

We approach an acceptance through faith by understanding that the words are symbols - metaphors for explaining an existence that is not material, and therefore, unexplainable.

What we believe becomes true for each of us because we create our versions of reality.

You are free to believe what you want to believe, and base your life on those beliefs.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Reincarnation   Reincarnation - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 09, 2014 10:20 am

alj,
You make claim:

"If you have faith that these scrolls are the words of God, that's fine - for you. Believe it and act upon it. But do not expect others, who hold different beliefs, to be convinced that your perspective is the only true and valid one."

"What we believe becomes true for each of us because we create our versions of reality."

First off, because I do not believe as you, does not mean I expect others to believe as I do, nor am I trying to change what you believe.

You claim to have the power to make your own reality...let me see you do it? If you can change your own reality, it would also change that of every human alive. What kind of a mess that would be if two, three, or four people had your claimed power?

You have shown many times...whatever is said about the Bible...you are the first to make an effort to turn others against it...If there is a God, he has taken note of you.
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