| | What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? | |
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+5dkchristi Shelagh alice Carol Troestler Malcolm 9 posters | |
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Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:36 am | |
| Luckily, I've been able to avoid the threads about whether PA is nasty or celestial. Unfortunately, now I have to ask a question.
A satisfied PA author from about 5 years ago suggested to my brother that PA did a good job with her book of poems and, perhaps, he might consider going to them rather than to Lulu.
I have no basis for comparing the two publishers since I've only used iUniverse and Lulu. I know there's been a controversy, but I don't know exactly what it is. Does anyone with PA experience have any suggestions about PA vs. Lulu?
Thanks,
Malcolm |
| | | Carol Troestler Five Star Member
Number of posts : 3827 Registration date : 2008-06-07 Age : 86 Location : Wisconsin
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:58 am | |
| I'd prefer PA after using both. I purchased books myself from both and PA cost me less money. However, my book with lulu, although only 48 pages, a story book, was not a normal size and also had illustrations. I supposedly could pick the price with Lulu, but they picked the price for me and it is quite costly for a 48 page book.
With Lulu I had trouble getting questions answered. Although, my experience with PA seems to have been better than others, they did answer questions more readily.
All are beautiful books, beautifully formatted.
However, since I know artists and formatters, next time I self-publish, which I will do with my Cabin Journals, (next year's family and friend's Christmas present,) I will try going directly to Lightning Source. (I do pay my family artists and formatters and would rather pay them than someone else.)
I do not believe any publisher is celestial. The problem with PA is expectations versus reality. Well, maybe that's the way it is.
Carol |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:48 am | |
| Thanks, Carol. My experiences with both iUniverse and Lulu were both good, but it's nice to have some PA advice to send along to my brother.
Malcolm |
| | | alice Five Star Member
Number of posts : 15672 Registration date : 2008-10-22 Age : 76 Location : Redmond, WA
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:34 am | |
| PA did a very good job for me. I can only speak for myself. |
| | | Shelagh Admin
Number of posts : 12662 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:05 am | |
| Hi Malcolm,
The ex-Prime Minister, Harold MacMillan, the son of a publisher (and grandson of a Scottish crofter), in the 1959 election, told the country, “You've never had it so good,” pointing to the full employment and substantial rise in real earnings of the 1950s. He was right, the early sixties were glorious years.
“You've never had it so good,” could also be said of PA authors up to 2008. Most authors realised how lucky they were and took full advantage of everything on offer: less than a year to see your book in print, two free copies, buy buttons on Amazon, no charges for editing.
I am not certain of just how many changes have taken place. The pressure groups have had little or no effect on PA's business practices. The company offers less to authors in 2009 than they did in 2005. The idea that PA could spend money marketing books is clearly a non-starter. Over the years, they have tried to cut costs. They are a business concern, not a charity.
I chose Lulu for my second novel, The Power of Persuasion, because the "bashers" said that being self-published was more acceptable than being published by PA. My experience would suggest otherwise.
For those with very little knowledge of publishing, I would suggest that they should try PA first. Whichever way they choose, they should not expect to sell many books. |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:29 am | |
| Thanks, Alice and Shelagh.
I hear decent things about PA and have always wondered what so many people were griping about. Maybe the company's popularity put them in more gun sights than some of the others.
Malcolm |
| | | alice Five Star Member
Number of posts : 15672 Registration date : 2008-10-22 Age : 76 Location : Redmond, WA
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:33 am | |
| Some folks claim bookstore placement is impossible with a PA book.
My book is in a bookstore.
I did not put it there.
Absolute Write shut down because I asked a vociferous anti-PA crusader where I could get her book.
They told me to get it online.
I said I wanted to see it in a bookstore. Mine was there, where was hers?
Too funny! Lane loved that exchange. He came to the forum and found it closed and knew I had caused it.
Lane and I had a great time terroziing the AW folks. We made a great team.
We were finally thrust off.
Last edited by Alice on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | alice Five Star Member
Number of posts : 15672 Registration date : 2008-10-22 Age : 76 Location : Redmond, WA
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:06 pm | |
| - Malcolm wrote:
- Thanks, Alice and Shelagh.
I hear decent things about PA and have always wondered what so many people were griping about. Maybe the company's popularity put them in more gun sights than some of the others.
Malcolm You have hit the nail right on the head. Every author that signs with PA is a loss to Lu Lu and other such outfits. Some complain about their lousy books--who wrote them? PA cannot afford to edit, publish and market. As Shelagh said, "They are a business." Errors in a book are the authors responsibility. |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:26 pm | |
| It sounds like PA is getting a bad rap that could just as easily be applied to any self-publishing company.
Malcolm |
| | | Shelagh Admin
Number of posts : 12662 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:09 pm | |
| That would be true but for the fact that the author is not, in fact, self-publishing. Authors do not need to know anything at all about book layout and book covers. All that is required initially is a word document in Times New Roman font with correct margins. PA's editors can load the document into desk-top publishing sofware and quickly produce a pdf file. This is sent to the author to be proof read and any typos, mistakes, grammatical errors can be corrected before the file is sent upstairs to cover art. When the cover is ready, it is sent out for approval. Once approved, the book is made available on the PA website and in six-eight weeks starts to show up on all the online stores.
After signing a contract, authors are asked to fill in a questionnaire to help with the marketing of the book. From first submitting the manuscript to seeing the finished book, the whole process is exactly the same as it would be by any other publisher. The time spent with an editor is considerably less and no changes will be suggested by the editors. The published book is more or less exactly the same as the submitted manuscript with an extra chance to make corrections before going to print.
One of the biggest complaints against PA is lack of proper editing. This is a spurious argument because editors of mainstream publishers will not accept manuscripts littered with errors. The suggestions they make are to improve the commercial content of the manuscript and not to eliminate errors. Authors are asked to proof read because these commercial editors make mistakes when they change the content. It is then up to the author to spot the editors' mistakes! The process takes much longer and many changes may occur before the book finally goes to press.
All PA authors enjoy the process of being published -- the complaints arise when the authors realise, for the first time, that their books are not going to sell in the quantities they thought they were. They end up on the AW forum crying their eyes out. They behave in a most unprofessional manner while claiming that PA are unprofessional. They don't see the irony. |
| | | dkchristi Five Star Member
Number of posts : 8594 Registration date : 2008-12-29 Location : Florida
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:39 pm | |
| I was one of the honeymooners who had a great experience with PA (except for book price) until about 2008. Their contract changed drastically. My biggest concern these days is the lack of respect as soon as the word "Publish America" is mentioned in a book store, to another publisher, in an online forum, etc. Because PA did publish a slew of books full of errors (no manuscript should have been submitted so full of errors, and PA only did a cursory edit, probably with software) and has a return and discount policy with book stores that is less than compelling, I would not publish with them again. I will admit, I did receive a contract from them for a little book that I didn't think had any market value, just something I wanted personally. When I asked questions about the contract, they cancelled it (after already accepting my book). That didn't leave a very good feeling, either. I think a lot of the trouble over PA came from green authors with high expectations that were beyond the business plan of PA. The disappointed ones were very vocal and the vocalizing caught on as the crucible for everyone's publishing angst; bash PA and feel better about the whole process. I don't know anything about Lulu or iUniverse. If I could figure out how to format, I'd simply use Createspace at Amazon.com. That gets as much as any vanity publisher will provide, and it's free. You set the price for the book also. |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:09 pm | |
| Thanks, Shelagh and DK.
Maybe there was something misleading about the PA site or else they simply had a higher volume of authors coming to them, for iUniverse doesn't edit either unless you buy a more expensive package.
Lulu is a problem for authors who don't know what standard book layout looks like, so I see books coming out with messed up front matter, etc.
Malcolm |
| | | alj Five Star Member
Number of posts : 9633 Registration date : 2008-12-05 Age : 80 Location : San Antonio
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:12 pm | |
| Malcolm, you have a PM.
Ann |
| | | Abe F. March Five Star Member
Number of posts : 10768 Registration date : 2008-01-26 Age : 85 Location : Germany
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:24 am | |
| To add my two cents to the PA controversy is to say that the problems began when the author expected something not promised. The second thing was the lack of a good editing program expected by most authors. Getting the first book on the market was important for the author and they got that. To go back a second time means acceptance in all areas. Now that one is published, the second time around one should do it with eyes wide open. Crying about what should have been accomplishes nothing except a release of frustration. |
| | | LC Five Star Member
Number of posts : 5044 Registration date : 2009-03-28
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:45 am | |
| - Malcolm wrote:
- I hear decent things about PA and have always wondered what so many people were griping about. Maybe the company's popularity put them in more gun sights than some of the others. Malcolm
As an outsider looking in, these are my observations: The complaints chiefly eminate from one place: AW. It's where a very loud handful of dissatisfied customers congregate, egged on by several who are there largely for personal ego-stroking, and by not-very-bright hangers-on -the ones who "had their fingers on the button" and think this makes PA relevant to them. The putative reason for being there is to "help authors," but posts that suggest otherwise are made (more about that in a bit). First, let's look at the dissatisfied customers. They have some reason for this. PA's website info is terribly misleading. They're NOT a mainstream press, and their discussion of how all authors are supposed to do their own marketing, first locally, and then nationally, is pure bullshit. Not that they're the only ones who do this -Tate does, too- but because PA's services are free, they attract lots of customers. Which brings us to ...their customers. Present company excepted, their customers are just not very bright! It shows in the posts on the PAMB, and it shows on the posts at the AW PAMB. So when you combine misleading info with not-very-bright customers, you get problems. PA handles those problems in a manner best for them (which is not a customer-service friendly way). Back to AW. Look at this recent post made by Jim McDonald: - Quote :
- Unfortunately, while writers love their own books and are convinced that anyone who reads them must love them as much as they do (and I confess, that's exactly how I feel about my own books), writers reading other authors works become ... readers. Their reaction to lousy books is the exact same as yours or mine: "OMG, this stinks!" After reading fifteen ... or twenty ... or fifty ... or ninety-nine ... books that stink on ice, and paying twenty, thirty, or more bucks for each of them, the writer may just come to a conclusion about the publisher.
Could this man be any more fork-tongued? On one side of his mouth he laments PA's poor "victims" and exhorts them to "write a better book." On the other side he acknowledges that their stuff stinks. So which is it, Uncle? Are they talented writers unsuspectingly caught in PA's net, or are they smelly fish on ice? You can't have it both ways, but Uncle Jim sure tries. Then there's "Gillhoughly," who, in almost every post she makes, reminds people of her own (alleged) Great Successes. Every post reminds her sycophants that she's with Big Publishers, In Every Bookstore, blah de blah blah. Her own issues require this ego-stroking. Now look at this post from "Swordswoman": - Quote :
- But this one's really tragic. Alerted by the unusually articulate (and refreshingly literate) nature of her post... Have a look, read some of her stories, and see what I mean. She's talented. She's a real writer. She's one of us.
She acknowledges that most PA authors aren't articulate, while at the same time, she berates the company. So what does this woman WANT? For the PA authors to "get better?" For PA to not publish their work? For PA to publish their work and try to sell it? What?
They're all nuts there, seriously. It's a fascinating study in group-think, though. |
| | | Dick Stodghill Five Star Member
Number of posts : 3795 Registration date : 2008-05-04 Age : 98 Location : Akron, Ohio
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:25 am | |
| Nice summation, LC. There are some nice people there but a few real oafs as well. Being limited to one subject is a problem. The rest of the board is too large and unweildy for discussing other subjects with people who are interesting, or would be if the boring topic of PA could be ignored. |
| | | Carol Troestler Five Star Member
Number of posts : 3827 Registration date : 2008-06-07 Age : 86 Location : Wisconsin
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:46 am | |
| LC, good post. That's it. But I will disagree with the fact that the readers aren't too bright. I'm bright! I've read about 25 PA books. I made friends with authors on the PAMB and ordered their books. The ones by the authors here are excellent. Those recommended by the authors here have been excellent. I have ordered a few for reference, like one titled "I Was Captured by the Russians," about a man who was captured off a freighter out of Alaska that went into Russian territory in a storm, a true story. (It was written in a very convincing way. Why didn't we hear about this on the news you might wonder. I certainly did.) I think some people just have stories they want to put down on paper. I liked DK's remarks about having her experiences published so they didn't just disappear in a hurricane or fire. I've been thinking about that remark a lot. I read a few novels by PA writers, not those here, that were less than excellent, but I seldom read novels, so I'm a poor judge. Unless you mean the readers of the AW thread not being bright. (Just kidding.) Carol |
| | | Shelagh Admin
Number of posts : 12662 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:53 am | |
| "They're all nuts there, seriously."
Yes, they are, but they are the inmates so they don't see it.
|
| | | LC Five Star Member
Number of posts : 5044 Registration date : 2009-03-28
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:12 am | |
| - Carol Troestler wrote:
- But I will disagree with the fact that the readers aren't too bright.
No, I said PA's customers weren't real bright (and I excluded present company ). I call them customers because they are. PA is not a commercial press, it's a printer that makes a pdf file from a Word doc, designs a cover, prints it up and sells it to the submitter. Bright people can infer that from their website. Of course there are some bright, articulate people who use PA for their own reasons and it works for many of them. But they're not the ones crying at AW. The sad thing is that the AW PAMBers (and the "almost hit the button" ones) don't regard themselves as McDonald's stiink-on-ice writers. They're like, "Ha, ha, you made a funny!" when they should really be bending over, here comes another. |
| | | alice Five Star Member
Number of posts : 15672 Registration date : 2008-10-22 Age : 76 Location : Redmond, WA
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:19 am | |
| The AW Folks are the stupdist bunch of nuts in tthe world. Shelagh, Consider yourself privileged to be banned. I demanded to be thrown off. It finally happened.--it was not easy. I could have found a major publisher with far less difficulty. |
| | | Carol Troestler Five Star Member
Number of posts : 3827 Registration date : 2008-06-07 Age : 86 Location : Wisconsin
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:19 am | |
| I'm glad we cleared that up!
Carol |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:38 am | |
| LC,
Thanks for the summary. Perhaps many of the AW regulars needed support or therapy of some kind and just gravitated into one giant encounter group. Then, their angst became a cause with PA playing the role of the sock puppet.
Malcolm |
| | | Shelagh Admin
Number of posts : 12662 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:40 am | |
| ... or maybe they are just nuts. |
| | | Shelagh Admin
Number of posts : 12662 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:07 am | |
| Yes, Marie, you have greater experience than most PA authors but you haven't used Lulu. Dick has and Carol has and so have I. The question Malcolm asked is: "Does anyone with PA experience have any suggestions about PA vs. Lulu?" |
| | | Malcolm Five Star Member
Number of posts : 1504 Registration date : 2008-01-11 Location : Georgia
| Subject: Re: What's the basis of the Publish America controversy? Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:55 am | |
| As a practical matter: are the BUY BUTTONS on or off on Amazon for new PA books?
Malcolm |
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