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 Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!

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zadaconnaway
Carol Troestler
dkchristi
E. Don Harpe
Phil Whitley
alice
Shelagh
thehairymob
Abe F. March
Helen Wisocki
Dick Stodghill
A Ahad
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A Ahad
Five Star Member
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Number of posts : 1102
Registration date : 2008-03-25
Age : 55

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 20, 2009 7:55 am

Ann,
I'm curious as to whether your vote in fact got through? The last vote by anyone from this forum appears to have been made at 0414 this morning. You can check the log:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ahad%27s_Constant&action=history

And the latest post is a "Regretful Delete" by somone who likes the idea but feels it will not meet the WP:N standard.
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alj
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alj


Number of posts : 9633
Registration date : 2008-12-05
Age : 80
Location : San Antonio

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 20, 2009 8:17 am

Ahad,

It didn't appear. I'll look into it. I don't have the same user name there as I have here, though.

Ann
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http://www.annjoiner.com
Brenda Hill
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Brenda Hill


Number of posts : 1297
Registration date : 2008-02-16
Location : Southern CA

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 20, 2009 12:08 pm

Love your new avatar, Ann. What a beautiful baby. They usually look like wrinkled old men! Mine didn't, you understand, but of course mine were the exception. Very Happy
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http://www.brendahill.com
Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Why?   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 20, 2009 3:09 pm

As a Wikipedia editor and the first Regretful Delete, may I say that the discussion at Wikipedia is NOT a vote? It's a discussion. The Keeps and Deletes (protocol allows you one use only) are a summary of your view. What is important is the reasoning behind your decision. (You can Comment many times - but don't repeat the same thing over and over...) Simply adding a post saying Keep will do no good for your cause. In fact, the more that do it, the less weight gets placed on these posts. The deletion is being called for because the article does not fit with Wikipedia's standards of notability. Not Merriam-Webster's definition, nor Mrs Llewelyn at number 29's definition. If you really want to save the article, provide what we keep saying we need. Reliable outside sources. READ our comments rather than the summary Keep or Delete. We're TELLING you what the problem is. It's up to you to do your bit. If you're not sure how to add references to the article, add them to the discussion. If they're good sound ones, we'll add them for you.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptyFri Mar 20, 2009 11:34 pm

I think that Peridon made a valid point. Just by posting a "keep" without a reason doesn't give an editor much to go on. Is it a popularity contest or a basis for giving recognition to someone deserving?
In the case of Ahad, I think he is deserving. To validate that one must give a reason.
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Wiki vol
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 6:00 am

Wikipedia requires references to reliable, published, third party sources (WP:RS) for the information in its articles, and doesn't allow original research (WP:NOR) because it's a tertiary, not primary, source. If the required sources aren't given, the information gets deleted. (WP:V)

Think of a library: it's a place mainly for finding books to borrow or read there. It doesn't matter if twenty or thirty people bring hockey sticks and pucks because they want to play hockey in the library - that's not what libraries are for. In the same way having lots of people say the article should be kept on Wikipedia, despite it failing the reliable sources, verifiability, and no original research requirements doesn't matter, and is only making things worse for the hockey players/Ahad's constant fans.

(External links aren't working in this post, so to see the policies add the shortcuts in brackets after the "wiki/" address.)
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 7:51 am

When someone makes a new discovery, where is the reference?
What we do know is that jealousy exists even among scientists. How often has an inventor or someone making a discovery been scorned, ridiculed and/or ignored until many years later when they finally received acknowledgment? And often it was after they were dead.

What we have here is a person who made a discovery. If he had the credentials that others in this field have, his discovery wouldn't be questioned. Once a discovery is made and recognized, suddenly that person has credentials.

For Wikepedia to deny this discovery, they should first have to prove him wrong. Are there any experts out there who can disprove his discovery and theory?
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alj
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alj


Number of posts : 9633
Registration date : 2008-12-05
Age : 80
Location : San Antonio

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 11:42 am

OK, but I just googled string theory and even superstring theory and came up with fairly long and clearly acceptable articles. These, too, as my limited understanding tells me, are theories. So where does one draw the line between what theories are acceptable and what are not. Much of what is accepted today as common knowledge started out as theory that was often scoffed at in the beginning.

Isn't Wiki being a bit over-conscientious?

Ann
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http://www.annjoiner.com
Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 11:58 am

To clarify things a bit, Wikipedia wasn't proposing to delete on the grounds that his discovery was a load of rhubarb. (We do get quite a few hoax articles - some of them rather clever and hard to spot and others patent nonsense.) We do have a policy about Original Research. We're not Nature, Scientific American or New Scientist (the one I read every week). We're NOT there to publish scientific papers on new ideas. We cannot guarantee to provide scientific peer review for new work - and don't even try. (Same in non-scientific fields.) If something is referenced with sound reliable sources, OK - we then look again. We don't count blogs or forums or self published material as reliable sources. If the only things we can find are blogs, forums and self published (not to mention FaceBook, YahooAnswers and Twitter), we can't have the article. We're not there to publicise things or ideas. We record things that are considered notable (by Wikipedia's definition not any dictionary's definition) and supply sources for further investigation. If there are reliable (by our definition) sources, the article stands a good chance of survival. If they can't be found in time, try again later - when they are ready to be put in.
Sorry to be going on so much - it's just that a lot of people don't seem to have been reading our explanations, or seem to have been prefering their own version of what they think Wikipedia should be. It may change. It will change. It has changed. We work with the current version. You doubtless have rules here. We have rules there. I hope the two of us that have visited you have kept within your rules. Please let us know if we haven't.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 12:13 pm

Peridon,
your post indicates that you have an open mind. If you read my above post, you know my feelings on this matter. I also respect the fact that you have rules, for without them, there would be lots of rubbish published. People use Wikepedia for information about most any subject. Perhaps you could have a category for "unverified" where the claim can remain without being deleted. I'm specifically referring to Ahad. With time, he will have the verifications necessary to satisfy your requirements. To delete him would be similar to placing him on a blacklist. It would be derogatory and could be construed as a hoax, which it is not.
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alj
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alj


Number of posts : 9633
Registration date : 2008-12-05
Age : 80
Location : San Antonio

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 12:36 pm

What Abe said.

Ann
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http://www.annjoiner.com
Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 12:36 pm

My apologies for double posting - I was trying to go forward and back and to retrieve some typing while checking back (didn't work...).
To answer the latest posts. Marie Pacha has a very good point referring to the scientific community: "If I were Ahad, these are the people I would be
discussing my hypothesis with, and I would try and make them understand
my point of view." In my opinion, scientific review of his idea is needed. If there has been any, please let us know. I thank Marie for troubling to look for sources and to try to understand what this is about. Unfortunately, both references are forums. And that's all the sort of thing we seem to be finding. If that reference to p.50 of the Cambridge Encyclopaedia of Stars is to a mention of Ahad's idea, that will be one step to establishing notability. If it is there because information in the paper was derived from there, it won't be.
To alj, it's not the status as a hypothesis or theory that's the problem. (Scientific use of 'theory' is different from common use. In normal speech, a theory is a rough idea of how something might have happened. In Science, a theory is the next best thing to a law - but it's still subject to review and updating. Hypothesis is more the rough idea in that it's not always universally accepted but still seems to work. This is a simplification.) The problem for Wikipedia is the lack of reliable sources establishing notability. Rupert Sheldrake's ideas on formative causation are widely decried in Science - but they're notable at least because of the uproar they caused. Ahad's ideas haven't reached a sufficient level of note or notoriety so far as we can see. If references appear (to our desired standard), minds will change in the debate.
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Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 12:47 pm

To Abe - we don't have such a category, but I would suggest looking at (there's a good word!). The article can be preserved but not in the main body of the encyclopaedia. Registered editors have a user space where things other than spam and attack stuff can be kept and worked on. These are accessible to users of the encyclopaedia, but are marked as different by the UserName being part of the title. Have a look and see what you think. (Unlike the main body articles which are editable by anyone, User space is normally only edited with the consent of the User and other editing is considered vandalism. Exception is the UserTalk page, which is FOR people to leave messages on.)
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Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 1:07 pm

There should be a link in there... Ah, yes. Please copy and paste - I've had to remove the h**p bit to get this to be visible.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userfication
(I don't spend much time in forums - and none in chat rooms...)
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Phil Whitley
Four Star Member
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Phil Whitley


Number of posts : 907
Registration date : 2008-04-01
Age : 81
Location : Riverdale, GA

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 1:36 pm

Peridon, just to clarify... links do not work here for guests. You have to be a member for that. Keeps out the spammers!
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http://www.philwhitley.com
Peridon
Guest




Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 1:46 pm

Thought that might be it. I spend quite a bit of my Wikipedia time tagging spam and promotional junk for deletion....
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Enric Na
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 5:35 pm

Errr, if he posts the article in the userspace then it will probably be speedy deleted as "recreation of deleted content", criteria G4 in WP:CSD  Ahad should first submit his theory (actually, his hypothesis) to some journal or something to get it peer-reviewed and published.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 21, 2009 11:23 pm

I can't speak for Ahad, but I am impressed with the attention that the editors from Wikipedia are giving to Ahad's discovery.
They are providing hints and suggestions.
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Peridon
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 3:42 am

As I read the Userfication procedure, userfied material resulting from an AfD (Articles for Deletion) process wouldn't be deleted as re-creation, as it would have been put there by an admin. This is the point of Userfication, isn't it - to preserve something that is not regarded as appropriate for the main area, but which has potential to possibly become so.
Apologies if we appear to be talking at times in obscure jargon and alphabet soup. Wikipedia almost has an internal language of its own. Not hard to learn, though.
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thehairymob
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thehairymob


Number of posts : 890
Registration date : 2008-05-05
Age : 56
Location : Scotland

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 8:09 am

Abe F. March wrote:
I can't speak for Ahad, but I am impressed with the attention that the editors from Wikipedia are giving to Ahad's discovery.
They are providing hints and suggestions.

Here, here Abe.Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 613632
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http://www.billyyoungsbooks.co.uk
Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
Registration date : 2008-01-26
Age : 85
Location : Germany

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 9:40 am

From what I have learned, there is a number of publication sources that Wikipedia may not have checked.


Ahad's work has been published in reliable, third party sources, such as ''The Sky this Week'', the Bangladesh Astronomical Society
[http://www.bangastrosociety.org/link.htm] and the Journal of the
British Astronomical Association.

What is your response to that, Wikipedia?
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A Ahad
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Number of posts : 1102
Registration date : 2008-03-25
Age : 55

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 6:03 pm

The discussion was closed.


Last edited by A Ahad on Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:48 pm; edited 8 times in total
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Afinerosesheis
Three Star Member
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Number of posts : 130
Registration date : 2009-03-17
Location : Where Passions Lie

Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 6:19 pm

Although Ahad once enlightened me on his scientific theory, I am afraid all that science went right over my blonde head and kept on going.

I don't know much about sciency stuff, but I do know a bit about Ahad. I have found that he is a brilliant man, a talented author, and an astronomer with vision. I don't know the rules for the Wiklepedia site, but I think it would be in their best interest and in the interest of future scientific endeavors to give him a chance and include his theory into their pages.
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Abe
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 22, 2009 8:35 pm

Ahad,

Have you published (or submitted) your work on Ahad's constant in a peer-reviewed academic journal yet ? That would be the quickest way for it to come to the attention of the scientific community; and will also pave the way for its inclusion on wikipedia, where it can find an even wider lay audience.
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Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"!   Cast your votes for "Ahad's constant"! - Page 2 Empty

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