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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:31 am

http://www.who.int/whr/2005/media_centre/facts_en.pdf
 
The controversies surrounding the Pro-Lifers continue and have become a political issue.   All Life is sacred, IMV.  I personally don’t consider anything a life until it is born.  I think about the eggs we eat.  Until it is hatched, it is just an egg that we consume. 
 
The Catholic Church, with the current Pope, is slowly changing its tune regarding birth control. Opposition to birth control has created huge problems.  In Africa children are born like rabbits.  Once born, neglect caused by lack of food and disease result in a high rate of death.  Would it not be better if many of these children had not been born than to suffer? 
 
One is not going to change the sex drive, however there are substances that can inhibit it and the military uses it.  http://www.snopes.com/military/saltpeter.asp
 
When a Pro-Life politician act to cut subsidies for child care, it is shameful.  They fight for a cause that allows the child to be born, but then care not what happens to that child after birth. 
 
Those who are opposed to birth control and take no responsibility for the child after birth are despicable.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:43 am

9/12

                     Saw a great bumper sticker and it's so true !


                               " If you can't feed them
                                 Then don't breed them."


                     This is true too many people breeding like rabbits...
                     
                                            Cheers.................Joe................... Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:06 am

True, Joe.
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:11 am

I am for birth control and believe that life begins at conception.
Abortion is therefore murder and should be rare.
Incest and rape should be just causes.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:45 pm

9/12

                  When I went to my Dr.'s last year in the examining room I saw a chart
      for the first time, I guess I never paid attention before because I'm a guy, I looked
      at the chart carefully , it shows a baby from one month to nine months. I have read
      where women have had abortions at 4 months, 5 months and they have an abortion
      if you look at the four month and five month baby it's human, I was shocked and yes
      I felt like crying, to me this is murder ! I read a story yesterday I think CNN about a
      Chinese couple in a town in China, they had one child and she was pregnant with 
      another which is against the law they told her if she didn't abort the child her husband
      would loose his job ( he's a policeman,) and they would loose all their benefits, she is
      eight months pregnant ! To me that's murder ! When I grew up the only thing to stop
      pregnancy 50 years ago was condoms, today their is so many ways to prevent someone
      from getting pregnant there's no excuse, especially young people ! If a woman was to 
      have an abortion at one month or two or she was raped or incest...People have to stop
      breeding like rabbits ...........Another thing I read awhile back many women in certain
      cultures here in the USA get abortions because their husband wants a boy not a girl, I
      found that disgusting to murder an un-born child just because it's not a boy !!!! Here's
      the chart..


                                                          Cheers..................Joe...... Very Happy
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Well said, Joe.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:13 pm

I'm not sure how to articulate what I believe.  I believe first that conception is a biologic shock to the female body and changes are major to every organ, to the brain, to the hormones - and the risk of death to her and the fetus in her womb.  This is an experience no man can conceive at any level no matter how much they may say they "understand." 

I believe it is the right of a female to make the health decisions about her own body.  If she chooses to conceive that is her privilege.  If she chooses to end a pregnancy, that is also her privilege.  If she chooses to have sexual experiences and not risk pregnancy, it is her right to take appropriate measures to prevent pregnancy - before and after such experiences.  It's also her right to demand that the man take precautions to prevent her from diseases and pregnancy or have no relations with that person.

It is the right of a female to say "no" to any advice about her body and that includes any pregnancy just the same as it includes any other change in her body.  No man at any time for any reason has the right to tell a woman what choices she makes with her body.

That said, there are exceptions that include mental incapacity to make decisions, very young children, and perhaps some I have not considered.

Also, I personally believe that abortion as a regular means of birth control or in such late stage pregnancy such that a child at that moment may be born and thrive is not wise and should not be encouraged.  However, these choices remain the choice of the female, not any society, law, religion, man, or anyone else.  

I believe that people will engage in sexual activity.  Therefore, educated nations will include in the training of doctors, nurses, teachers and other professionals including all youth in a nation, the means for preventing sexual diseases and preventing unwanted pregnancy.  That includes information about birth control before and after methods, abortion and the benefits of seeing a pregnancy through to its conclusion for the purpose of adoption.  All choices and all information need to be included for the woman to make an educated decision about her body.

I believe it is criminal that churches insist on women becoming pregnant and producing as many children as possible to gain members for the church - and that is the purpose.  In this modern age to indicate that sexual activity is only for procreation is also criminal.  Health professionals have advice regarding health and the importance of remaining sexually active throughout life - even after children are not generally possible for women.

People in nations where their children are dying and starving need thorough information and resources to prevent pregnancy and prevent diseases from sexual activity.  Information should not be just for the poor and impoverished but part of every education system everywhere.  

It is wrong to malign people in poor countries for the number of children, or to malign specific nationalities for their number of children.  Most are either ignorant, subject to male-dominated religious rules and beliefs, or following the dictates of their church. They need help not condemnation.

Churches need to provide information to their flocks and stop encouraging births without the ability to care for the children.  The churches sure aren't providing for them.  It's time to look around the world and ask if their spiritual leaders favor starving children and emaciated mothers tramping across deserts and dying on the search for water and food.

And then we need to look at all the children without parents who need adoption and make adoptions easier for loving people, single or whatever, who can give a child the security of a home, education and love.  I don't mean that criteria to protect children from crazies and abusive people should be reduced.  Of course potential adopting parents need screening - but mostly to show they are solid individuals with the capacity to provide a loving, secure home without danger or abuse.  Period.

People who can provide homes but whose income is limited may need an income boost - it costs plenty to raise a child without a home.

These are just some random thoughts.  I am not so fixed on an idea or belief that I won't see that exceptions are always a case by case decision.  There was a time when the best hospital in my community was Catholic.  The urban legend was that if the choice were to save the mother or the child, the child would be saved.  I chose a little ole hospital in a neighboring small town where I gave birth and was out of the hospital in less than 24 hours.  It was definitely not catholic.  But I was definitely giving birth naturally so I would be fully aware of any decisions made and be able to make them myself.

I also believe that all life is sacred, including the life of animals and insects and unborn babies and criminals. Therefore, those who believe that abortion is murder must also be in favor of ending capital punishment and also must not allow euthanasia.  That generally is not the case.

It is a moral dilemma regarding the end to a pregnancy; however, that moral dilemma belongs to the woman who has that fetus as a living part of her body.  Whether the abortion is considered murder is up to those who wish to have an opinion.  Whether the mother chooses to have an abortion is the moral decision of that mother and no one else's.  Others can believe what they wish, but they may not legislate the decision about a woman's body that is strictly her decision to make. That is a religious, male-dominated decision that is a denial of a woman's innate right to her own health decisions. 

There was a time when a married woman was considered her husband's property and his right to rape if she chose not to have relations or chose not to be pregnant.  Those barbaric days have ended for the most part.  One remaining remnant is a man believing he has the right to tell a woman what her health choices should be for  her body.

Anyone may have an opinion and voice it.  The decision remains with the woman.  It is her body. No woman can stop a man from having a vasectomy or make him have one.  It is his body.  There is no way to compare child bearing since no man's body experiences that. So long as that fetus is living within the womb, that fetus is part of the woman's body and is not a complete being.  That child is part of the mother.  It is the woman's decision alone whether she completes the pregnancy cycle.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:08 pm

9/12

                        You didn't touch on women who abort because it's not a boy but
    the husband wants boys not girls and that happens right here in our own country!
    I believe both men and women once they have three they should get fixed and
    stop being a baby factory no good for your health...

                                                       Cheers..Joe...... Very Happy
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:47 pm

I have always been a firm believer in birth control…my clash with the powers to be over it was one of the many reasons I left the seminary.  I think it is more of a sin to bring a child into this world that the parents are unable to support and care for, than it is to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.  However I am against abortion as a means of birth control.  There are many health reasons to justify a woman’s right to have an abortion, birth control shouldn’t be one of them.  DK, I agree also that it should be a woman's choice...at the same time I feel a great deal of thought needs to go into making that choice.

JMHO...Like politics and religion, I won’t debate it, just saying how I feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:51 pm

You were in the seminary?  Which one?
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Betty Fasig
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:10 pm

Diane, You speak for me.
Love, Betty
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:22 pm

alice wrote:
You were in the seminary?  Which one?
Maryknoll...Scranton, PA...two years...Roman Catholic...
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:25 pm

I know I did not cover everything. I believe all life is sacred and while the decision to abort is the woman's it is a decision that takes careful consideration of options. But I cannot force my belief on another person.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:12 pm

9/12

                             As the bumper sticker said:

                           " IF YOU CAN'T FEED THEM

                             DON'T BREED THEM !"

                            I believe in that quote ....As they say if people can't control themselves
                            then get yourself fixed and that goes for men and women....

                                                        Cheers........Joe..... Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:48 pm

DK's post is a good summary.  She obviously put much thought into it.  In my view, abortion should be to save the life of the mother, not as a means of birth control.  Rape and incest are the exceptions where abortion would be a fair alternative.  One must think of the child when making decisions of this magnitute and as Diane says, it is the choice of the mother.  If she doesn't want the child conceived by rape, I can't imagine her giving the child the loving care a child deserves.  Better if that child is never born.

The main purpose of the original post was to bring attention to the politicians who claim to be pro-life and then don't give a shit about the child once it is born.  Taking away child-care benefits, school lunches and any other child-related support programs doesn't mesh with their pro-life claims. 
Perhaps the subject would be better clarified if it were labeled:  "Pre-Life" and "Life after birth"

Anyone living on a farm with farm animals have witnessed birth in a natural setting.  They may also have witnessed the difficulty of giving birth where the calf was sacrificed to save the mother.  It is something that occurs daily in our world as a natural event.  I also believe that the life of the human mother takes precedence over an unborn child.  One should separate "born" from "unborn".
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:39 am

It is obvious that politicians make decisions based not on the needs of the nation overall but instead based on the monetary wind at the moment, their desire to stay in their job and their own ego.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:42 am

Amazingly enough civil servants and dedicated people keep putting on bandaida that work better than in many parts of the world.

Children do not pay lobbyists.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:44 am

Children do not contribute to campaigns. Those most in need have no voice.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:04 pm

My husband's grandmother became ill while pregnant, the doctors  were going to take the baby. 
She said, "Do not let them take the baby."

The "baby,"  Dave's mother was born just fine and Dave is here too.
I am so glad.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:09 pm

I really do wish that reason and the need of the people would prevail.  It seems that is not a possible thing as long as vested interest runs the political arena.  I have hope, however, that a wave of reasonable people will take over the established trash that are voted in.  I, myself am working toward that endeavor.  One person, one person, one person, one person until there are many people who will not accept the status quo.  I am one who will not. Everyone needs to raise their voices on the internet and in any way they caN.  It is the only way that change comes.  Love, Betty
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:34 pm

dkchristi wrote:
I'm not sure how to articulate what I believe.  I believe first that conception is a biologic shock to the female body and changes are major to every organ, to the brain, to the hormones - and the risk of death to her and the fetus in her womb.  This is an experience no man can conceive at any level no matter how much they may say they "understand." 
When I told my daughter I'd passed kidney stones she said she'd read that the pain associated with that was about the same as labor pains. I said, "Is that all there is to it? You ladies have been getting away with a lot all these years."
She wasn't amused.

My thoughts about abortion? I wish women wouldn't use abortion as a casual means of birth control. So my friends tell me I'm pro-life. I don't think any such medical procedure is the business of the government. So my friends tell me I'm pro-choice.

Life? Choice? Let's call it what it is. It isn't "pro-choice;" it's pro-abortion; it isn't pro-life; it's anti-abortion. Euphemisms don't change what it is.

When does life begin? To my way of thinking it begins when a new organism forms, whatever the process. When does our responsibility to protect and care for that organism begin? Right away. We are human beings. We aren't supposed to abandon the plight of our own kind or dispose of them simply out of convenience.

They're destined to be hungry? Now there's a problem to tackle. Feed them and provide them the opportunity to live and thrive. Eventually the responsibility for their own welfare passes to them. Let's make sure we've honorably prepared them to do just that.

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not. For of such is the kingdom of God." Words of wisdom and forethought even to this crotchety old agnostic.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:47 pm

9/14

                  I guess people are ignorant ! As I said before :

                  " If you can't feed them , don't breed them." 

                  That simple.......

                                          Cheers...Joe........ Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:19 pm

I think that I mentioned this before, but it seems appropriate to mention again.  When my wife was told by the doctor that she must avoid getting pregnant as it could be life-threatening.  She was taking the pill and still got pregnant.  Her Doctor was in Maryland and we were living in New York at the time.  Our Maryland Doctor said that she should have an abortion, however the Laws in New York prohibited that.  While the debate went back and forth between the Maryland and New York Doctors, the fetus grew.  About the time approval came, it was too late for an abortion.  When it came time for the birth, the Doctors in New York were prepared for blood transfusions and whatever other precautions were deemed necessary.  The child was born, with complications, but born healthy.  That girl is our youngest daugher, living in Virginia and gave us our only grandchildren.  To say that I'm pleased is an understatement.  When I make a post in favor of abortion it is not done without much thought.  A miracle happened.  If it had not been for the extra precautions and preparations at the time of delivery, it could have been fatal.  I still believe in abortions that threaten the life of the mother and/or for an unwanted child as in the case of rape. I never have and don't see abortion as a method of birth control.  Even with precautions as with the pill, it is still not a guarantee against pregnancy.  The pro-life that I prescribe to is for the child that is born.  Taking care of the child so that they can enjoy life with a loving family is central to my beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:55 am

As we can see, abortions have wide spreading ramifications and should not be undertaken  lightly.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Pro Life   Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:12 am

My experience is that abortions are not taken lightly.  I know of no one who uses abortion as a means of birth control.  What knowledgeable woman who has access to easier birth control methods would go through the agony of abortion at any stage?  In a country where abortion was acceptable in their culture as birth control - what can anyone do about that except provide information through the United Nations about alternative methodology?  When information is not provided for alternative birth control, desperate women turn to abortion.  Information is the answer to those who oppose abortion, not closing information clinics.

The same applies to parents who don't want their children provided information.  Their children are not going to abstain because they are ignorant.  They may choose to abstain if they are fully informed.

Education and available methods of birth control are what's needed, not denying people the right to control their birth cycle and prevent sexually transmitted diseases by limiting their sources of information and the medical treatments they need.

An abortion is a medical procedure. Preparation for any medical procedure provides information about alternatives, consequences, etc. as a matter of medical ethics.  

However, people who wish to control other's choices, provide singular solutions based on their singular opinion and rule out the information that is part of informed choices between a woman, her physician, her significant others and her own beliefs.  

Any time access to medical care is limited, desperate people make life-threatening choices and nothing is gained except one more frightened young woman's life is destroyed one way or another by lack of appropriate medical care by a legitimate physician.

The real issue here is the elephant in the room - Planned Parenthood and the carefully edited "gotcha" films about a medical discussion that is  held in physician practices throughout the medical community.  If the public were admitted to the discussions held at closed door "corporate" meetings where they discuss the viability of treatments versus acceptable deaths, they would bypass all modern medicine.
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