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 Has Isreal gone too far?

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Dick Stodghill
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 11:47 am

A Stodghill Says So blog:

The Israelis are losing friends, losing the sympathy of millions of people around the world. In the eyes of those of us who have supported the nation since its founding after World War II, that is most unfortunate.
But the slaughter of children in the Gaza Strip has gone too far. They are in a confined area with nowhere to go, nowhere to hide. Some of the incidents during the Israeli offensive have been sickening.
Decent men, for example, do not use air strikes or artillery fire on a U.N. school merely because enemy combatants fired mortar shells there or in the vicinity. I know this from personal experience. During World War II I hated the terror bombing conducted by the United States and Great Britain. Killing women and children wasn't right then and it isn't right now. There are better ways to achieve a goal.
Saying that members of Hamas fired rockets into Israel is not an excuse for the overkill that has been taking place in Gaza. Firing on a U.N. convoy delivering medical and food supplies to people trapped by the fighting is the work of scoundrels and cowards, not decent men.
Like so many others worldwide, I have lost the respect I formally held for Israel. It is time for the United States to stop supporting that nation regardless of circumstances, time to quit always siding with the Israelis whether they are right or whether they are wrong. Saying they have a right to defend themselves does not say they have the right to indiscriminately kill women and children. Overkill is always wrong.
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Shelagh
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 12:27 pm

This is such a tough one, Dick. Hamas are just as cowardly for using civilian cover to mount their attacks on Israel. I agree that Israel has lost sympathy from the International community but, at the same time, it is hard to feel sympathy for militant fanatics.

If women and children are put into the firing line, who is more to blame, the Israeli soldiers firing the bullets or the Palestinian militants hiding behind the most vulnerable members of their own community? Firing at women and children is inexcusable, as is not doing everything in your power to protect the young, the old and the infirm. I don't agree with Israel's tactics but I don't side with the Palestinians either.

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lin
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 1:20 pm

Personally I think Israel went to far on the day it was created. Actually before that, when they used terrorism to drive Palestinians from their homes and kill British soldiers.

It's a major source of trouble in the whole world and has no justification other than religious beleif.

That said, they've REALLY gone over the line this time. That whole line about, "Well we had to bomb schools and hospitals because we say they're hiding weapons there" is pathetic.

It's a cowardly, evil, terrorist act deliberately targeting children for death and dismemberment.

I REALLY wish the U.S. would stop the billions in foreign aid and military funding we give them.
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lin
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 1:23 pm

It is basically genocide. As was the occupation of Palestine in the beginning.

We tend to be protected from that history and attitude by our media and hisotry books.

Isreael is a churchstate that practices apartheit and genocide and slaughters civilians.

There was just a thread on this on another writer's board and people were saying things like "ALL Palestinians are terrorists and should be killed whatever age they are."

It's pretty disgusting. But few speak out against it because you immediately get branded as anti-semitic and there is a thunder of "Holocaust cards" hitting the table and things get shrill and nasty.
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Shelagh
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 1:33 pm

... but when both sides are wrong, one side cannot claim to be less wrong than the other. It is wrong to use suicide bombings to target innocent Israeli citizens and tourists and it is wrong to fire at Palestinian women and children who are being used to shield terrorists. Both sides are wrong; there is no such thing as less wrong or more wrong.

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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 1:42 pm

This video has just been added to the Published Authors Network. Is there a message in this for me?

http://publishedauthors.ning.com/video/956540:Video:70196

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P. Gordon Kennedy
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 2:29 pm

I do not think we should provide military support to Israel in this mess. It almost seems as if we're supporting Israel for religious reasons. I believe strongly religion should have no role whatsoever in government. I believe nations' governments should be secular institutions and religion should be a personal choice. Israel is in my opinion a religious government and it could be argued that US support of such a religious government constitutes state sponsorship of religion. We should stop blindly supporting Israel and only offer future support if they fully acknowledge the right of Palistine to exist as an independent state and take steps to make their government a secular one. In my opinion, government and religion do not mix and the United States should avoid becomming involved in this mess.
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Dick Stodghill
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 2:57 pm

The guy in the video is a complete idiot, a danger to anyone near him because he has no idea what he's doing.
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lin
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 3:33 pm

... but when both sides are wrong, one side cannot claim to be less wrong than the other.

Actually, it's the way of things. Cops can't say "both us and the criminals are wrong, so it's okay if we torture them".

These are the "party lines" that came out about the schoolhouse attack within a day or so and popping everywhere.

--The Palestinians use "human shields", so it's okay to butcher kids.
--The Hamas are bad and evil, so it's okay to kill civilians because you can't be more wrong than they are.
--The Palestinians voted for Hamas, so it's okay to slaughter them.

I don't buy any of it. And I don't understand people who take ANY position other than: It is WRONG to bomb a school full of kids. Call me simplistic.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 4:11 pm

Conflict in the Gaza strip being used to radicalise young British muslims:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gtmvl/Newsnight_12_01_2009/

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Shelagh
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 4:14 pm

Dick Stodghill wrote:
The guy in the video is a complete idiot, a danger to anyone near him because he has no idea what he's doing.
I think the gun is aimed at me. If I am right, no more information will be added to the page. If I am wrong, the new member will add friends -- I have already sent a friend invitation.

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Pam
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 4:20 pm

Shelagh wrote:
This video has just been added to the Published Authors Network. Is there a message in this for me?

http://publishedauthors.ning.com/video/956540:Video:70196

Shelagh I don't think there is a message there for you. I think it's an idiotic video that someone wants to post wherever they can get away with it.

... but when both sides are wrong, one side cannot claim to be less wrong than the other.

That line I totally agree with Shelagh.

Despite my own history in the army, I have never believed that war is right, or justified. It makes me feel terribly sad that we as human beings continue to treat one another so horribly. It is a sad testimonial to the way that people do not change.
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Carol Troestler
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 4:28 pm

This is long but was sent by the International Red Cross.

FOR THOSE OF YOU INTERESTED TO KNOW…

On December 27, the Government of Israel began a military offensive in Gaza, with the aim of ending Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli soil. This follows a six-month ceasefire between the two parties, which expired on December 19, and is the most serious outbreak of hostilities in the Gaza Strip in decades. A sustained blockade has left hospitals in Gaza ill-equipped to receive mass casualties.

Because of the nature of the conflict, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the lead agency for humanitarian relief efforts.
There are many challenges on the ground and the ICRC mobility is very limited.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) and Israel's equivalent of the Red Cross, Magen David Adom (MDA), are working around the clock to transport the wounded to hospitals, reinforcing medical teams, delivering medical and relief supplies and bringing in spare parts to repair generators.

The ICRC expressed concern today again for the growing number of violent incidents that staff and volunteers are facing. Several attempts to transport wounded civilians and deliver medical supplies had to be abandoned because of the fighting. The PRCS has been forced to evacuate several of its premises in areas where humanitarian needs are often greatest.

The American Red Cross is contributing $250, 000 out of the International Relief Fund to ICRC to use for relief efforts on the ground.

Daily updates are on the website www.icrc.org and also at the www.redcross.org

Gaza: Life-saving ambulances must be given unrestricted access to the wounded

Geneva (ICRC) – Ambulances in Gaza must be given systematic round-the-clock access to the wounded everywhere in the territory so that they can save as many lives as possible, the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), Jakob Kellenberger, said today.

"Medical emergency personnel, particularly from the Palestine Red Crescent Society, must be granted safe unlimited passage so that they can reach the wounded, treat them and, if necessary, evacuate them to a medical facility," Mr Kellenberger said. Israel has said that it will facilitate humanitarian access to the victims of the conflict in Gaza. This implies granting unrestricted access for ambulances and emergency medical personnel.

"We welcome the daily three-hour suspension of hostilities, which has at least temporarily eased the situation of the civilian population," said Mr Kellenberger. "However, it must be possible to evacuate the wounded at all times, not just during three hours." He added that the Israel Defense Forces and Palestinian armed groups are obliged under international humanitarian law to do everything possible to search for, collect and evacuate the wounded and sick, without delay, especially in situations where access for ambulances is not granted for security reasons.

International Humanitarian Law (IHL) also stipulates that medical personnel, hospitals and other medical units must be respected and protected. The same holds for medical vehicles, such as ambulances, exclusively assigned to helping the wounded and sick. Attacks on medical personnel are prohibited, as are attacks on facilities used exclusively for medical tasks.

"These obligations apply to Israel and to the Palestinian armed groups fighting in Gaza," said Mr Kellenberger. "We have already had cases of wounded people dying because the ambulances couldn't reach them in time. If these fundamental rules of international humanitarian law are not respected more people will die who could have been saved."
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Abe F. March
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyTue Jan 13, 2009 10:00 pm

The right and wrong of carving out a piece of land and imposing a State on the indigenous people continues to be debated. Since that occurred, expansionism led to the conflict that continues unabated. Who is retaliating against whom is most often ignored and/or overlooked. Defiance is further aggravated by repression and imprisonment.
I’d better stop here. My latest novel, “They Plotted Revenge,” soon to be released, touches on this subject.
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Carol Troestler
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyWed Jan 14, 2009 6:31 am

This is breaking my heart. I have worked for the Red Cross in the past and have a special place in my heart for all they do, the sadness they see and just keep on working to help people. They get so frustrated when they can help but there are blocks in their way, like people not following rules of humanity, like during Katrina when they were not allowed into New Orleans, but that is another story, but similar all the same, people were dying on the street for lack of water and food, right here in the U.S., when it didn't have to happen.

Anyway, Abe, my feelings are "when more children than soldiers are dying there is something wrong." That isn't my original quote but I cannot remember whose.

It is always the same. One person thinks someone from one country has wronged them and fights back and then they fight back. Does anyone ever think about these things, the consequences of behavior. Those who attacked the US knew we had to attack back. When a government official speak of "winning a war" I cringe. Khrushchev said that "wars are only won when villages are leveled and millions of people are killed." So instead, how about ending wars, bringing about peace, agreeing to live separate but at peace. I know. You are thinking it will never happen.

This just goes straight to my heart. I've walked the Omaha beaches and visited Verdun as well as Civil War battlefields. They are sad, sad places, but touch one's heart and soul and everyone should go there.

Carol
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alj
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyWed Jan 14, 2009 9:26 pm

I came across a Confederate Civil War veteran’s memoir. The writer was a member of my 3rd great-grandfather’s regiment, so it is a very important find in my research for my book. This small excerpt seemed very pertinent. It quaintly expresses the soldier’s ever-present dilemma, whether in 1861 in Missouri or the complicated conflict in today’s Middle East that is being discussed here. I wonder if we will ever find a solution. I remember the words of Herman Wouk's character Pug Henry in War and Remembrance: "Either war is finished, or we are."

Ann
Quote :

RECOLLECTIONS OF A VOLUNTEER
or
FOOTSTEPS OF A SOLDIER



[The author’s ”Introductory Notes” include apologies for his memoir being “very badly written” and “ever I have them published I only intend the following as an outline sketch from which to write another, etc.”]

So on the fifth of July [1861]instead of the fourth of July we were gratified with an engagement, and since that time we were not so very desirous as before of fighting. We had heard the deadly bullet and cannon ball whistle slowly bye; we had seen the fearful bomb shell burst and hurl its fragments around in fearful force; we had seen some of the effects of the murderous grape shot; and we now thought fighting a dreadful reality rather than a playful sport. We had seen our comrades fall by the deadly stroke of lead, and sink into eternity without warning; we had heard the dying groans of the wounded as they were about to leave this world of sin and pass away to the future world; we had beheld brothers striking the death blow to the heart of brothers; we had beheld the mangled corpes and broken limbs of friends thus strewn around; and how could we but reflect upon the dreadful scene and view war not only a deadly reality but a fearful occupation.

After we had encamped and retired to rest I could not but think of our days work and of our present occupation. I thought how unnatural and irrational it was for Adam’s fallen posterity to be persecuting and slaying each other thus; I thought of the scenes of the day; how we had been engaged in wholesale murder and ruin. I thought how we had dealt the death blow to some, and mangled and crippled others; I thought of the unusual efforts we had made to kill, cripple, and capture more; I thought of the fatigue we had undergone, and of the burning thirst and clouds of dust we had encountered which almost suffocated us in order to follow and fight our fellow men; I thought of these things and how wrong they were; yet how could we avoid fighting: To think of them rightly was enough to make anyone opposed to fighting, but we were almost obliged to fight or submit to the slavery and subjugation, to go at the bidding of others and come at their call; for they had already declared their intentions of “subjagating” us, and of “stationing troops when and where they pleased” in order to force us to do their bidding, enter their armies, and go in battle array against our southern brethren to kill and conquer them, lay waste their country and wrest their property from them without recompense. Such were a few of the thoughts that occupied my mind and upon which I meditated until I insensibly fell asleep…”

Peter D. Lane

Honey Creek, Henry County, Missouri
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Dick Stodghill
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 5:54 am

Peter D. Lane was quite a writer. Hope he changed his mind about this being an outline and left it as it was.
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lin
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 8:17 am

AP today reports that Israel has bombed a UN COMPOUND, destroying food, medicine and other humanitarion supplies.

I think those who took seirously the charges that Hamas was using schools and hospitals as firebases (and that it's an excuse for bombing schools) might find it a little harder to beleive that the UN would allow gunners in their compound, especially after the school bombing episode.

I think those who agree with me that the Gaza campaign is a genocide wrapped in rhetoric of self-protection would find the UN shelling as further proof, but I guess that's a question of politics, religion and other systems of blind faith.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 8:43 am

... and the empty nursery that was hit by a Palestinian rocket in Israel before the Israeli bombings, what was that? No lives lost because the children were removed from the nursery before the rocket hit its target. Why are Palestinian women and children not being removed from a war zone?

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Abe F. March
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 9:58 am

Shelagh,
they have no place to go.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 10:13 am

When Britain was being bombarded by German bombs, children were evacuated from targeted English towns and cities to neighbouring Wales. Why are the Palestinian children not being evacuated to neighbouring Arab countries?

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 10:24 am

Shelagh,
If Aid cannot be brought in without approval of the Israelis, how would it be possible to get out, without the approval of the Israelis? Living in a prison leaves few options.


Last edited by Abe F. March on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 10:27 am

It may happen yet:

http://www.diplomatie.be/en/press/homedetails.asp?TEXTID=94401

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P. Gordon Kennedy
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Has Isreal gone too far? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 11:30 am

There seem to be a couple of major problems with Israel. First, they seem unwilling to compermise and negotiate. They seem to want everything to be 100% their way, or else. The second problem is that for all intents and purposes it seems that Israel is a Jewish theocracy. There should be no Jewish states or Christian states or Islamic states or any other religious states. I think all governments should be secular and religion should be a personal choice. I think any kind of theocracy is bad. Government should not be involved in religion at all, because religion is a personal matter.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Has Isreal gone too far?   Has Isreal gone too far? EmptyThu Jan 15, 2009 12:17 pm

Most Israelis are Jewish by birth but don't practise any religion.

"In 1988 two-thirds to three-quarters of Jewish Israelis were not religious or Orthodox in observance or practice. Among the minority of the religious who were the most extreme in their adherence to Judaism - the haredi - the very existence of Israel as a self-proclaimed Jewish state was anathema because Israel is for them (ironically, as it is for many Arabs) a wholly illegitimate entity."

http://atheism.about.com/library/world/AJ/bl_IsraelJudaism.htm

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Has Isreal gone too far? 41ZdcL0lV7L._SL125_ Has Isreal gone too far? 41C9GeFDNWL._SL125_ Has Isreal gone too far? 41%2BmGkZJdOL._SL125_ Has Isreal gone too far? 51eDGllZXhL._SL125_ Has Isreal gone too far? 41y7VHKoszL._SL125_ Has Isreal gone too far? 51Zs4N4T4eL._SL125_
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